I think "casual", in your context, is in regard to how little time a player can commit to any single gaming session.  It's not about the total time needed to reach the goal.  However, the total time to reach goals in the games you listed is very minimal compared to some other games.  If you think those games are too grindy, then you may want to try vending machines.  Insert money.  Get reward.

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by bishbosh

all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

 

I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

they are grindy.

running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

 

I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

Well... What seems like a grind is also highly subjective to the individual. Technically as Bishbosh has pointed out a grind is any mundane repetitive task. MMOs are filled with these. If you enjoy a certain aspect it may not seem like a grind to you but it still is. What may be enjoyable to you may be highly monotonous to someone else. MMOs are getting better at hiding the grind aspects but that doesn't make them any less there. As long as there is character progression in MMOs there will always be some kind of grind to achieve it. You really can't have one without the other.

 

Bren

single player rpgs have character progression without being grindy. take skyrim for example. you do not have to repeat the same dungeon over and over to progress in the game. you do no have to actively seek out materials or flowers for crafting and alchemy, you just sort of acquire them very naturely in a non grindy fashion. 

the single player rpg experience is difficult to emulate in a mmorpg however developers have other tools at hand to make games less grindy. im talking about players, lots of them. rather than instancing everything and isolating players, developers should exploit the relative unpredicability, scope and uniqueness of player-player interactions whether it be trade, pvp, co-operation, compeition to create an experience that is less grindy.

a player is like a mob with a unique 1 billion line  c++ script that governs its behaviour. far more complex and interesting than anything a  developer can create. 

I think devs should just make a big sandbox, give us many tools, and then drop us into the sandbox and let us make our own content. We'll grind if we want to, we'll kill this dude if we want to, we'll do whatever if we want to. Give everyone sticks, lets see what they do with it. Lets put a marketplace right in the middle of this world, lets see what happens. Lets give them an incentive to have them start fighting each other. Devs should just give players tools, then let the players do what they want. Of course there should be some restrictions here and there, but you know what I mean... I hope.

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by bishbosh

all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

 

I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

they are grindy.

running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

 

I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

Well... What seems like a grind is also highly subjective to the individual. Technically as Bishbosh has pointed out a grind is any mundane repetitive task. MMOs are filled with these. If you enjoy a certain aspect it may not seem like a grind to you but it still is. What may be enjoyable to you may be highly monotonous to someone else. MMOs are getting better at hiding the grind aspects but that doesn't make them any less there. As long as there is character progression in MMOs there will always be some kind of grind to achieve it. You really can't have one without the other.

 

Bren

single player rpgs have character progression without being grindy. take skyrim for example. you do not have to repeat the same dungeon over and over to progress in the game. you do no have to actively seek out materials or flowers for crafting and alchemy, you just sort of acquire them very naturely in a non grindy fashion. 

the single player rpg experience is difficult to emulate in a mmorpg however developers have other tools at hand to make games less grindy. im talking about players, lots of them. rather than instancing everything and isolating players, developers should exploit the relative unpredicability, scope and uniqueness of player-player interactions whether it be trade, pvp, co-operation, compeition to create an experience that is less grindy.

a player is like a mob with a unique 1 billion line  c++ script that governs its behaviour. far more complex and interesting than anything a  developer can create. 

How many times did you swing your sword, shoot your bow or cast your spells to get your next level? I do see your point however as the ES games are some of the best around at hiding the grind behind the 'fun'. A lot of single player games are this way. In the first Diablo game levels just sort of happened as another good example. There was a grind but the fun factor hid it well. You were still performing mundane repeditive tasks but in a fun way. Some MMOs are getting to this point but they aren't quite there yet.

Edit: Also the part I highlighted is one way that some of the most grindy games of the past didn't seem so grindy at times. Sure you were killing the same group of mobs over and over again 10,000 times but because you were usually doing it with an interesting group of people it was a lot of fun and the grind aspect seemed to disappear at least for a little while. It's interesting that to move forward in the genre we need to take a step back first. I agree 100%.

Bren

Because the casual people don't grind pvp rank.  They just pvp for the pvp.  Just saying.