Originally posted by bowzef1990

So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?

with that fact that all the current mmo that are pay to play SWTOR, rift  and TERA coming soon ect and that guildwars 2  1 time purchase and the cash shop

 

will this force these companys to change? whats do you guys think will happen will it change the MMO's? give me your opninion

Not sure it will influence payment model much.  There are already many many F2P games with a cash shop that are popular (e.g., LOTRO) so not sure a pay once plus a cash shop will change the payment equation any.  In my view it is somewhere between the F2P with cash shop and the P2P with cosmetic only cash shop models, as opposed to something completely new regarding pricing model.

The biggest influence on the other MMOs will be on features if it is successful as opposed to payment model.  F2P ship with cash shop has sailed long long ago.

Features such as dynamic questing and RvRvR may be its biggest impact...

Here is what i got to say nothing. NO matter how big it becomes nothing happens to other mmo's , Maybe they take some of the gw2 things and put them into the newer models or even into games like wow.

Blizzard has a habit of taken other ideas and making them better. That said wow had almost 14 million players at one time and yet mmo's still got made other mmo's still had players and with gw 2 being a buy to play with cash shop game and not a sub, 

Players can sub to any other game they choose to if they want. so  in the end maybe it makes devs take a few more chances in there designs but other then that not much will change.

Well lets see SWTOR is already out TERA, GW2, TSW and Diablo 3 are coming this year out too. I can´t see any of this listed games take all the attention or players of the others away. It aint 2004 when nothing was around as WoW launched.

MMO genre is not gonna change, because no matter how well it does(it WILL do well) they won't make billions upon billions off of it.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

they will sell a minimum of 5 million at lunch easy!remember that at some point wow and gw totalled 16 million player!

for those two alone!i dont know in what market you refer to bu in america player will twist their schedule!

monday will be blizzard next day will be gw2 next day will be swtor (if they can convince player to stay after the player first 60 day card!

other game?they ll do like they done in the past get the rest of the player!social game will still thrive insanelly at facbook!

5 Million on launch i dunno if u are to dumb or fanboyism has taken over your brain. Big Block Buster Titles like Halo, Mass Efect 3 and others aint selling 5 Million on launch day or week. I dunno how gw2 could pull this out.

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.

Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.

The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.

With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.

The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.

Originally posted by bowzef1990

i agree with you 100% but i feel this soo called " Sub " is just way cow cash as quick as possible

lets be honest the box sales/ digital sales is enough money for any MMO and seems like Anet have proven that due to over all quaility by looks of guildwars 2 and that development of guildwars 2 is based on guildwars 1 purchases and so forth.

it just goes to show that most theses companys don't care about the customer anymore or about there product its not about making a good game now days its about the money

 I don't agree, sub games as long as they don't charge for expansions are perfectly fine. Using TERA for example, you're paying for the sub but they have yet to charge for any expansions, whereas in GW2 you will most likely be charged another box fee for each expansion.

Things like WoW I do not agree with, expansion/subs fees, $20+ dollar fees for things like server transfer, gender change, faction change, and then also selling cosmetics in a cash shop...

Seriously Blizzard, you don't deserve your subs, they spoil you.

Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything,  It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by bowzef1990

i agree with you 100% but i feel this soo called " Sub " is just way cow cash as quick as possible

lets be honest the box sales/ digital sales is enough money for any MMO and seems like Anet have proven that due to over all quaility by looks of guildwars 2 and that development of guildwars 2 is based on guildwars 1 purchases and so forth.

it just goes to show that most theses companys don't care about the customer anymore or about there product its not about making a good game now days its about the money

 I don't agree, sub games as long as they don't charge for expansions are perfectly fine. Using TERA for example, you're paying for the sub but they have yet to charge for any expansions, whereas in GW2 you will most likely be charged another box fee for each expansion.

 

Things like WoW I do not agree with, expansion/subs fees, $20+ dollar fees for things like server transfer, gender change, faction change, and then also selling cosmetics in a cash shop...

 

Seriously Blizzard, you don't deserve your subs, they spoil you.

10.2m people at least, disagree with you however..

Blizzard at least didnt go the Everquest/Everquest 2 route,  releasing .. how many expansions 16, 18, 20.. i forget exactly but there were 'many' of them, barely a year went by without releasing 2, and its not like they were free. SOE were undoubtedly masters of the nickle and dime..  Blizzard by comparison actually give far more value in their expansions

Originally posted by Phry

Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything,  It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.

You're wrong. GW2 may change things, and it may not. GW1 didn't change anything, because it was pretty lame. 

WoW, on the other hand, changed how companies make MMOs. Every MMO has tried to copy WoW almost to a T. Talents, battlegrounds, quest running, dailies, daily dungeons, meaningless level ground, and with very little variation.

If GW2 is a huge success companies will try to copy the formula, if it does indeed differ from WoW - which, honestly, is the only way a game will ever top WoW. If GW2 is another WOW clone, then, no, it won't change anything. 

Not sure what you mean that is has no economical influence. I don't think you know what that statement means, because it could have a huge influence on the market. And it may not.

If crazy successful? I fully expect Rift to be the first one to copy any new concepts they bring. Blizzard will try and fail terribly. Personally hope GW2 bleeds WoW dry on subs.

It will bring into question the raiding model and also if B2P is actually viable model to deliver content. Up to this point it has proven you can poduce a sub par CORPG that you can not jump in. My faith is tested in ArenaNET when you could even jump in Pitfall on the Atari..just saying

Originally posted by tkoreaper

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.

Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.

The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.

With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.

The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.

I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content?  Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.  

I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.

If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you  get your  moneys worth with a sub more power to you. 

Originally posted by Golelorn

Originally posted by Phry

Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything,  It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.

You're wrong. GW2 may change things, and it may not. GW1 didn't change anything, because it was pretty lame. 

WoW, on the other hand, changed how companies make MMOs. Every MMO has tried to copy WoW almost to a T. Talents, battlegrounds, quest running, dailies, daily dungeons, meaningless level ground, and with very little variation.

If GW2 is a huge success companies will try to copy the formula, if it does indeed differ from WoW - which, honestly, is the only way a game will ever top WoW. If GW2 is another WOW clone, then, no, it won't change anything. 

 

Not sure what you mean that is has no economical influence. I don't think you know what that statement means, because it could have a huge influence on the market. And it may not.

economical influence, ie.. how much profit it can generate, if its just down to box sales, which GW2 is, and isnt, then influence is limited to initial purchase,  i can easily see people buying gw2 and still being subbed to other games, which means it has no influence on game subscriptions etc, choosing one over the other isnt going to happen, at least from a financial viewpoint. Personally i dont think things will change until games evolve again, WoW cornered the market so to speak with their evolution of MMO's, nothing i've seen so far though indicates that GW2 is the next 'evolution' of MMO's so, again, i don't see GW2 changing anything. On the other hand, its more likely to succeed than SW;TOR, all things considered

Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by tkoreaper

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.

Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.

The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.

With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.

The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.

I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content?  Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.  

I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.

If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you  get your  moneys worth with a sub more power to you. 

I agree with most you said, GW2 is Buy2Play (B2P), and in the past with GW1 it has worked pretty well and ther ehave been many Content expansions at appropriate times.

That being said however there are many SUB games that offer expansions Free. EVE is one and has done this since its launch, Lineage II is another, WWIIOnline yet another and I am sure there are others too. Not every company out there is Greedy to the point of Selling New Expansions on top of charging a Sub.

I can understand thata  Sub based model does not appeal to the younger demographic of the playerbase. And that is in my opinion where the bulk of it sits at this point hence F2P and even B2P have a better chance to have more players.

Yet there are some pitfalls, P2W models repulse players of all ages...

And there is still a possibility that GW2 may opt for something like that...butthey would as you say shoot themselves on the foot if they do it. I am hoping that in their wisdom as demonstrated by their approach to the Themepark model containing innovative ways to eliminate the associated "boring" elements of it, that they would also not fall in to the trap of P2W model.

We shall see soon enough.

In the end for me it comes out the same. I stay away from P2W games, and the F2P games that do not employ P2W tactics, I am willing to consume microtransactions for around the same value it would cost me for a Sub.

But F2P has the advantage where as an MMO can have many more players playing it and thus offer the intended experience of an MMO compared to a Sub game that excludes all of the players who could not afford the Sub.

So slowly F2P (made right) and B2P models are taking over for sure the Traditional SUB based game model.

And I agree this will end up being the future, at this point however Subs are not yet out of the table, because most F2P games are not doing it right.

Nothing more than what is allredy happening,GW2 succsess will not change anything,games keep changing all the time and will do so forever,othervise we dont need new games.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Golelorn

Originally posted by Phry

Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything,  It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.

You're wrong. GW2 may change things, and it may not. GW1 didn't change anything, because it was pretty lame. 

WoW, on the other hand, changed how companies make MMOs. Every MMO has tried to copy WoW almost to a T. Talents, battlegrounds, quest running, dailies, daily dungeons, meaningless level ground, and with very little variation.

If GW2 is a huge success companies will try to copy the formula, if it does indeed differ from WoW - which, honestly, is the only way a game will ever top WoW. If GW2 is another WOW clone, then, no, it won't change anything. 

 

Not sure what you mean that is has no economical influence. I don't think you know what that statement means, because it could have a huge influence on the market. And it may not.

economical influence, ie.. how much profit it can generate, if its just down to box sales, which GW2 is, and isnt, then influence is limited to initial purchase,  i can easily see people buying gw2 and still being subbed to other games, which means it has no influence on game subscriptions etc, choosing one over the other isnt going to happen, at least from a financial viewpoint. Personally i dont think things will change until games evolve again, WoW cornered the market so to speak with their evolution of MMO's, nothing i've seen so far though indicates that GW2 is the next 'evolution' of MMO's so, again, i don't see GW2 changing anything. On the other hand, its more likely to succeed than SW;TOR, all things considered

It can and will still have an influence on subs and saying "no" is ignorant. If im playing GW2 non stop like a crack head why would i CONTINUE to give another company money when i am not playing their product or not having fun? Will everyone choose one or the other, no but to say it won't have an effect on other subs period is ignorant ESPECIALLY if its really the "messiah" of all new MMO's. Maybe its that thinking is why so many people are running out of money these days. If i like GW2 and truly like it i will drop my sub to which ever game at the time atleast in the beginng because i know thats where my gametime loyalty will lie and i have a job and family so i dont have 40hrs a week for gaming so there is no point in me, and i msure many others are in the same boat, giving some company 15 dollars for a game we don't like.

Now GW2 won't have as great as an effect on subs as most P2P MMO's then your logic would be correct but again if your not rich, if mommy & daddy dont still pay for your games, if your time is precious, and ofcourse if your friends/guild loyalty is in GW2 and it turns out to be as amazing as everyone HOPES then yes there still will be a significant sub loss in other games if not only to say HEY this is how you make a game now. Thats alot of if's i know but not imposibble. Now if its like GW1, a good game, but still mediocore and prob would be alot wore as a p2p game then no, you probably won't see any significant sub loss.

Thats my "common" sense because i don't like to waste my money nor pay a sub for something i don't use but then again who knows everyone seems to have different priorities.

Here are the important points you need to observe:

1.) The B2P model naturally generates MUCH LESS revenue than the P2P model for developers, publishers, etc.

2.) Guild Wars 2, in order to attract the big boys, (meaning, in order to prove to the large publishers, like EA, that their business model is better, therefore leading to "cloning"), has to not only generate a very large amount of revenue, but it also has to significantly impact large P2P games' subscriptions, like SWTOR, WoW, and Rift.

If (lets suppose) Guild Wars 2 gets 5 million players, but P2P games still maintain their massive revenue, then nothing will change with respect to the large publishers and their favored business model for their games. Guild Wars 2 needs to not only attract a lot of players, but it also has to take away a lot of players from other P2P games.

In other words, GW2 needs to endanger P2P games, financially, in order to be cloned (business model-wise).

Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by tkoreaper

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.

Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.

The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.

With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.

The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.

I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content?  Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.  

I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.

If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you  get your  moneys worth with a sub more power to you. 

What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.

I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.

Originally posted by tkoreaper

Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by tkoreaper

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.

Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.

The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.

With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.

The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.

I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content?  Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.  

I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.

If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you  get your  moneys worth with a sub more power to you. 

What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.

I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.

The game it's self is not free to play...

Free to play means: you don't give a penny and you can download the client, install it, make an account and start playing...

Buy to play means: you pay for the box which gives you the product code which you then use to create your account, download your client, install it and then play it without a monthly fee... 

Learn the difference, it's important!

GW didn't get content only trough expansions, they were putting out new dungeons, items, quests regularly trough patches for free... Updates and bug fixes is not classified as content, we're not retarded. So it's not correct what you said for history of GW1.

The fact that majority of content was in a form of expansion is true (WOW does the same thing, and even charges you a monthly fee with minimum content in the mean time) but we were given new content regularly and it wasn't "small amount". Even now we're getting new content every month or so without a fee...

So as I said, "the most successfull mmorpg today" (aka wow) doesn't give you quality updates and content much sooner and more often... They give you alot of content with an expansion, and between 2 of the expansions you get like 1 or 2 dungeons to refresh the content... So as you said it, they do not deserve a penny.. But then again, even AION gave new expansions for free to existing subscribers, and I think EVE is on that list as well... 

If you say Rift is doing it good then I trust you, and I think EVE has always been good to their customers... But there's a lot of companies which look only for profit and how to screw their players, which really pisses me off. :D

Originally posted by stealthbr

Here are the important points you need to observe:

1.) The B2P model naturally generates MUCH LESS revenue than the P2P model for developers, publishers, etc.

2.) Guild Wars 2, in order to attract the big boys, (meaning, in order to prove to the large publishers, like EA, that their business model is better, therefore leading to "cloning"), has to not only generate a very large amount of revenue, but it also has to significantly impact large P2P games' subscriptions, like SWTOR, WoW, and Rift.

If (lets suppose) Guild Wars 2 gets 5 million players, but P2P games still maintain their massive revenue, then nothing will change with respect to the large publishers and their favored business model for their games. Guild Wars 2 needs to not only attract a lot of players, but it also has to take away a lot of players from other P2P games.

In other words, GW2 needs to endanger P2P games, financially, in order to be cloned (business model-wise).

See this i semi-agree with this what everyone isn't realising is if GW2 is suscessful hugely with a huge amount of active long term players even if they don't see a lost in subs it does not mean they won't clone it. Infact everyone thinking GW2 will change all P2P games into B2P is kinda making themselves blind. LEts be honest lets use EA, if GW2 is suscefull with well your 5 million subs but SWTOR subs stayed the same they may very well clone GW2 style just as other big companies but make it P2P because people will still pay more just to play something new even if its a new skin with a few new mechanics. Thats what i see happening if anything i don't see a company like EA going B2P unless it becomes like pay 10 dollars for a 30 pass on a certain event in the game because honestly Anet might not go P2Win or pay 2 enjoy w/e term you want but other companies definetly will because they know eventually gamers will want A new game and will probably pay monthly for it just because they burned out on the other (GW2). 

Ofcourse thats what i think i just don't see major developers going full B2P model like GW1 and thats saying that GW2 will even stick to it as well as GW1 did (as in P2W items and such). Because honestly i think its been proven with many games you can charge more for the same, even lesser quality products or slightly better (rare) but gamers usually pay just to have something new especially MMO players. Ofcourse not all companies are like this all model have their perks not everything needs to be one or the other it depends on the game and developer tbh wich will work best.

Again GW2 might suck so much balls and no one will play it lol who really knows not even the developers don't know (if they did then only good games would ever be released).