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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Bethesda to Announce Elder Scrolls MMO in May

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  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 12:13:53 AM#101
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by DAS1337

How about a Sandbox with theme-park elements?  Why does it have to be your way?  Why can themeparks have sandbox elements, but sandboxes can't have themepark elements?

 

Full PvP, Full Loot, Skill based, not class based, un-instanced open world, meaningful control of territory, meaningful player crafting, lack of epic loot, and so on.  Just because it may have quests, arena combat, and dungeons wouldn't mean it's no longer a sandbox.

 

FPV and twitch combat works in single player games, but it doesn't in MMO's.  It wouldn't be a bad sacrifice to have TPV(which skyrim has) and tab-targetting combat with some freeform melee with non-targetted skills and abilities.  I personally can't stomach Oblivion because of the FPV.  I'm certainly not the only one that would be fine with that change.  MMO's and tab-targetting (Wow-style) combat simply work best.  You can keep everything else the same.  You'll have to rework the spells and skills in the MMO, but it's not like they didn't do that for Skyrim. 

 

I don't see much of an issue here.

It doesn't have to be my way, and in all likelyhood it won't be exactly as I described it, I don't posess any knowledge that others don't. But, there is no indication that it will be a sandbox/themepark full of meaningful crafting, territory control, FFA PvP with full loot or any features that have become synonymous with sandbox. People just want those features to be in it, they hope that it might feature them because the singleplayer games have an open world and open character creation/progression.

 

I'm just going off what exists in the singleplayer games and the current most popular MMO model, as that is most likely what they're going to be modeling the game after. I just have a feeling that it's going to be closer to WoW than UO. Assuming they don't gut the IP and take out everything that makes ES (FPV, classless, open world, etc.) then it will have some sandbox features, but it will still be a themepark.

I think if you take the entire game as a whole and ask someone whether it's a sandbox or themepark oriented game, the answer is obvious.  So yes, indications would be that a MMO with the ES IP would gravitate closer to sandbox than themepark.  The opposite is nearly impossible to argue.

 

It may end up being closer to WoW.  I personally don't have that opinion, but it's possible.  Though, again, you are confusing me with the FPV bit.  The first four games had FPV.  The last, Skyrim, had a very functional TPV.  So, by their design, ES isn't ES because of FPV.  And again, it can have some themepark features, but still be a sandbox.  You did it again.

 

Neither one of us know how they are designing it.  In fact, neither one of us knows whether or not this article is even true.  We can wait and see.  I'm not about to attach 'fail' to it yet though.

  Maldach

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/05
Posts: 396

3/16/12 12:16:20 AM#102

The only developer left from Mythic who hasn't ruined his reputation is working on this one. Maybe he was the guy with all the good ideas (that's what most ex-DAoC fans hope for).

3-faction system is good.

 

 

No modders to fix the broken/half-assed/poorly realized game designs.

The WoW influence is stronger than heroin in MMO development. Can Bethesda resist?

If they use a DX9 engine again, they can kindly fuck themselves sideways.

Bethesda have been Microsoft's console bitch since they bailed the 360 out with a AAA title for the launch. Do they remember how to make a proper PC game?

Will they listen to the only developer left from Mythic who hasn't ruined his reputation? He may be the guy with all the good ideas after all.

 

  Mithrandolir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1694

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

3/16/12 12:18:36 AM#103
Originally posted by Sovrath

"We'll see"

Sorry but I'm a huge fan of the elderscroll series and this could so easily go south. So "we'll see".

 

^ this

Sums up my exact feelings.

This could be epic and awesome, or it could just as easily be a major let down. I'm done investing emotion into unrealeased titles anymore, so I'll stay neutral on this one until I get to see it in operation. 

  User Deleted
3/16/12 12:19:36 AM#104
Originally posted by Maldach

The only developer left from Mythic who hasn't ruined his reputation is working on this one. Maybe he was the guy with all the good ideas (that's what most ex-DAoC fans hope for).

3-faction system is good.

 

  That's so not true (and you know it, if you know where any of the 'ex'- DAOC devs are)

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17111

3/16/12 12:22:34 AM#105
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Nobadeeftw
Originally posted by Mephster

Please let it be a sandbox mmo. Tired of all the theme parks!

 

Sandbox MMOs don't sell well in the US; so, it would more than likely be a cheezy themepark ride.

EVE?

UO?

SWG?

 

Other than EVE, there hasn't been a single sandbox MMO that was made well since UO and SWG.  This is a great opportunity to finally show all you sandbox haters that sandboxes are not as niche as you think.  Perhaps we will finally see the first AAA sandbox MMO.

whoa. UO and SWG were made and sold at a different time in the "era" of mmo's. They were early games and were adopted by geeks who just loved the idea of playing online games. The landscape has changed now. Does that mean a sandbox game would do poorly? Well, when I read in lotro chat that a player found the game too unfocused and needed more guidance to find the quest hubs it makes me wonder.

If you are going to make an assessment about whether or not sandbox games would do well you might want to consider what the current audience is about.

EVE is it's own bird, is successful for many reasons but I doubt that it being a sandbox game is the only reason. Also, it was made at an earlier time, garnered a loyal following and built from there.

 

  Maldach

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/05
Posts: 396

3/16/12 12:24:15 AM#106
Originally posted by Eliandal
Originally posted by Maldach

The only developer left from Mythic who hasn't ruined his reputation is working on this one. Maybe he was the guy with all the good ideas (that's what most ex-DAoC fans hope for).

3-faction system is good.

 

  That's so not true (and you know it, if you know where any of the 'ex'- DAOC devs are)

Yeah, yeah, Dominus has potential, but I can't see them being financially stable throughout development. Expect lots of corner cutting to get it out the door.

  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1017

Kill Your Heroes

3/16/12 12:33:42 AM#107
Originally posted by DAS1337

I think if you take the entire game as a whole and ask someone whether it's a sandbox or themepark oriented game, the answer is obvious.  So yes, indications would be that a MMO with the ES IP would gravitate closer to sandbox than themepark.  The opposite is nearly impossible to argue.

 

It may end up being closer to WoW.  I personally don't have that opinion, but it's possible.  Though, again, you are confusing me with the FPV bit.  The first four games had FPV.  The last, Skyrim, had a very functional TPV.  So, by their design, ES isn't ES because of FPV.  And again, it can have some themepark features, but still be a sandbox.  You did it again.

 

Neither one of us know how they are designing it.  In fact, neither one of us knows whether or not this article is even true.  We can wait and see.  I'm not about to attach 'fail' to it yet though.

I think that's where we differ, if someone were to ask me, I wouldn't call it a complete sandbox. It has some sandboxy things, gives you more freedom than some games, but it's not a full on sandbox. Everything you do in the game is developer created, you can roam the world created by the devs, do the quests and see they're outcomes and effects on the world, which are all created by the devs, or explore dungeons created by the devs. You don't do much that the devs didn't intend.

 

If you want to nock down a mountain, you can't, if you want to create new dungeons and cave systems, you can't. You can't destroy towns or cities, you can't build new ones. Outside of mass genocide you can't really do anything to the world that the devs didn't intend.

 

So, is it a sandbox? Yeah, somewhat, I think I would call it an open world, but everyone has different definitions for everything.

 

But, back to my original point, I just think people should take the wait and see approach before they start jumping for joy over the new FFA full loot, territory control sandbox elder scrolls MMO comming out. It may very well not be anything like that, in which case they're just setting themselves up for disappointment.

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 12:38:46 AM#108
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Nobadeeftw
Originally posted by Mephster

Please let it be a sandbox mmo. Tired of all the theme parks!

 

Sandbox MMOs don't sell well in the US; so, it would more than likely be a cheezy themepark ride.

EVE?

UO?

SWG?

 

Other than EVE, there hasn't been a single sandbox MMO that was made well since UO and SWG.  This is a great opportunity to finally show all you sandbox haters that sandboxes are not as niche as you think.  Perhaps we will finally see the first AAA sandbox MMO.

whoa. UO and SWG were made and sold at a different time in the "era" of mmo's. They were early games and were adopted by geeks who just loved the idea of playing online games. The landscape has changed now. Does that mean a sandbox game would do poorly? Well, when I read in lotro chat that a player found the game too unfocused and needed more guidance to find the quest hubs it makes me wonder.

If you are going to make an assessment about whether or not sandbox games would do well you might want to consider what the current audience is about.

EVE is it's own bird, is successful for many reasons but I doubt that it being a sandbox game is the only reason. Also, it was made at an earlier time, garnered a loyal following and built from there.

 

I do, the same audience that purchased millions of copies of Skyrim, which by the way is a sandbox game.  Yes, single player, but still everything most sandboxes have minus the FFA PvP and full loot because it's, well, single player.

 

Take a look at these forums.  Take a look at any forum.  There are more than enough FFA PVP and full loot supporters out there to make this game successful.  That's if they even go that route.  Which they should if they want to stay true to what ES is about.

 

UO and SWG are considered the best of the sandbox games to this day.  I wasn't one of those geeks.  I wasn't a D&D guy.  All I did was play counterstrike all day.  To this day, UO is still my favorite MMO because of the core concepts in it.  There are millions of people who would play a AAA sandbox game.  Would they stay?  Maybe not all of them.  But if EVE can hold around 300k subscribers in a mining sandbox.  I see no reason why a good fantasy sandbox MMO couldn't have more than that.  It's only logic.

 

You act like the old gamers are dead.  Dude, it's been ten years.  I'm still alive.  I'm still in my 20's.  We are all still here, we have just been waiting.  Millions played UO.  Millions wait.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

3/16/12 12:39:20 AM#109
Originally posted by Maldach

Bethesda have been Microsoft's console bitch since they bailed the 360 out with a AAA title for the launch. Do they remember how to make a proper PC game?

> assuming that this isn't a multi platform game

Just sayin

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 12:44:37 AM#110
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by DAS1337

I think if you take the entire game as a whole and ask someone whether it's a sandbox or themepark oriented game, the answer is obvious.  So yes, indications would be that a MMO with the ES IP would gravitate closer to sandbox than themepark.  The opposite is nearly impossible to argue.

 

It may end up being closer to WoW.  I personally don't have that opinion, but it's possible.  Though, again, you are confusing me with the FPV bit.  The first four games had FPV.  The last, Skyrim, had a very functional TPV.  So, by their design, ES isn't ES because of FPV.  And again, it can have some themepark features, but still be a sandbox.  You did it again.

 

Neither one of us know how they are designing it.  In fact, neither one of us knows whether or not this article is even true.  We can wait and see.  I'm not about to attach 'fail' to it yet though.

I think that's where we differ, if someone were to ask me, I wouldn't call it a complete sandbox. It has some sandboxy things, gives you more freedom than some games, but it's not a full on sandbox. Everything you do in the game is developer created, you can roam the world created by the devs, do the quests and see they're outcomes and effects on the world, which are all created by the devs, or explore dungeons created by the devs. You don't do much that the devs didn't intend.

 

If you want to nock down a mountain, you can't, if you want to create new dungeons and cave systems, you can't. You can't destroy towns or cities, you can't build new ones. Outside of mass genocide you can't really do anything to the world that the devs didn't intend.

 

So, is it a sandbox? Yeah, somewhat, I think I would call it an open world, but everyone has different definitions for everything.

 

But, back to my original point, I just think people should take the wait and see approach before they start jumping for joy over the new FFA full loot, territory control sandbox elder scrolls MMO comming out. It may very well not be anything like that, in which case they're just setting themselves up for disappointment.

Name a sandbox MMO where you can do all those things that you mentioned.  How can 'your' definition of sandbox include those when it doesn't exist?  You can't make a definition based on something that doesn't exist.  Don't give me some off the wall multiplayer game that barely anyone plays.  Also, don't even mention minecraft.  It's not even in the same catagory.  You are arguing just to argue. 

 

ES is a sandbox.  All sandbox MMO's are made by developers.  All sandbox content on those games are made by developers or are made to be affected by players by developers.  Without a developer, there is no mountain.  I have no clue where you are going there.  No MMO survives without developer support.  In fact, no MMO exists without developer support.  If players develop it, then those players are the developers. 

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

3/16/12 12:48:38 AM#111

I REALLY hope not. It better not be anything more than a rumor.

Seriously, all Bethesda needs to do is have coop multiplayer add on to ES6. A feature that could be scaled up to hold more players later and if it is possible. But jumping right into an Elder Scrolls online is going to be fatal.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 12:50:40 AM#112
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I REALLY hope not. It better not be anything more than a rumor.

Seriously, all Bethesda needs to do is have coop multiplayer add on to ES6. A feature that could be scaled up to hold more players later and if it is possible. But jumping right into an Elder Scrolls online is going to be fatal.

There are already mods in the works for Skyrim Online. 

 

If a MMO adopted the same systems as they are in Skyrim, it would be a largely broken multiplayer game.

  neorandom

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 1753

3/16/12 12:53:30 AM#113

terrible idea, elder scrolls open skill system + mmo = broken and impossible to balance.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3481

3/16/12 12:55:09 AM#114

We are getting close to 1 April. Is this the only source? :p

  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1017

Kill Your Heroes

3/16/12 12:58:13 AM#115
Originally posted by DAS1337

Name a sandbox MMO where you can do all those things that you mentioned.  How can 'your' definition of sandbox include those when it doesn't exist?  You can't make a definition based on something that doesn't exist.  Don't give me some off the wall multiplayer game that barely anyone plays.  Also, don't even mention minecraft.  It's not even in the same catagory.  You are arguing just to argue. 

 

ES is a sandbox.  All sandbox MMO's are made by developers.  All sandbox content on those games are made by developers or are made to be affected by players by developers.  Without a developer, there is no mountain.  I have no clue where you are going there.  No MMO survives without developer support.

Whoa, I'm not trying to argue here, I thought we were having a discussion. If you want to bring this down to a simple pissing contenst then I'll just step out of the conversation. If you don't want Minecraft mentioned, that's fair I guess. I'll just say that there are plenty of games more sandboxy than TES that do allow you to do those things I mentioned, and more.

 

As for MMOs, Wurm, Xsyon, Haven & Hearth, Salem, etc. Maybe you havn't heard of them, and maybe they don't have hundreds of thousands of players, but they do exist.

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 12:58:30 AM#116
Originally posted by neorandom

terrible idea, elder scrolls open skill system + mmo = broken and impossible to balance.

Why?

 

Esplain yourself.  You can't just make wild claims without actually being able to back up your reasoning.

  Corehaven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 1574

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

3/16/12 1:01:43 AM#117

Oh God....... and after Howard said they were not interested in MMOs and thats not the kind of game they are interested in making. 

 

There goes my favorite IP.   Im all well and good with mmos.  However compared to single player games they are often dubbed way down in comparison.  I also highly doubt the graphical quality of the mmo will match the past games we've been enjoying and playing.  

 

Horrible.  I feel like I just lost a piece of myself.  Or like my favorite celebrity died.  Awful.  Horrendous.  This will likely also ruin the series I loved so much.  Will you see more single player Elder Scrolls games thats a proud tradition of the series?  Doubful.  You'll get the mmo.  And they'll work on that for many years.  If there is another Elder Scrolls game after that, it will likely also be a sequel mmorpg. 

 

Once this goes mmo I dont see it going back, and I LIKED, hell....even LOVED Elder Scrolls just the way it was.  A single player world I could explore, live in, and enjoy.  I guess Skyrim is the last.  Sad day.  Really sad indeed. 

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

3/16/12 1:04:46 AM#118
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I REALLY hope not. It better not be anything more than a rumor.

Seriously, all Bethesda needs to do is have coop multiplayer add on to ES6. A feature that could be scaled up to hold more players later and if it is possible. But jumping right into an Elder Scrolls online is going to be fatal.

There are already mods in the works for Skyrim Online. 

 

If a MMO adopted the same systems as they are in Skyrim, it would be a largely broken multiplayer game.

I recall Oblivion multiplayer mods in the works too but we know how that didn't turn out.

ok? I never said a MMO should be made. What do you mean by same systems anyway?

 

Originally posted by someforumguy

We are getting close to 1 April. Is this the only source? :p

Good call. A bit early on the April fools though.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

3/16/12 1:05:44 AM#119


Originally posted by DAS1337


Originally posted by neorandom
terrible idea, elder scrolls open skill system + mmo = broken and impossible to balance.


Why?
 
Esplain yourself.  You can't just make wild claims without actually being able to back up your reasoning.

Kind of easy to explain, and legit concerns.

I think Bethesda's aware of these problems tho'.

1. They make buggy games. All of them have had their issues. Fallout 3 wasn't too bad for me personally, New Vegas I saw knees attacking me in mid air.. Daggerfall there were a number of quests without ends (tho' quests functioned differently / better back then), Morrowind similar bugs here and there, Skyrim my girlfriend's character constantly froze at one scene. Figured it'd do it to me and I'd cry, but no. I got pass it just fine in the main story. SOOOOOOO their track record on stability, shaken at best.

Now how do ES games generally progress? Well you eventually become the baddest MOFO in town. It used to be a very solitary ordeal and if you pure built warrior or rogue you needed a million health potions to get anything done. So magetanks were plenty abound.

Then you have TES games increasingly shrinking in a way. The spells used to be quite open ended, you could float and hover, carry polearms, craft your own this and that item of bad assery. Really it didn't matter if it balanced out in the end. The end bosses were generally either too easy or too hard unless you out level them crazily.

So they don't have any sense of balance, and MMOers crave it. If someone, so help them god, is even 1 dps point higher than them; the forums explode with a crazy amount of whinery type input.

It's going to be a shaky situation.

Luckily tho', I have at least some hope that these are quite familiar issues to ZeniMax.

The problem is, in addressing these issues, will there be any soul left in the series?

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/16/12 1:05:59 AM#120
Originally posted by Unreal024
Originally posted by DAS1337

Name a sandbox MMO where you can do all those things that you mentioned.  How can 'your' definition of sandbox include those when it doesn't exist?  You can't make a definition based on something that doesn't exist.  Don't give me some off the wall multiplayer game that barely anyone plays.  Also, don't even mention minecraft.  It's not even in the same catagory.  You are arguing just to argue. 

 

ES is a sandbox.  All sandbox MMO's are made by developers.  All sandbox content on those games are made by developers or are made to be affected by players by developers.  Without a developer, there is no mountain.  I have no clue where you are going there.  No MMO survives without developer support.

Whoa, I'm not trying to argue here, I thought we were having a discussion. If you want to bring this down to a simple pissing contenst then I'll just step out of the conversation. If you don't want Minecraft mentioned, that's fair I guess. I'll just say that there are plenty of games more sandboxy than TES that do allow you to do those things I mentioned, and more.

 

As for MMOs, Wurm, Xsyon, Haven & Hearth, Salem, etc. Maybe you havn't heard of them, and maybe they don't have hundreds of thousands of players, but they do exist.

Those games have developers.  So, you argued against yourself.  By your definition, they aren't sandboxes.  You used the word 'allow'.  Who allows?  Ah, developers.  What are we discussing here?  Oh yes, that ES is a sandbox RPG.  Case closed.  Your definition, in my opinion, isn't reasonable.  As sandboxes do not exist by your definition.  This is not a conversation that can continue, because I now know that sandboxes are simply a figment of my imagination.. It's something that I thought up in my spare time.  Apparently, a lot of other people have spare time too..

 

Anyways.  ES can be done while still retaining what makes it so popular.  It won't, nay, can't be exactly the same as Skyrim.  It can be close though.  I, for one, am going to watch this with much interest. 

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