Trending Games | Swordsman | ArcheAge | World of Warcraft | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,736,824 Users Online:0
Games:714  Posts:6,175,565
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The evils of a fair fight

9 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
161 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 2:21:33 AM#21
Originally posted by ActionMMORPG
Originally posted by Creslin321

In old school RPGs like early Final Fantasy games, the Ultima Series (including UO), or Everquest, if you wandered off the beaten path slightly, you may wind up meeting mobs that will hand you your behind on a silver platter.

I love the addition of risk in gaming, especially unpredictable risk.

 

Agreed completely.

The Wizardry series and even Bard's Tale offered that, as well. I enjoyed straying from the path primarily to see what kind of trouble I could find.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

3/15/12 2:34:33 AM#22
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Cuathon


The original demographic wanted to Role Play. Your demographic wants to do esport PvP. Farmville is the new wave.

I think that where we got lost is that we wanted to get new players for our RPGs but instead we colonized and conquered.

I think that the goal of new games should be to maintain control over the RP space in games and let people come in and see if they like it. And if they don't they don't, but we don't let the money destroy us again. Its going to take some game developers with artistic integrity though.

But ideally everyone will get to play the game they want to play. Except instead of us getting our games stolen the people who liked something but not all of it will be the ones who have to agitate and suffer to find an amazing game instead of repeating the cycle where RPGs get pushed out.

Again something that will require game designers and owners who don't just chase after a buck.

Throughout the history of videogame RPGs the focus was story, characters/development, and twitch-lite (or non-twitch) combat.  Role-play in the tabletop sense is not a central of focus of the genre.

Also, I think you missed the point: FarmVille is EVE is FarmVille.  Time investment and friend count mean everything in these games.  Skill means little and decision-making is undermined because of the comparitive value of time investment and friend count.

When you fought monsters and bosses in the best RPGs over the years they were introduced right when they provided the ideal challenge (or a little stronger), which made tactical decision-making during the fight a must, and directly undermined your entire progression up til that point.

When this wasn't the case, the fight was either considered boringly easy or stupidly hard.  Neither case was desirable or intentional.

If you want to offer an RP game, you create a tabletop RP game rather than banging the square peg in the round hole by trying to emulate tabletop RPing in a videogame.

Until a game comes along where players are capable of creating entire worlds on the fly the same way DMs create a world on the fly out of their imagination during a session, you're not going to see tabletop-style RPing work in videogames.  Even then it's going to be a fundamentally different experience due to how it's realized (visually vs. imagination.)

 

Wow, I bet you weren't very good at EvE.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/15/12 2:41:45 AM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 Who said anything about Farmville or anything even remotely related to its design?

90s gamers wanted fairness too, because gamers have always wanted interesting decisions.  You don't achieve interesting decisions by letting things be unbalanced, such as in C&C:RA where all you did was mass tanks because the other strategies were too weak to work.   You achieved interesting decisions by having things be fair, like RA2 or Starcraft where many viable strategies exist (as a direct result of the games being well-balanced.)

"The reality is" "90s gamers want" .. can you link to the information you're basing this on?

To put it simply:

Fairness = balance = interesting decisions = what gamers want

There's a market for players who just want a FarmVille-style relaxation activity (EVE PVE or EVE mining), but most players are clearly choosing the games where they can't succeed while falling asleep at the keyboard, where the game wants to play with them and not just use them.

Again, where did the Farmville/EVE stuff come from? Was this post meant for another thread?

 

It's a discussion about fairness in games.  

Fair vs. Unfair always revolves around whether skill is a central element (because "fair" refers to a game where the skilled player wins.)

So you either have a fair game, focused on skill (decision-making, strategy, tactics, and/or twitch) or you have an unfair game where skill is diluted.  EVE/FarmVille just happen to be clear examples of games where skill is unimportant due to a focus on time investment and friend count.

As for 90's games, just look at all the direction of RPGs over the years.  The ones that did best were consistently the ones advancing the genre to where we are now, with tactical decisions being important.  Almost no RPG exists which didn't strive to throw exactly the right boss at you to challenge you.

That was probably a big reason behind the explosion of tactics-style games back then, as these RPGs made every battle a series of important decision-making (or at least far more so than typical RPGs of the day.)

We've thankfully evolved out of attrition-based gameplay too.  As much as I loved FF2/3 for their time, the experience of making it halfway through a dungeon only to realize you don't have enough potions/mana/etc to complete it is not enjoyable or necessary -- and it makes each individual fight a lot less interesting since each non-boss is only intended to prick you a little and not be an interesting fight.

Obviously taking these scaling to the extreme (auto-scaling in Oblivion) was proven to be bad.  This allowed the genre to zero in closer to the sweet spot with Dragon Age, Fallout 3, Deus Ex, and Mass Effect using far more popular variants of auto-scaling.

All of these elements conspire to make fights close, fair, and balanced so that good decision-making will result in victory and bad decision-making will result in less satisfactory results (if not an outright loss, then a victory which is either partial or slow or inefficient in some way.)

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 2:54:52 AM#24

Still not following what that has to do with the topic, but that could just be because it's late here. Is it that you agree that the evil (downside, negative, con, etc)  of having every battle a fair fight is that it steals away the feeling of progression or you disagree?

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

3/15/12 3:02:29 AM#25
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Creslin321

One thing that I think is way different (in a bad way) when you compare the MMORPGS and RPGs of today to their counterparts of 90's is this concept that everything should be "fair."  In themepark MMORPGs, you are guided from quest to quest in a way that ensures the mobs you fight will always be around your level, so you always have a "fair" (typically easy) fight.  The same is true of modern SPRPGs, though they sometimes use devices like level-scaling to enforce this fairness as opposed to simply guiding the player.

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game.  For example, in WoW, I'm always fighting MOBs that are yellow or green..that's it.  The quest nodes and zone levels on the map are very careful to guide me along a carefully determined path so that this is the case.  I never really feel like I'm progressing, because my foes are almost always the exact same level as me...they increase in strength precisely proportionately to my advanacement.

So I think this philosophy is misguided.  You see, I believe that RPGs are about progression FAR more than they are about action-packed or highly tactical combat.  And guiding the player so that they are always fighting "equal" opponents kills that sense of progression.

In old school RPGs like early Final Fantasy games, the Ultima Series (including UO), or Everquest, if you wandered off the beaten path slightly, you may wind up meeting mobs that will hand you your behind on a silver platter.  This may seem unfair, but it really puts the danger of the world into perspective.  You KNOW that a sand giant can absolutely destroy you, because you encounter them often...they are as much a part of the world of a level 18 as they are a level 40.

And when you finally get high enough level to kill a sand giant...man that's a good feeling.  You feel like you actually accomplished something...the deadly predator of yesterday is now your prey!

So in conclusion, I really think (MMO)RPGs should get back to showing the player the terrifying monsters of the world at a lower level, and not being afraid to let them stumble on a dragon's lair just to put everything in perspective.  I'm not advocating the use of "grief NPCs" like Everquest had, but I think it would be good to even have a few "non-aggro" NPCs of higher levels wandering around lower level places so that players could have something to strive for.

I agree. There is a single player game - Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, for which there was a player mod that let random monsters of any level  and number appear - Martigan's Monster Mod I believe.  One never knew if one would run into a monster much higher than one's character... or a monster of similiar level but more than 1 at a time.  It was great, one learned the age old concept of he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.

FCOM ftw!

FCOM (which contains Martigan's Monster Mod, among other mods that completely remove the scaling), turned Oblivion from a very good RPG with a fatal flaw (scaling) into an absolutely AMAZING RPG.

The fact that so many modders spent so long to "fix" the scaling in Oblivion, and that the mods were so popular despite their difficulty to install, provides good evidence in favor of many players preferring a less "fair" experience.

 

i'm only excited in a video game when death seems evident.

i did not use fcom, but i did use MMM and loved the fun of running from a pack of trolls as a fresh character. or even an ogre.

not to mention, MMM really enhanced the oblivion gates with packs of deadra and the moddified (largest) Dremora.

  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

3/15/12 3:12:53 AM#26
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Is that so bad?  I think it'd enhance the feel of a game, if there are some mobs that just need to be avoided.  Not everything should be xp fodder.  Maybe it'd be better if the world felt a little more dangerous, even if that means players are doing there best to avoid those dangerous parts, and even complaing about how much it sucks when they fail to do so, and get stomped.

 

I think one of the core mistakes MMO devs make is misunderstanding different types of complaining people do.  A lot of people will complain if a game is difficult, yet will feel compelled to keep trying.  While OTOH, you can have a game that's easy, that no one complains about, but less and less people feel compelled to play at all.  I think sometimes complaining is actually a good sign.  Not just because it shows they care, but some types of frustration can even be part of what gets people to care.

 

 

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 3:38:32 AM#27
Originally posted by Vhaln
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Is that so bad?  I think it'd enhance the feel of a game, if there are some mobs that just need to be avoided.  Not everything should be xp fodder.  Maybe it'd be better if the world felt a little more dangerous, even if that means players are doing there best to avoid those dangerous parts, and even complaing about how much it sucks when they fail to do so, and get stomped.

I think one of the core mistakes MMO devs make is misunderstanding different types of complaining people do.  A lot of people will complain if a game is difficult, yet will feel compelled to keep trying.  While OTOH, you can have a game that's easy, that no one complains about, but less and less people feel compelled to play at all.  I think sometimes complaining is actually a good sign.  Not just because it shows they care, but some types of frustration can even be part of what gets people to care.

 

I don't find it bad at all. I think they not only add challenge but make for far more eventful gameplay. I remember very little of my mindless jaunt through WOW, but of the things that stuck with me outside of a handful of notablew quests were the mobs that took me by surprise

- that one scorpid in Valley of Trials

- a tiger/lion thing on an island off  from Senjin Village.

- some black scorpid a while down the road from Razor Hill

- when I headed to the undead area I met that fine chap Son of Arugal

and so on, clear up to that ZOMGWTF TREX!!!

They keep the game exciting. :)

  User Deleted
3/15/12 3:41:03 AM#28

In some ways you could saay that having mobs level up and progress with you adds to the immersion int he game in ways. Yet it is more in that like a story or adventure as you fallow it your going to relise that this creature i am fighting which seems so easy now, would actually have ment death most likely several levels easier to yoru characetr in your progression thru the game's story. The fact that you can see your progression thru fighting creature that would have killed you in earlier levels (even if it is you seeing you just whipped a level 19 elite or chap, that only 5 levels ago would have smashed you by sheer level differrnce.). Yet so many players keep to the safe routes of fighting green or yellow mobs, when i remember either jumping to the reds with a group or solo, even getting into elite farming (like in the blasted lands prior to BC coming out.). I would say that if you are always being faced with superior oppenents is a bad idea, but actually tossing into the mix several long areas of superior creatures to give that feeling of you annoying somethign or someone enouph they wanted you dead is not a bad idea. Like you go thru say three zones of fairly equal power mobs, only to be smacked by a zone or two of higher power or elite status mobs as you actions pissed off some agent or group that is working in those areas. Also to keep in mind is themeparks most of all now are about telling a story, and in most stories the main character is not always challenged in every part of the story or aventure, but only in vary spesific parts of the story.

 

I would say that if you are always fighting creatures that are equal to you in level to you, and are not not able to fing more challenging creatures, thhen you are not looking vary well. Even in wow i could find fields of elites status mobs to fight, orange/red level mobs, and quests that were worth alot of experince for me, yet i had to skip ahead of several groups of quests to do this sometimes. To me hardships as well as challenges should not be common place in any game as once you sdo that, then you make that fact the norm, but if you sprinkle it in to where they appear at times like they do in the rela world it actually does give you a feeling of achievement. You trully do not need to have several times of getting trampled by any mobs to remind you that you are weaker than it, look at the fel reaver in hellfire peninsula of wow with only getting stamped on once most players never forgot, but even if you never seen him again that fact was in grained into you from it. I do like the idea of a deadly mob/creature that would wander the areas to freak out, and then also give the layers somethign to strive for, but even ust areas with elites or such would work as well.

 

Saying that only if you can expeirnce losing to someone, or are fighting against uneven/unfair odds that you can not tell you are progressing is short sighted. Merely comparing yourself to what you were only afew levels prior after fighting a mob, can show you that you are much stronger or progressred in ways. I mean you fight a level 15 mob at level 15, but then look back at what how you were only afe levels prior based on skills or powers you have now, and you will see a increase in yoru progresion or power. The issue with continuely having fair fights is that it gets boring as you have no change in difffiulty as your power raises to meet the next opponent, yet if you add in level/diffucult mobs into the mix to break that cycle, then you would add in a new dynamic to the progression. Things like creatures that need specific tactics, powers, or such to defeat, while stll largely being the same general mob, as such you will have to actually use more of what you characetr has at their dispoil. Yet the fact of fighting equal level mobs constently making the game boring, is also true of fighting powerful mobs as well constently, sicne it makes it take the place of fighting those lower level mobs which over time you see as the samethign. Imagine really if you were fighting eqqual level mobs for months, and then changed to higher levels for years always fighting these harder creatures without change. You would equate these higher diffiulty mobs as fair as well as equal now as they are the norm of the game, not the rarity of challenge they shoudl be.

  Requiamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 2054

3/15/12 3:50:47 AM#29

Lol, i though you would talk about fair fight in pvp that are an other matter really, but strangely share the same kind of splitting between old school mmo and the modern ones.

But ye you are right in your OP post, this is one of the "rpg" strongest element that was sacrificed on the "they are only game, we are making game for fun..." altar. No adventure, no risk in mmorpg is retarded, for some strange reasons i still don't grasp why developers went this route, but they did. Its really time to turn the page.

Ho in fact i know perfectly why they did it, its clear around 2k, mmo wasn't rpg anymore, but cash cow leaded by the grind psychological abuse on kids to have them pay their monthly fee. Once more so retarded.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  3/15/12 8:50:47 AM#30
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.


This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

That's what this is about.

Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 9:11:56 AM#31
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.


This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

That's what this is about.

Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.


My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  3/15/12 9:20:06 AM#32
Originally posted by Axehilt

If progression mattered far more than tactical combat, the thousands of players raiding in WOW would be playing EVE PVE instead (where most missions basically play themselves as you slowly fall asleep.)

The reality is that the demographic playing MMORPGs predominantly wants a game instead of a FarmVille-like relaxation activity.

 

90s gamers wanted fairness too, because gamers have always wanted interesting decisions.  You don't achieve interesting decisions by letting things be unbalanced, such as in C&C:RA where all you did was mass tanks because the other strategies were too weak to work.   You achieved interesting decisions by having things be fair, like RA2 or Starcraft where many viable strategies exist (as a direct result of the games being well-balanced.)

To put it simply:

Fairness = balance = interesting decisions = what gamers want

There's a market for players who just want a FarmVille-style relaxation activity (EVE PVE or EVE mining), but most players are clearly choosing the games where they can't succeed while falling asleep at the keyboard, where the game wants to play with them and not just use them.

I'm going to challenge this post.

First, Eve is a terrible comparison to WoW if you're trying to prove that players prefer fairness/balance in MMORPGs as opposed to progression.  Eve is a COMPLETELY different game from WoW.  If WoW's roots are from D&D, Eve's roots are from Trade Wars...completely different.  I don't play Eve simply because I don't like the kind of game it is...it has nothing to do with progression vs. fairness or anything like that.  I am 99% certain many other gamers feel the same.

Second, I'm going to challenge your assertion that the "masses" enjoy raiding.  Raiding is an incredibly involved, very-demanding, and high-committment activity.  I'm sure there are many "hardcore" folks that love raiding, but it really doesn't appeal to the more casual gamer that is typically assumed to be in the majority.  Heck, I'm probably considered a hardcore gamer, and I've never been on a single raid in my life because they just seem way too involved.

I don't have any statistics on how many people raid, but there's a lot of anecdotal accounts around that web that state a relatively smaller (like 10-25%) or WoW players actually raid.  Also...consider why players raid.  If the best gear couldn't be obtained by raiding, how many people would still do it?

Players raid because they want to...drumroll please...progress!  They want to get better gear.  Raiding is often the means to an end, and that's it.

There's nothing wrong with having skill and challenge be a component of an RPG, but it should, IMO, always take a backseat to the feeling of progression...except for in PvP where it should be balanced.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  LowFlyingHam

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/11
Posts: 98

3/15/12 9:21:20 AM#33

Agree but disagree at the same time.  I remember playing RF Online for like a half hour.  I got to the first town after doing the tutorial, and either I missed the quests or simply picked the wrong exit from town.  Got rofl-stomped by baddies way higher than me right next to the starting town... I kinda sat there for a few seconds, and immediately uninstalled.  That's just bad game design, I don't care how you justify it.

I do have 'fond' memories of being genuinely scared of some mobs in Dark Souls.  While you're making your way to the Taurus Demon for example(the one you fight on top of a castle wall with a tower you can get up on... this is way early in the game), there's this big knight looking guy next to some narrow passageway going down some steps.  It's completely out of the way, you're not required to go down there at all.  I think he was guarding a chest or something, and he'd kill me every single time.  He may have actually been impossible to kill, I don't remember very well... but that's the kind of feeling that's missing from MMORPGs, that sense of danger. 

WoW had a little bit of this here and there like the Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula.  It patrolled all over the zone, and the ground would shake if it was walking near you.  If you didn't see it outright coming towards you, the ground would shake and you're like "oh crap" and start swinging your camera around looking for him.

For PvP I advocate nothing but a fair fight.  This is why I've always been disinterested with PvP in MMOs... if it's not an issue of gear balance, it's rock-paper-scissors class design.

Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3

Visit my fail Youtube channel(don't leave me nasty messages!): http://www.youtube.com/user/Mirii471

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  3/15/12 9:24:42 AM#34
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.


This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

That's what this is about.

Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.


My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph.

Erm...since I made the OP, doesn't that mean I get to define what the thread is about ;)?

Also...MMORPGs ARE RPGs.  They share an incredible amount of stuff with RPGs...they are just RPGs with a persistent world and lots of people, so yes, comparisons between RPGs and MMORPGs are perfectly valid.

And the EXACT SAME argument that I made in the post you just responded to could be applied to specifically MMORPGs.  In almost every single MMORPG...you can trivialize content by grinding or getting better equip.  The only content that can't be trivialized is the stuff at the very end of the game or PvP.  Everything else can be "outleveled" or "outgeared."  How is this any different from RPGs?

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

3/15/12 9:26:06 AM#35
Originally posted by Creslin321

...

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game.  For example, in WoW, I'm always fighting MOBs that are yellow or green..that's it.  The quest nodes and zone levels on the map are very careful to guide me along a carefully determined path so that this is the case.  I never really feel like I'm progressing, because my foes are almost always the exact same level as me...they increase in strength precisely proportionately to my advanacement.

...

Personally, I do feel like I'm progressing but it doesn't feel like any sort of accomplishment.  Hitting max level has become routine.  It has gotten to the point where leveling is so trivial that players are asking for it's removal.  It's like getting a trophy in pee-wee sports, all you have to do is show up.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 9:33:53 AM#36
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Creslin321

This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

 

I'd say B and C are good bets.

 

Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.


This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

That's what this is about.

Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.


My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph.

Erm...since I made the OP, doesn't that mean I get to define what the thread is about ;)?

Also...MMORPGs ARE RPGs.  They share an incredible amount of stuff with RPGs...they are just RPGs with a persistent world and lots of people, so yes, comparisons between RPGs and MMORPGs are perfectly valid.

And the EXACT SAME argument that I made in the post you just responded to could be applied to specifically MMORPGs.  In almost every single MMORPG...you can trivialize content by grinding or getting better equip.  The only content that can't be trivialized is the stuff at the very end of the game or PvP.  Everything else can be "outleveled" or "outgeared."  How is this any different from RPGs?

I never dispuited any of that. You said that you really think (MMO)RPGs should get back to showing the player the terrifying monsters of the world at a lower level, and not being afraid to let them stumble on a dragon's lair just to put everything in perspective. Your example was conning in WOW. Since you qualified MMOs specifically there that particular aspect is what I was replying to.

If you read the posts, you'll see we are in rather complete agreement about MMOs, RPGs and the gameplay. My post was solely about how the majority of players of the MMO subset of RPGs play the game and why "should get back to" is fine for the rest but not the majority.

  drbaltazar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7937

3/15/12 9:48:23 AM#37

fair?check in usa!there is some racing balancing!how they do it ?simple they had weight to the winner up to a certain limit!

and you know what racer love it!cause talented racer get to show of their skill and less skill racer get to compete with the ultra pro!

should be the same in game !there sshould be a balancing system!

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

3/15/12 10:09:03 AM#38

As long as these "Terrifying monsters" are able to present fear in a skillful manner, rather than the cliché statistical fashion that is over represented in today's games.

 

I still vote that levels and gear need to get the **** out.

Also something very interesting I've noticed about games that allow gear to scale to an absurd level, is that players who were at one point considered "skillful" players, tend to play like $#!^ as the gear gets better and better. It's not just action rpgs that have dodge functions to avoid damage frames, its all games, as the players stats get better the less the effort the player has to put forth.

 

I'm all for progression that is lead by difficulty of content, so long as that difficulty isn't determined by the number of  "+'s" required on your gear.

Imagine a game that didn't have levels, and didn't hold the players hand through the content. Imagine what it would be like trying to determine which mobs you can handle and which mobs would end up being total bad-***es. Actually that kind of reminds of how I ended up having to play Cry of Fear.

  Gardavsshade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 615

3/15/12 10:14:29 AM#39

I agree with the OP 100%.

Oh... btw... I will be the idiot that walks into a Dragons lair as a Youngling just because I am curious and get my backside handed me on a Silver Platter........AS IT SHOULD BE.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/15/12 10:36:06 AM#40
Originally posted by Gardavsshade

I agree with the OP 100%.

Oh... btw... I will be the idiot that walks into a Dragons lair as a Youngling just because I am curious and get my backside handed me on a Silver Platter........AS IT SHOULD BE.

That was my daily experience in my first months of UO and AC. :)

9 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search