Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Vrika

 

2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.

 

Best reason I've seen so far. Gaining a permanent boost (like leveling up) feels good. Gaining resources that temporarily boost you (like an item that will break as it is used) feels much worse, especially when just running the content is guaranteed to deplete your resources regardless of whether you do well or not.

you can still improve your characters power with an item decay system. when you start out the game you have a crappy item and with it you can farm mainly crappy monsters or raids (in themepark games) that give crappy mats. during the time it takes your item to decay you craft a better item. then you farm stronger monsters or raids that give slighty better items and you can make better items etc etc etc

eventually all players should reach a plateu (this plateu should not take long to reach) where it is equally hard to get stronger as it is to get weaker in terms of gear. this plateau will depend on how you play the game (good desicions vs bad desicions, take risks or play it safe etc)

if you make poor desicions, get killed too much etc etc you might end up with a weaker item next time it comes to replacing that item. 

another advantage of this system is that players are rewarded for the desicions making and skill rather than the time spent since items decay faster the more you play.  in bound item systems whoever no-lifes  raid content will have the best gear. in my opininion mmorpgs should try and avoid rewarding players for time spent.

lately the trend has been to reward players based on time spent rather than intelligent thinking because everyone has time but not many people have intelligence.

 

It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent. Being more "skilled" means you get more of a reward for the time you invest, whether that skill is running quests in most optimal order to get them done quickly, or refraining from crafting items that are not profitable, or making decisions in combat that don't get them killed.

The incentive to play better is that skilled players advance at a faster rate, but everyone except the most thick-headed ought to be able to plod forward at some pace, even if it's slow. You shouldn't reach a point where you say "From here on out, when I log in, I'm just treading water to stay in the same place unless I improve." That's appropriate for other games, like platformers (in Mega Man 2, if you're not good enough to beat Air Man's stage, you can't see the rest of the game until you improve). It's not appropriate for an MMORPG.

I'm sorry, level cap wants to say hi.

Originally posted by bishbosh

why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

 

item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

or upon death (major decay)

or maybe both?

 

once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

This comes down to two things in my opinion:

1) The general game design used for the majority of MMO's (raiding is not decay friendly imho).

2) Player conception/reaction

Ultima Online to me is a good example.   I don't remember if there was a limit on number of repairs a smith could do to an item (or later the deeds they could make so non smith's could repair).

However, in early UO... item decay was basicly when you died... other players could loot you and npc's would loot you.   Granted if you could find the monster you might get your stuff back or if you killed the player you might.. but people obviously lost stuff.

Now I know a lot of people who just raged and quit over losing... complete crap.   I mean my entire guild quit when our tower got looted and really it was just chests full of crap.. complete junk.   (now maybe you get why I say raiding MMO's are not a good design currently for decay because those items aren't really junk.. but anyway..)

The thing was in UO I crafted everything I used.   I didn't care if I died and was looted because I had 5 to 6 complete setups in my bank... go to bank grab bag open bag... equip armor/weapon etc good to go... small selection of regs everything I needed.   Total loss of items on death was such a small amount even if you had to buy the gear.  

I sold gimp suits as we later called them .. complete with a weapon of every type and a shield for like 2500 gold.   2500 gold in UO did not take long to make... and my vendor became like a full time job but I had gold stored everywhere. 

You need a game that is basicly designed with player crafting in mind in order to have decay.   Now UO early on had "magic items" like armor of invuln and weapons of vanq... but I never felt at a handicap in PvP when I was using my crafted stuff... I didn't really die that often in UO after about the first month.

The problem with most games after UO that had good crafting... was the way it worked.

Two examples...

Star Wars Galaxies and Dark Age of Camelot.

In SWG because of the multitude of resource quality... having to replace your prized weapon/armor... was almost as bad as a raiding game.   Simply because if you broke something... you might find that the only replacements for sale were junk in comparison.   This is why in my opinion... having resources that spawn at various quality levels is a bad idea.

In DAoC I remember when I got my reaver to 50... and someone was telling me how much a suit of chain mail would cost.. how much it would cost to spell craft it... and to be honest I'd never had that much plat in the game to begin with.   The idea here being... when it cost so much in game money to get an item made... that the national debt of the US seems small in comparison... something is wrong with your design.

The problem overall is... so you design a game with a good crafting system and you can have item decay.   Except the majority of your potential player base is used to forming up their "leet" guild and being able to raid for the best stuff... so what exactly do you raid for?   Because... if you make crafting raid related.. then you are going to fall into one of the traps previously mentioned... like having it be so hard to replace gear that people would rather quit then deal with decay..

Sorry for the wall of text but that's pretty much how i see the market.

Now if you had a developer that could make a game and be happy with a concurrent subscriber number of 200,000 to 300,000... (obviously that's a guess on my part lolz..)  then you might get that game made...

Which I guess leads to another problem... most companies that would make that game... are so underfunded or clueless... I wouldn't want to play the game personally... even tho the general idea is what I am looking for in an MMO.

It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent. Being more "skilled" means you get more of a reward for the time you invest, whether that skill is running quests in most optimal order to get them done quickly, or refraining from crafting items that are not profitable, or making decisions in combat that don't get them killed.

The incentive to play better is that skilled players advance at a faster rate, but everyone except the most thick-headed ought to be able to plod forward at some pace, even if it's slow. You shouldn't reach a point where you say "From here on out, when I log in, I'm just treading water to stay in the same place unless I improve." That's appropriate for other games, like platformers (in Mega Man 2, if you're not good enough to beat Air Man's stage, you can't see the rest of the game until you improve). It's not appropriate for an MMORPG.

 i woudlnt say its not appropriate. if we disregard gameplay mechanics because they dont "fit" mmorpgs will just continue ot be clones.  item decay is a different reward mechanic that could be implemented  and i think it would be much better. it actually allows casual players a chance to compete with jobless basement dwellers <<-- isnt this the latest trend?. i think this mechanic is superior  to bound items as it is

1. casual friendly from a time perspective

2. allows for a player economy and thus greater gameplay depth

it seems the industry is trying to move away from time based rewards but they are doing it wrong by making things too easy and implementing stupid systems like rested EXP.

Originally posted by Disdena

It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent.

The entitlement runs deep in this one.

If that was true, then a DnD campaign wouldn't have been about mapping through unknown paths, disarming traps, outwitting or defeating your enemy, and getting to the goal alive.  What RPG was ever about the time spent?

If DnD had been invented by today's gamers, the dungeon would be two 10x10 rooms. The first one for the party to spin in place and constantly roll for random encounters, and the second room to pop open filled with purple loot after their dizzied characters reached the level cap in the first one.

A small group of elite players will tackle the hardest content, and less-skilled players will farm easier content for those elite players in exchange for elite player's rare drops.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by bishbosh

why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

 

item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

or upon death (major decay)

or maybe both?

 

once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

 

This comes down to two things in my opinion:

 

1) The general game design used for the majority of MMO's (raiding is not decay friendly imho).

 

2) Player conception/reaction

 

Ultima Online to me is a ............. *SNIP*

raiding could be crafting/decay friendly

its just about getting it right

say on average a set of gear lasts 5 raids . therefore a 20 man raid will need to farm 20 sets of gear in 5 raids in order to continue raid progression.

1. if they perform poorly in the raids they will acquire enough mats to gear up their whole raid group and progressing to the next tier raid would be risky/difficult and they might have to redo a current tier/lower teir  raid until they are geared.

2. if they succeed they will most likely have a fair chance of success with the next higher tier raid. they might even have some surplus mats as back or to sell on the market.

this flow is fairly similar to what happens with bound item systems except it allows for a player economy and the ability to acquire raid quality gear through trade. people who dont like raiding can whatever they like doing and receive good rewards. players will not be forced to raid. if you dont like non raiders getting raid gear, well then its up to you to not sell your raid gear on the market.

Originally posted by Judith48

A small group of elite players will tackle the hardest content, and less-skilled players will farm easier content for those elite players in exchange for elite player's rare drops.

what is wrong with this?

1. by "less skilled" you mean someone who doesnt raid? in my opinion raiding is a skillless gear fest. raid  PVE offers little challenge compared to PVP.

1.  i highly doubt that "less skilled" players would be able to farm anything of worth of value to a raider. i also dont think raiders will have much raid gear to spare considering they will have to requip themselves due to decay.

2.  if the non raider does manage to acquire enough capital by say for example playing the market (in my opinion this requires 10x the amount of brain a raider uses) well props to him, he deserves whatever people are willing to sell to him based what he can offer.

Decay is a holistic tool and it has its place in every mmorpg that offers both combat and social/economic gameplay. Its not really about thempark vs sandbox but keeping your game working well in the short, medium and longterm. :)

In a raid based or level based game, imagine you were to go get this really awesome suit of pwnage, and if you never lost it? what reason would you have to go do that raid again or any other? Ok, you can go do it again to help someone else get it, like a guildee for instance, then you have two people who never have to run that raid again and so on and so on. Raids are finite gameplay as well, its not an unlimited pool of gameplay you can tap into all the time. People get sick of it when its easy to do, easy to find and complete and raids do not make up 99% of the gaming experience, if they do, then a designer should consider just wtf he is doing with his game because at that point, raiding is a friggin job, a chore. Dont be misled.

In terms of what it brings to crafting, it provides meaning for the craft. You craft to sell goods, you sell goods to make currency and you cant sell goods if everyone has them already. So people need to think in terms of game replayability too. It has nothing  to do with some silly punishment, it has nothing to do with chores or fun, it has nothing to do with level vs skill, its about controlling the entry and exit of items and providing a sustainable gameplay model.

If youre having problems with fun in your mmo, its not going to be because of decay. Its probably because your gameplay is just boring anyway.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

It's fairly simple.  Items get destroyed and must be replaced.  Crafters make the new items.

It doesn't work well in level based games because most of the items are not crafted.  Also, before you hit max level, you're changing gear every other day nothing has time to decay.  Crafters are mass producing low level gear just to level up their crafting skill and there simply is no market for it.

The system works great in Eve.  Other games simply choose not to follow a good example.

Items do not decay in Eve as you use them. Not unless you are overheating. And repair fees only rarely go to any player. You can't even target a specific system of the ship, like enemy's engines for example, like in some other games. In Eve, players lose their ship and some of the stuff they had in it gets destroyed. There is no item decay.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

That is not true at all. If items do not decay the economy stagnates. Do you know how much of the real world economy is based on things deteriorating?

We both know that real world doesn't make a good game. Everybody needs to eat, sleep in real life. Is that a fun thing to have in a game? How about permanent injury and death?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

It's fairly simple.  Items get destroyed and must be replaced.  Crafters make the new items.

It doesn't work well in level based games because most of the items are not crafted.  Also, before you hit max level, you're changing gear every other day nothing has time to decay.  Crafters are mass producing low level gear just to level up their crafting skill and there simply is no market for it.

The system works great in Eve.  Other games simply choose not to follow a good example.

Items do not decay in Eve as you use them. Not unless you are overheating. And repair fees only rarely go to any player. You can't even target a specific system of the ship, like enemy's engines for example, like in some other games. In Eve, players lose their ship and some of the stuff they had in it gets destroyed. There is no item decay.

That's what he said - "items get destroyed and must be replaced." Since the market is almost entirely comprised of player-made goods, it fuels manufacturing as there is always a market for the goods, including those that low level crafters can make.  Whether decay or destruction, they are both parts of the same goal the OP is describing, which is the removal of crafted goods from the system to support the crafting side of gameplay.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

It's fairly simple.  Items get destroyed and must be replaced.  Crafters make the new items.

It doesn't work well in level based games because most of the items are not crafted.  Also, before you hit max level, you're changing gear every other day nothing has time to decay.  Crafters are mass producing low level gear just to level up their crafting skill and there simply is no market for it.

The system works great in Eve.  Other games simply choose not to follow a good example.

Items do not decay in Eve as you use them. Not unless you are overheating. And repair fees only rarely go to any player. You can't even target a specific system of the ship, like enemy's engines for example, like in some other games. In Eve, players lose their ship and some of the stuff they had in it gets destroyed. There is no item decay.

That's what he said - "items get destroyed and must be replaced." Since the market is almost entirely comprised of player-made goods, it fuels manufacturing as there is always a market for the goods, including those that low level crafters can make.  Whether decay or destruction, they are both parts of the same goal the OP is describing, which is the removal of crafted goods from the system to support the crafting side of gameplay.

 

Well i make a distinction between decay and destruction.

EDIT: Because you can have either without the other.

"Well i make a distinction between decay and destruction.

EDIT: Because you can have either without the other."

Agreed. Either can be used to reach the OP's goal, which is to promote/support crafting.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

That is not true at all. If items do not decay the economy stagnates. Do you know how much of the real world economy is based on things deteriorating?

We both know that real world doesn't make a good game. Everybody needs to eat, sleep in real life. Is that a fun thing to have in a game? How about permanent injury and death?

what you just did is what is called a strawman argument. you exaggerated an argument being made by the opposition and then took apart that exaggerated argument and assumed you had proved something.

no one here is saying make a game like the real world. if incorporating aspects of the real world into a game can improve the game then do it.

example1: item decay + proper economy.

example2: bullet drop in first person shooters

from yoour previous post i dont think you understand how item decay works. essentially an item has a durability. once this durability is exhausted the item is destroyed. repairs do not stop the items destruction but can prolong the items life by a short amount. items do not break due to a random event or people slacking on repairs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Disdena

It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent.

The entitlement runs deep in this one.

 

If that was true, then a DnD campaign wouldn't have been about mapping through unknown paths, disarming traps, outwitting or defeating your enemy, and getting to the goal alive.  What RPG was ever about the time spent?

 

If DnD had been invented by today's gamers, the dungeon would be two 10x10 rooms. The first one for the party to spin in place and constantly roll for random encounters, and the second room to pop open filled with purple loot after their dizzied characters reached the level cap in the first one.

 

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

That is not true at all. If items do not decay the economy stagnates. Do you know how much of the real world economy is based on things deteriorating?

We both know that real world doesn't make a good game. Everybody needs to eat, sleep in real life. Is that a fun thing to have in a game? How about permanent injury and death?

what you just did is what is called a strawman argument. you exaggerated an argument being made by the opposition and then took apart that exaggerated argument and assumed you had proved something.

no one here is saying make a game like the real world. if incorporating aspects of the real world into a game can improve the game then do it.

example1: item decay + proper economy.

example2: bullet drop in first person shooters

 

from yoour previous post i dont think you understand how item decay works. essentially an item has a durability. once this durability is exhausted the item is destroyed. repairs do not stop the items destruction but can prolong the items life by a short amount. items do not break due to a random event or people slacking on repairs.

 

He made a statement that without item decay market becomes stagnant. His only argument in favor of this statement was that much of real life economy relies on things deteriorating and that argument is ridiculous - and I gave examples showing that. More often than not, real life translates badly to videogames.

I do get item decay. You can have decay without destroying the item. Just as you can have destruction without decay. I'm sure you don't need examples of this. Item decay does not promote crafting as much as item destruction does. As its been implemented in the past, item decay  is also a major source of annoyance for many players so I do not recommend using it as a means to promote crafting.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Quirhid

It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

That is not true at all. If items do not decay the economy stagnates. Do you know how much of the real world economy is based on things deteriorating?

We both know that real world doesn't make a good game. Everybody needs to eat, sleep in real life. Is that a fun thing to have in a game? How about permanent injury and death?

what you just did is what is called a strawman argument. you exaggerated an argument being made by the opposition and then took apart that exaggerated argument and assumed you had proved something.

no one here is saying make a game like the real world. if incorporating aspects of the real world into a game can improve the game then do it.

example1: item decay + proper economy.

example2: bullet drop in first person shooters

 

from yoour previous post i dont think you understand how item decay works. essentially an item has a durability. once this durability is exhausted the item is destroyed. repairs do not stop the items destruction but can prolong the items life by a short amount. items do not break due to a random event or people slacking on repairs.

 

He made a statement that without item decay market becomes stagnant. His only argument in favor of this statement was that much of real life economy relies on things deteriorating and that argument is ridiculous - and I gave examples showing that. More often than not, real life translates badly to videogames.

I do get item decay. You can have decay without destroying the item. Just as you can have destruction without decay. I'm sure you don't need examples of this. Item decay does not promote crafting as much as item destruction does. As its been implemented in the past, item decay  is also a major source of annoyance for many players so I do not recommend using it as a means to promote crafting.

by item decay i meant the item decays till it breaks and is destroyed.

People just hate the fact they can loose their items, and they watch only the negative aspects of it, like the fact you'll be without weapon in a middle of a fight which is really easy for a dev to not make it happen. But they are a lot of benefit from item breaking, or more generally item consumption that is a much more general aspect. Uo had a good wear and tears system, with some rare deed that could make something unbreakable, rare enough so that people couldn't afford more than one or 2 unbreakable items. Imo that was a good option. I also love the item quality feature H&H have, i think mmo would get a lot if they implement item quality too.

Originally posted by bishbosh

why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

 

item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

or upon death (major decay)

or maybe both?

 

once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

I'd go one further and say 1 character per server.  On top of decaying items, and a decent crafting system, then you'd have the sound foundation of a good player-run economy.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by bishbosh

why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

 

item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

or upon death (major decay)

or maybe both?

 

once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

I'd go one further and say 1 character per server.  On top of decaying items, and a decent crafting system, then you'd have the sound foundation of a good player-run economy.

why only 1 character per server?