Originally posted by ShakyMo
Errr "you can't have good pvp in a themepark"?

daoc, planetside & guild wars would like a word please

... i'd hazard a guess you havent actually played those games. As Planetside isnt a Themepark but a MMOFPS, and has more in common with a sandbox game than a themepark one. DaoC was a themepark, but succeeded in the PvP largely because of the RvRvR combat, and the 'Realm Pride' that used to be a big part of the game, not that DaoC was balanced. as for GW1, that was a CORPG, not even an MMO, as Arenanet have stated themselves ever since the game was designed/released, GW2 however is nothing like GW1..

Originally posted by observer

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3339800#edit3339800

This is bad news.  World pvp is absolutely dead now.

Yep and so is my sub. I dont care much for PvE and the only reason for keeping my sub alive would be for my level 50 Guardian to be able to engage into some meaningful open world PvP. Because I really like how the Guardian class is designed.

But now they said that they will just deprecate Ilum and will redesign it sometime in the future which means no open world PvP for the foreseable future. 

Ah well... I guess Tera is not that way of. I can probably entertain myself with some single player RPGs while I wait.

Originally posted by MMOarQQ

Can't believe they haven't fired that Amatangelo clown yet.

With him at the wheel the quality of PvP is bound to remain mediocre at best.

I agree. That guy doesnt seem to have a clue on how to make good open world PvP.

Originally posted by Voiidiin

Originally posted by observer

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3339800#edit3339800

This is bad news.  World pvp is absolutely dead now.

Umm, sorry my wife is a English teacher so i have found certain things in forums very annoying.

 

Can someone please tell me how you get "Deprecated" ?? Its not a verb so i am at a loss here. Did they mean "Decapitated" ? Or "Decaffeinated" ?

Deprecate is a therm used in SW development which means that the function is still there but should no longer be used as there is a better alternative to it.

Originally posted by Creslin321

I honestly think BW has been fairly shady about this whole Ilum deprecation thing...

It's obvious the game was pushed out before Ilum was properly developed and tested.  But you know, sh!t happens, so what can you do.

What irks me is that Bioware has been absolutely terrible to its players PR wise about this the whole time and shows no signs of changing.  First, they try to fix Ilum by introducing change after change that just makes it worse.  Then they must have decided internally that Ilum could not be salvaged as is and must be completed reworked.

But instead of candidly apologizing to their players for essentially not delivering a promised feature and committing to do better, they just send out a nearly cryptic message that you can now get all the PvP rewards through WZs.  Savvy players realize this means Ilum will be a ghost town from now on, but BW didn't really own up to it in the first post.  Now we get another forum post saying Ilum is being "deprecated."

I mean, at least they admitted that they F'd up on Ilum (kinda?), but they definitely aren't apologetic about it at all.

Several recent events have caused me to lose a lot of trust in Bioware, and this is just another one for the pile.

Just want to point out that they discussed about this in the guild summit video stream!  Was great to hear the crowd cheer!

Why should they appologize.  they always said PVP was not their main focus.  They tried something and it did not work.  They do not owe you anything least of all an appolgy because they tried something and it failed.  So long as they did not intentionally screw it up they should not appologize.  They just need to do what they did and say it did not work and they are going to look at fixing or scrapping it.

Originally posted by Horusra

Why should they appologize.  they always said PVP was not their main focus.  They tried something and it did not work.  They do not owe you anything least of all an appolgy because they tried something and it failed.  So long as they did not intentionally screw it up they should not appologize.  They just need to do what they did and say it did not work and they are going to look at fixing or scrapping it.

They did? Link please.

Not sure what bussiness you are in but if you have paying customers and you fail to deliver something satisfactory it is good to appologise and compensate. You seem to think that we are on equal standings here, we are not. We pay to them, they dont pay to us. We are the customers.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Horusra

Why should they appologize.  they always said PVP was not their main focus.  They tried something and it did not work.  They do not owe you anything least of all an appolgy because they tried something and it failed.  So long as they did not intentionally screw it up they should not appologize.  They just need to do what they did and say it did not work and they are going to look at fixing or scrapping it.

They did? Link please.

Not sure what bussiness you are in but if you have paying customers and you fail to deliver something satisfactory it is good to appologise and compensate. You seem to think that we are on equal standings here, we are not. We pay to them, they dont pay to us. We are the customers.

Yeah we are the customers not the drama queens. I have been dis satisfied over numerous products in my life but i never demanded any apologies..seriously. How can you be even certain that they really meant it when they wrote an apology letter to you with pink hearts on it and nice perfume sprayed all over it? i believe in actions not words. Words are cheap.

Originally posted by davestr1zl

Originally posted by Creslin321

I honestly think BW has been fairly shady about this whole Ilum deprecation thing...

It's obvious the game was pushed out before Ilum was properly developed and tested.  But you know, sh!t happens, so what can you do.

What irks me is that Bioware has been absolutely terrible to its players PR wise about this the whole time and shows no signs of changing.  First, they try to fix Ilum by introducing change after change that just makes it worse.  Then they must have decided internally that Ilum could not be salvaged as is and must be completed reworked.

But instead of candidly apologizing to their players for essentially not delivering a promised feature and committing to do better, they just send out a nearly cryptic message that you can now get all the PvP rewards through WZs.  Savvy players realize this means Ilum will be a ghost town from now on, but BW didn't really own up to it in the first post.  Now we get another forum post saying Ilum is being "deprecated."

I mean, at least they admitted that they F'd up on Ilum (kinda?), but they definitely aren't apologetic about it at all.

Several recent events have caused me to lose a lot of trust in Bioware, and this is just another one for the pile.

If you watched the stream for the guild summit, they most definitely owned up to their mistakes and apologised, outright saying that ilum was bad and not how they intended, and that people arent enjoying it and they are scrapping it and going back to the drawing board to fix it.

And that's great and props to Bioware for doing so. BUT one has to wonder how a game with this big a budget, with so many people working on it, for so long, could have reached launch stage with such a horribly designed feature. I'm just wonderng if their current PVP design team is up to the job. Personally I hope so, but I have to admit my faith in their ability has been badly shaken.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Errr "you can't have good pvp in a themepark"?

daoc, planetside & guild wars would like a word please

... i'd hazard a guess you havent actually played those games. As Planetside isnt a Themepark but a MMOFPS, and has more in common with a sandbox game than a themepark one. DaoC was a themepark, but succeeded in the PvP largely because of the RvRvR combat, and the 'Realm Pride' that used to be a big part of the game, not that DaoC was balanced. as for GW1, that was a CORPG, not even an MMO, as Arenanet have stated themselves ever since the game was designed/released, GW2 however is nothing like GW1..

I would hazzard a guess you don't know what you are talking about. He actually, proved his point but in a wrong way. All he needed to show was that PvP can work in a themepark game and he did. DAoC was a themepark game but nevertheless, it supposedly had one of the best PvP System, BTW genius, RvR is still PvP. PvP just means Player vs Player and DaoC supposdly had those in spades. Guild wars 1 while a CORPG, was not a sandbox game and it still had great PvP, point 2 for the guy.

I have come to the conclusion that most of the Pro sandbox players are the "hippies" of MMO players. They don't necessary  understand what makes sandbox great and just hate themepark games because all the cool kids do.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by davestr1zl

Originally posted by Creslin321

I honestly think BW has been fairly shady about this whole Ilum deprecation thing...

It's obvious the game was pushed out before Ilum was properly developed and tested.  But you know, sh!t happens, so what can you do.

What irks me is that Bioware has been absolutely terrible to its players PR wise about this the whole time and shows no signs of changing.  First, they try to fix Ilum by introducing change after change that just makes it worse.  Then they must have decided internally that Ilum could not be salvaged as is and must be completed reworked.

But instead of candidly apologizing to their players for essentially not delivering a promised feature and committing to do better, they just send out a nearly cryptic message that you can now get all the PvP rewards through WZs.  Savvy players realize this means Ilum will be a ghost town from now on, but BW didn't really own up to it in the first post.  Now we get another forum post saying Ilum is being "deprecated."

I mean, at least they admitted that they F'd up on Ilum (kinda?), but they definitely aren't apologetic about it at all.

Several recent events have caused me to lose a lot of trust in Bioware, and this is just another one for the pile.

If you watched the stream for the guild summit, they most definitely owned up to their mistakes and apologised, outright saying that ilum was bad and not how they intended, and that people arent enjoying it and they are scrapping it and going back to the drawing board to fix it.

And that's great and props to Bioware for doing so. BUT one has to wonder how a game with this big a budget, with so many people working on it, for so long, could have reached launch stage with such a horribly designed feature. I'm just wonderng if their current PVP design team is up to the job. Personally I hope so, but I have to admit my faith in their ability has been badly shaken.

Yeah I missed the guild summit, so I wasn't aware they apologized.

But I agree with you Tardcore.  I think Ilum is fairly inexcusable.  It's a fairly major component of the end-game that is so broken as to be unsalvagable.  For all of the money and talent thrown at this game, it's kind of shocking that a major component of it is just completely broken.

Also, I'm not saying this to be a "drama queen."  It's just that, as a customer, when a vendor burns you over and over again, you eventually stop going.  If a vendor royally f's up my product, then I want them to be candid and even offer me something in return to show they are dedicated to the customer. 

For example, a contractor I hired was really late for an appointment once and he candidly apologized and then knocked $50 off his price because of it.  It changed me from being an angry consumer, to a very satisfied one. 

Another example is when Stardock released a game that was absolutely terrible (Elemental).  This game caused me to lose a lot of faith in Stardock initially.  But they eventually owned up to their failure, and made up for it by making a completely new Elemental game that would be offered free of charge to anyone who bought the first Elemental game.

I really think BW should have offered some free game time for this Ilum debacle.  It's a feature they promised and didn't deliver.

That's funny, people call Ilum world pvp, it's a designated zone for pvp, it's pvp even on pve servers. World pvp is when you encounter the other faction anywhere in the game, such as Alderaan or Tattooine, we had a large scale fight last night on Alderaan. These kind of world pvp events would happen far more often if we could gain valor outside of Ilum.

With the 1.1.5, Ilum is dead most of the day now because people are doing warzones for the daily/weekly- I rather do that than sit there getting 2 fps and pressing class buff every 6 seconds just to rack up valor/kills.

I don't know what people allways moan about PvP in a PvE-themepark.

SWTOR is not for PvP... never will be. So if you wanna play a PvP-MMO then go play one maybe? You know, MMOs like EvE/DF/MO....

Oh... I see... you don't really wanna play a PvP-MMO but some stoopid warezone-crap where you don't actually have to win or loose anything.

Seriously... all those of you who complain about PvP in SWTOR or any other PvE-themepark are laughable.

HTFU!

Originally posted by Tardcore

And that's great and props to Bioware for doing so. BUT one has to wonder how a game with this big a budget, with so many people working on it, for so long, could have reached launch stage with such a horribly designed feature. I'm just wonderng if their current PVP design team is up to the job. Personally I hope so, but I have to admit my faith in their ability has been badly shaken.

Exactly.

And what has changed, so that the same type of mindset doesn't just keep churning out another bad design for Ilium.  Whats to prevent Ilium 2.0, to be just as bad as the released version?

Obviously, they lacked the objectivity on some level, to identify the obvious, and make corrections.  

For all we know, the problem could be as simple as a Closed minded Executive or two, that are conviced they know what is best for everyone.  :-/

Imo, the people making the final approvals, are the ones to blame.   Their position should be a reflection of their ability to catch such fatal flaws, and correct the course, rather than allow such a mistake to continue under their watch.

Originally posted by davestr1zl

Originally posted by Voiidiin

Originally posted by observer

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3339800#edit3339800

This is bad news.  World pvp is absolutely dead now.

Umm, sorry my wife is a English teacher so i have found certain things in forums very annoying.

 

Can someone please tell me how you get "Deprecated" ?? Its not a verb so i am at a loss here. Did they mean "Decapitated" ? Or "Decaffeinated" ?

Deprecation In the process of authoring computer software, its standards or documentation, or other technical standards, deprecation is a status applied to features, characteristics, or practices to indicate that they should be avoided, typically because they have been superseded.

Although deprecated software features remain in the software, their use may raise warning messages recommending alternative practices, and deprecation may indicate that the feature will be removed in the future. Features are deprecated—rather than immediately removed—in order to provide backward compatibility, and give programmers who have used the feature time to bring their code into compliance with the new standard.

 

 

So in this case, Ilum still exists in the game it hasnt been removed/altered (yet). However, incentives and rewards typically gained from ilum have now been handed over to warzones temporarily.

I totally Deprecated my wife with this information !!!!!!

Oopsie.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also, I'm not saying this to be a "drama queen."  It's just that, as a customer, when a vendor burns you over and over again, you eventually stop going.  If a vendor royally f's up my product, then I want them to be candid and even offer me something in return to show they are dedicated to the customer.

You are being a normal consumer, rather than a drama queen.  People complain immediately if their food is too cold, their drink is mixed poorly or that staff was too unattentive.  

The resturants I return to, are the ones where they own up to their mistakes, and offer to compensate.     I do not return to the resturants that avoid owning the mistake, and fail to offer any compensation.

I hate to generalize, but I think there is something about gamers, that makes them act differently than normal customers.   We as a group, seem to be more toleratant of poor quality and mistakes -- where most normal customers would cancel, never return and/or demand refunds.   Perhaps there is something to the social stereotypes of gamers. 

---

Originally posted by Loekii
I hate to generalize, but I think there is something about gamers, that makes them act differently than normal customers.   We as a group, seem to be more toleratant of poor quality and mistakes -- where most normal customers would cancel, never return and/or demand refunds.   Perhaps there is something to the social stereotypes of gamers. 

---

Really? Coulda fooled me. The majority of threads started on this site are complaints about games. You ask most people what mmo they are playing and they will tell you "Nothing, I'm waiting for XX to come out."

I would actually argue that mmo gamers are not tolerant but rather so intolerant, that they don't even want other types of mmo gamers in their game of choice.

edit:
Please please PLEASE spare me the food analogies. They are so wrong its just embarrassing.