TSW is really kind of disappointing.  They could have made an absolutely awesome game in the setting they picked.  Instead, they are going to have gear treadmill and instanced pvp.  What a waste, the skills, gameplay and graphics looked sweet.

This is nearly identical to a discussion on the official forums.

Basically, arguing whether to call it levels or ranks or whatever is just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it's not a conventional level system, calling it level-less IS still half-true in that it's not just a 1 dimensional level grind, and the vertical progression in this game is much flatter and much less dependent on levels and straight up grinding.

Horizontal progression has always been the name of the game and still is, from all accounts at the moment. They are not doing a bait and switch here, people are just nitpicking mostly.

Also, as far as I can tell, yes, there is gear and it matters. Beyond that, it would seem the magnitude to which gear matters is signifigantly less then that of the likes of WoW or SWTOR.

The biggest difference between for instance WoW and TSW is probably the horizontal progression.

• In WoW you get to max level, get the best raid gear and then you wait for content.
• In TSW you can get one build perfect skill-wise, get the best gear for that build and then you can go ahead to get other builds working for your character and get gear for them.

This should make the first part where you level up and get gear for one build relatively quick and much less of a grind and then you can widen the scope of your character so you can take on any role you want for your character. This is just an example of how you can play it. You might take another route were you build up several builds at the same time which will be slower power-wise, but give you a more varied character.

TSW is still a RPG, which in recent years has ment that you aquire skills and gear, but approaches this from a fresh angle that to me looks very interesting.

Originally posted by lambchopzin

This is nearly identical to a discussion on the official forums.

Basically, arguing whether to call it levels or ranks or whatever is just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it's not a conventional level system, calling it level-less IS still half-true in that it's not just a 1 dimensional level grind, and the vertical progression in this game is much flatter and much less dependent on levels and straight up grinding.

Horizontal progression has always been the name of the game and still is, from all accounts at the moment. They are not doing a bait and switch here, people are just nitpicking mostly.

Also, as far as I can tell, yes, there is gear and it matters. Beyond that, it would seem the magnitude to which gear matters is signifigantly less then that of the likes of WoW or SWTOR.

I'd hardly call it fans/haters/people nitpicking, but rather Funcom being vaguely spinning something one way when it boils down to what we've always had.

That's a mistake. Talk about the game for its actual features, renaming xp isn't a feature.

Originally posted by Deathofsage

Originally posted by lambchopzin

This is nearly identical to a discussion on the official forums.

Basically, arguing whether to call it levels or ranks or whatever is just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it's not a conventional level system, calling it level-less IS still half-true in that it's not just a 1 dimensional level grind, and the vertical progression in this game is much flatter and much less dependent on levels and straight up grinding.

Horizontal progression has always been the name of the game and still is, from all accounts at the moment. They are not doing a bait and switch here, people are just nitpicking mostly.

Also, as far as I can tell, yes, there is gear and it matters. Beyond that, it would seem the magnitude to which gear matters is signifigantly less then that of the likes of WoW or SWTOR.

I'd hardly call it fans/haters/people nitpicking, but rather Funcom being vaguely spinning something one way when it boils down to what we've always had.

That's a mistake. Talk about the game for its actual features, renaming xp isn't a feature.

 

xp != levels

Originally posted by Deathofsage

Originally posted by lambchopzin

This is nearly identical to a discussion on the official forums.

Basically, arguing whether to call it levels or ranks or whatever is just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, it's not a conventional level system, calling it level-less IS still half-true in that it's not just a 1 dimensional level grind, and the vertical progression in this game is much flatter and much less dependent on levels and straight up grinding.

Horizontal progression has always been the name of the game and still is, from all accounts at the moment. They are not doing a bait and switch here, people are just nitpicking mostly.

Also, as far as I can tell, yes, there is gear and it matters. Beyond that, it would seem the magnitude to which gear matters is signifigantly less then that of the likes of WoW or SWTOR.

I'd hardly call it fans/haters/people nitpicking, but rather Funcom being vaguely spinning something one way when it boils down to what we've always had.

That's a mistake. Talk about the game for its actual features, renaming xp isn't a feature.

 

 Not having to roll class alts is a huge step in the right direction imo.  One of my least favorite aspects of themeparks is having to roll an alt if i want a diffrent playstyle.  It causes burn out, then im stuck either trudging through the same content again or staying on a class im bored with.

It wont be a hard level system, but i agree, its going to be a type of level system. These games need progression and the progression is going to come from skills. 

I think we will actually have to play the game to get a feel for its progression since there isnt a lot of frame of reference.  I think this is largly going to be a quest/battleground/pve instance themepark just with no alts and a diffrent type of story and lore progression. Its diffrent enough already with just that to make it interesting.

I just hope it plays out well, last thing we need are more games that break the wow-park mold failing to solidify developers choice to not bring anything new to the market. Unless of course GW2 turns out to really be something diffrent, i tend not to believe games the profess this like GW2 has, i think ill wait and see what that game turns out to be. They still have classes and alt rolling however....

In all truth tsw is level-less in that you do not gain statistical bonuses from leveling up like in other games or mmos. YOu merely gain points that allow you to gain acess tto both gear as well as powers thaat enhance your character, and whcih also act as a form of vcheck system to if you can do content. The higher you level your points in a weapons the higherquality or grade of the weapin you can use, and so the better stats it will have to enhance your own stats by, and so what powers as well as gear quality you can wear determines alot for you in the content. Trully it places so much fo your proformence on what gear as well as powers you pick to specc into, and what stats you gain from it for use in the play set-up you are using that it is only simular to a level system in one regard. That regard is the need to gain a grade or level via spending points into the weapon catagory of a type to use the different grades of those ttems, which is like having to get to a certain level to wear somethign.

Originally posted by Asuran24

In all truth tsw is level-less in that you do not gain statistical bonuses from leveling up like in other games or mmos. YOu merely gain points that allow you to gain acess tto both gear as well as powers thaat enhance your character, and whcih also act as a form of vcheck system to if you can do content. The higher you level your points in a weapons the higherquality or grade of the weapin you can use, and so the better stats it will have to enhance your own stats by, and so what powers as well as gear quality you can wear determines alot for you in the content. Trully it places so much fo your proformence on what gear as well as powers you pick to specc into, and what stats you gain from it for use in the play set-up you are using that it is only simular to a level system in one regard. That regard is the need to gain a grade or level via spending points into the weapon catagory of a type to use the different grades of those ttems, which is like having to get to a certain level to wear somethign.

Agreed.

Some MMOS actually use both systems, like EQ 1 & 2s use of AA that are separate from levels. A character can be max level there with really few AA or max out the AAs but still be pretty low in level (even though that forces you to lock your XP).

You're always going to have a leveling system even in games that say there's no such thing. If a game is open-ended and has only skills, then the amount of points you've gained and the skills you've acquired become indicative of your level (for instance, Ultima, which I only played at the beginning, the amount I raised my skill in spellcasting was my level for all intents and purposes). A lot of this isn't developers, these are just the terms players have used for so long to create a familiarity within a more unique system, otherwise people would be scrambling for the correct terminology during discussion.

As for this:

"Skill Points enhance your efficiency with certain weapons or chakras.  There is a limit to how far you can advance each weapon/chakra (I think I heard a seemingly random number like 55), but essentially aren't these just like leveling up in other MMOs?  There will be an obvious difference between a player with 5 points in Assault Rifles and a player with 55.  Isn't this just another form of vertical progression?  Again, you hit a point where you maxed out a particular role and are now able to play that role with the most efficiency compared to someone who just started putting points into that role"

What exactly are you looking for? Common sense would dictate that the more you do something, the better you get at it, especially in comparison to someone who hasn't done it much if at all. That's not to bash you, but because of how obvious it is (not to mention it's what's expected of an RPG) it makes sense that it exists. Even if you couldn't put more points into specific skills to get stronger in them, you'd still have people with more abilities than others because they've been playing longer. 

The only way to avoid all of the above would be to remove any sign of a skill system, and allow everyone to use all abilities the moment they create their character. That's not necessarily a bad design decision, but it make the game an entirely different genre that probably would not appeal to their target demographic.

Originally posted by Crunchy221

Originally posted by Deathofsage

Originally posted by lambchopzin

 

I'd hardly call it fans/haters/people nitpicking, but rather Funcom being vaguely spinning something one way when it boils down to what we've always had.

That's a mistake. Talk about the game for its actual features, renaming xp isn't a feature.

 

 Not having to roll class alts is a huge step in the right direction imo.  One of my least favorite aspects of themeparks is having to roll an alt if i want a diffrent playstyle.  It causes burn out, then im stuck either trudging through the same content again or staying on a class im bored with.

Oh God, this. I completely agree. I definitely believe in singular character systems like FFXI and XIV. It was even my favorite aspect about RIFT (rift wasn't single-character, but so many specs, and being able to mix/match them [in theory] was nice).

It wont be a hard level system, but i agree, its going to be a type of level system. These games need progression and the progression is going to come from skills. 

I think we will actually have to play the game to get a feel for its progression since there isnt a lot of frame of reference.

And this. That's been my chief problem with TSW. All this should change tomorrow/this week (as pressbans are being lifted, I think) but the information about TSW is too fragmented. I see on youtube these things that are titled as gameplay videos and all it seems to be is sooo much talking. Just endless talking. Talking, talking, talking.

My other problem with TSW is this whole idea of simultaenous subscription+cash shop. I don't play f2p cash shop games, because I haven't liked the experience, but I let them be because they don't invade my space. I don't like the idea of devs having the mindset that ANY items are okay to sell beyond a subscription. It's going to completely suck if my character is decked out in great gear/chakras/whatever and looks like he's running around in rags because I won't shell out more money for "purely cosmetic" things.

I think this is largly going to be a quest/battleground/pve instance themepark just with no alts and a diffrent type of story and lore progression. Its diffrent enough already with just that to make it interesting.

I just hope it plays out well, last thing we need are more games that break the wow-park mold failing to solidify developers choice to not bring anything new to the market. Unless of course GW2 turns out to really be something diffrent, i tend not to believe games the profess this like GW2 has, i think ill wait and see what that game turns out to be. They still have classes and alt rolling however....

It's still a leveling system, I don't care where you burry the stat increases. Weapon, character stat sheet, lucky rabbit's foot, I don't care, If I need the stat bonus and I need XP to access that stat bonus, it' a leveling system. And to one extent or another, a gear dependant one to boot.

What concerns me the most is that there is also going to be a cash shop in a gear dependent game.

I feel like people are mistaking the Secret World -system as something that you just walk in and fight the hardest encounters straight of the bat with just playing good. It's not that, not by a long shot. There's a really steep progression in the game both character (skills/gear) aswell as player (learning the game). Sure there isn't "Levels" per se, but there surely are different difficulty mobs (SKULLS) and easier/harder areas and encounters.

You will still be grinding "levels" in this game, you just won't be "DINGING" that much. The progression is over-time more than hitting "levels". I.E completing a deck of skills or maxing your shotgun abilities could be called "DINGING" :j

I just did a little searching in TSW's forums. Near as I can tell, the way they were describing it, The gear progression is more about using the gear to open up new skill/abilities more than what many are familiar as "gear with stats"

So, if I read that right, then gear would work more as an outlet for your existing skills and that you need to unlock skills to utilize the gear.

That almost sounds like a little inspiration came from EVE. 

If that's the way it really works, then that isn't bad.

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

 

It's still a leveling system, I don't care where you burry the stat increases. Weapon, character stat sheet, lucky rabbit's foot, I don't care, If I need the stat bonus and I need XP to access that stat bonus, it' a leveling system. And to one extent or another, a gear dependant one to boot.

What concerns me the most is that there is also going to be a cash shop in a gear dependent game.

 

Thank you!

You are absolutely correct.

anytime you are progresing your character, bit it a skill, some point in some skill or attribute or working for better gear, you are increasing in power in some way.

If players don't want any progression in any way then "yes" we will have a system with no levels.

Personally, I enjoy progression.

Your deck compliments your gear and your gear comes from deconstructing and creating items from mobs that compliment your deck. Its a flow of content>decks>gear all flowing into each other to develop a playstyle you are working on. The result is character progression. Its actually a pretty smart approach. The whole system has combat, crafting, progression, and customization interlinked and reliant on each other. Looking forward to trying it out.

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

 

It's still a leveling system, I don't care where you burry the stat increases. Weapon, character stat sheet, lucky rabbit's foot, I don't care, If I need the stat bonus and I need XP to access that stat bonus, it' a leveling system. And to one extent or another, a gear dependant one to boot.

What concerns me the most is that there is also going to be a cash shop in a gear dependent game.

 

 I don't know about it being completely dependent on gear, as no matter what kind of hear you have, or what quality you have of gear the powers (active as well as passive) are just as important. although i would say more important then gear is yoru power choices or set-up. What powers you use determine so much more about you and how well you do, while gear will most likely just increase the output of yor powers. Where the cash shop comes weither it being gear based or not, is that this game is both box as well as a sub fee, and so selling anythign more then vanity without alot of true uproar.

To me it is a levelless system if there are no hard levels, those levels that gives you stat boost. In example, I could have a standard mmo leveling system, where level 1 player has 100 hitpoints, and level 50 character has 16,789 hitpoints + appropriate godmode stats in comparison. Strip away the hard levels/stats and it's levelless system with skill progression. If TSW works like that, it's a real serious contender in my books. It's hard to have a skill progression without anykind of experience system in place, unless everyone start as masters of everything, which would mean complete removal of progression system of anykind which would make the game very unappealing to a lot of people. Levelless system is the best, easiest, and easiest to understand description of a system, that is simply without the hard levels, imo (I dont know if TSW is such, I hope it is).

Originally posted by Kuinn

To me it is a levelless system if there are no hard levels, those levels that gives you stat boost. In example, I could have a standard mmo leveling system, where level 1 player has 100 hitpoints, and level 50 character has 16,789 hitpoints + appropriate godmode stats in comparison. Strip away the hard levels/stats and it's levelless system with skill progression. If TSW works like that, it's a real serious contender in my books. It's hard to have a skill progression without anykind of experience system in place, unless everyone start as masters of everything, which would mean complete removal of progression system of anykind which would make the game very unappealing to a lot of people. Levelless system is the best, easiest, and easiest to understand description of a system, that is simply without the hard levels, imo (I dont know if TSW is such, I hope it is).

 It is more of a augemented Leveling system actually in my view, in that you need to gain experince to gain points, which are used to level up your ability to use weapons/armor that gives you acess to stat boosts as well as use of yoru powers (The two weapons you can equip determine what schools of magic or such you can use.), and also points to learn powers in the different cells or schools in the skill wheel. In this way the meaning of a level can be seen in two ways one is vertical where your leveling in what gear you can use increases your access to stat gear, and horizontal leveling in which you gain an increasing number of skills/powers that you can substtitue in your current build (of 7 active aswell as 7 passive powers.). Though for knowledge this does not mean you will have a supposed numerical level that means much, as a playing with access to all of the gear in the game, yet has not gained access to as many of the powers in the game will not always be the more powerful character. So they have done away with the fact that seeing a level 55 in game with you being only 40 does not mean you are going to lose, since there is no staple/standardized progression like in other level-based mmos. Even the number of skill or power points will not tell you much more then how many cells or schools of the wheel the player has access to, and also a genrral idea of the possible power of the player, but even this is highly genralized as you only gain access to the outer cells of the wheel at certain point totals.

Originally posted by DannyGlover

Your deck compliments your gear and your gear comes from deconstructing and creating items from mobs that compliment your deck. Its a flow of content>decks>gear all flowing into each other to develop a playstyle you are working on. The result is character progression. Its actually a pretty smart approach. The whole system has combat, crafting, progression, and customization interlinked and reliant on each other. Looking forward to trying it out.

This actually sounds like a really interesting system.

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Kuinn

To me it is a levelless system if there are no hard levels, those levels that gives you stat boost. In example, I could have a standard mmo leveling system, where level 1 player has 100 hitpoints, and level 50 character has 16,789 hitpoints + appropriate godmode stats in comparison. Strip away the hard levels/stats and it's levelless system with skill progression. If TSW works like that, it's a real serious contender in my books. It's hard to have a skill progression without anykind of experience system in place, unless everyone start as masters of everything, which would mean complete removal of progression system of anykind which would make the game very unappealing to a lot of people. Levelless system is the best, easiest, and easiest to understand description of a system, that is simply without the hard levels, imo (I dont know if TSW is such, I hope it is).

 It is more of a augemented Leveling system actually in my view, in that you need to gain experince to gain points, which are used to level up your ability to use weapons/armor that gives you acess to stat boosts as well as use of yoru powers (The two weapons you can equip determine what schools of magic or such you can use.), and also points to learn powers in the different cells or schools in the skill wheel. In this way the meaning of a level can be seen in two ways one is vertical where your leveling in what gear you can use increases your access to stat gear, and horizontal leveling in which you gain an increasing number of skills/powers that you can substtitue in your current build (of 7 active aswell as 7 passive powers.). Though for knowledge this does not mean you will have a supposed numerical level that means much, as a playing with access to all of the gear in the game, yet has not gained access to as many of the powers in the game will not always be the more powerful character. So they have done away with the fact that seeing a level 55 in game with you being only 40 does not mean you are going to lose, since there is no staple/standardized progression like in other level-based mmos. Even the number of skill or power points will not tell you much more then how many cells or schools of the wheel the player has access to, and also a genrral idea of the possible power of the player, but even this is highly genralized as you only gain access to the outer cells of the wheel at certain point totals.

This sounds like a great "leveling" system to me, I'm getting more and more annoyed by the "traditional" leveling system where the little number next to your avatar determines completely where you can go, who you can fight, will you win in a pvp encounter and if past content is utterly useless to you. The traditional system is one of the most restricting leveling systems I can think of, which is great for singleplayer games but absolutely horrible for MMORPGs where you are supposed to be immersed in a huge open world, yet completely handicapped in any other situation except in the right linear step of the way where you are supposed to be according to the game.

It's fine if I cant go somewhere because my armour should be bit more thicker, or I should posses some vital abilities, or maybe just superior skill, but I hate it when I am completely restricted because a monster has 4 more numbers next to his portrait which means I cant land a one single hit on it unless my number gets bigger. If TSW behaves differently compared to this example, in practise, I am willing to forgive a sack full of bugs and missing content at launch :)