Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by Angier2758

Funny that a lot of the best teams use meh heroes.  I don't know if that's an actual strategy to avoid the other team banning the hero you use, but I've seen a lot of  "bad" heroes being used according to forums and what people say in game. 

 

In Dota 2 / HoN, this is the case because of what I explained: the overall utility of hero spells because they are made more powerful.

 

In LoL, sure Soraka is a sustain beast, but if your carry is smart and can avoid damage, wouldn't placing him with a Sona or even Janna be better?  Janna's bubble is like giving your carry a free BF sword and she gives your team some crazy CC.  Sona has a lot of utility and with some cooldown reduction, can provide almost all of it at the same time.  Plus, she has CC.

 

What about Kayle and Yi?  Kayle had a pretty distinct role until things really got toned down for her.  Her ult is very powerful (and if she's chosen, it's usually because of the shock factor of her ult), but her 'support' is lackluster and she is better played as an on-hit top carry - and other characters do that much better than her.

 

Yi is notoriously known for being squishy.  His jungle is purely based on chance - you could get lucky and alpha can steal an entire wraith camp from the enemy jungler, or you could hit it and get nothing.  Meanwhile, Udyr and Skarner are much more reliable AOE and will minimize the player's chance of failure.  Yi can pubstomp noobs (any hero can in LoL), but against competent players, he is shut down 100% of the time.  Consider Tryndamere's skillset instead, and you have a real melee carry that can ruin good teams as well.

 

Poppy is considered the bread-and-butter anti-carry but her laning goes one of two ways - mana-hungry use of Q or having to go back every other wave because too much damage intake.  Why bother with Poppy when an AP mid can do the same amount of damage as her - at 500 range - while having even more utility?  Poppy's ult is another example of one that could change games, but because of how her character is balanced, she can't make up for her poor placement among other anti-carries / AP.

At the competition level I've seen yi, poppy etc...

Low elo is just like you said though.... I'm thinking it's more the player and the overall strategy... people say talon has no place, but if you think about it you can work a team together where he has a place.

Honestly I think it's a counter ban or shock type strategy that leads to this. 

Originally posted by drbaltazar

i saw this gem of a game yesterday at sunday sub request,in towelliee channel at twitch!and men this game looks fun!

i do hope some here make a review of it!it sound like it is in beta tho

super monday night combat!yes yes the sequel to monday night combat!

i had never heard of that name till i saw it on towelliee dam it was hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5a9O1YyfrU 

here is an exemple!

SMNC is absolutely awesome and gets more game time for me than anything else at this point. I've been in beta since November 1, 2011 or so. There's been a ton of changes and much of what has been done to the game is in direct response to player feedback either on Mumble or on the forums.

I've also been writing articles on SMNC for both FPSguru and RTSguru.com and maintaining a blog here. You can see the thread I have running here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4810982#4810982

It links to most of my articles and stuff. I HAVE BETA KEYS IF YOU NEED THEM. ADD ME ON STEAM FIRST AND SEND ME A MSG. I will then gift you the game.

You can also follow me on Twitter, send me a PM here, check out the rifgamers.com community, or follow up on the Uber Entertainment forums.  Hope to see you around for some games!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by drbaltazar

ok first post are you kidding it is in closed beta!of caurse it lack player!as for the subject ,a new game called:

SUPER MONDAY NIGHT COMBAT!

 

Monday Night Combat has been around for a while, so we already have 80% of an idea how fun SMNC will be compared to a good MOBA.  It's unlikely they've shaken things up too much, given how similar the game looks to the earlier version.

SMNC barely plays like MNC, actually. It's much closer to a real MOBA than MNC was and it's better in every way for it. SMNC is really tons of fun!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by drbaltazar

ok first post are you kidding it is in closed beta!of caurse it lack player!as for the subject ,a new game called:

SUPER MONDAY NIGHT COMBAT!

 

Monday Night Combat has been around for a while, so we already have 80% of an idea how fun SMNC will be compared to a good MOBA.  It's unlikely they've shaken things up too much, given how similar the game looks to the earlier version.

 SMNC literally plays NOTHING like the original.  Go try and play SMNC like one plays the original if you haven't.  You'll get stomped.  There's not a single 1 hit kill move left in the game sans ringing someone out.  HP values sky rocket, team work is a must, no class has the exact same skills anymore, there's a jungle, turrets function entirely different, etc etc etc. 

The biggest complaints about this game are from former MNC players that are saying it's nothing like the original, "We want MNC2, etc."

There's a reason the advertisement for SMNC is - "The Rules Have Changed."  In MNC you could be a one man killing show and win the game.  The same is actually true in the DotA genre if you carry hard you can carry a whole team.  Not so easy in SMNC. 

All of this is great news for you Axehilt, because they listened to what you had to say.  Basically, hey Uber you're telling us this is a DotA game, but really it's just a shooter.  They've responded by hopefully giving you the DotA game you wanted with the shooter elements tacked on this time instead of the other way around.

*Beaten to punch by MikeB!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Of course it's easy for a DOTA player to get back into an exact carbon-copy.  But there's absolutely nothing exciting about the game's design because there isn't any new design.

Understanding the limitations with War3's engine actually makes the argument against carbon-copying that much stronger: those elements of DOTA were forced to be that way; they weren't intentional.  Copying a game so closely that you copy its mistakes is just ridiculous.

Dominion was just more design iteration on the genre.  Are you seriously arguing that we should only see carbon copies and never experiment with something new which might make for an interesting new game type?  We'd never have had DOTA in the first place if nobody wanted to try out new game types using RTS gameplay as a base.

LOL has a lot of different champions and is a competitive game.  Can you name a game like that which has flawless balance?  No?  Well then pointing out the imbalances is a little silly doesn't it?  There are tons of viable champs in spite of the balance issues, and the largest perceived imbalances are mitigated by bans anyway.

Also by homogenizing champions slightly with summoner abilities they make things more balanced, not less.  The more the same champions are, the less differences exist to make one better than another.

A game doesn't need 'new design' to be exciting to players who already love DotA but want to get out of the WC3 limitations.  There's a reason DotA / HoN / Dota 2 players have played thousands of games - it's because they like the game as it is.  They're not looking for Dominion.  It's not important to them.  DotA / HoN / Dota 2 are complex enough that it can keep them held for a very long time.  LoL, on the other hand..  well, that is a toally different argument.

It doesn't strengthen anything.  Both Dota 2 and HoN have developed features that DotA couldn't.  Denying is now considered a tactic in both games, and makes laning more complex - removing it just made LoL less complex in lane.  Is dumbing down the game considered 'development of the genre'? 

Reconnecting is now possible.  Observer tools are now enhanced than what they were in WC3 - in LoL, where's the observer mode that's informative?  Where's the replays?  You mean I have to download a third party program to watch replays in LoL?  For fuck's sake, WC3 itself had that feature!

Dominion is a joke, just like Major League Gaming.  It's less about skill and more about what champions you pick that are overpowered, if that could even be possible in a game of LoL.  Some people say that League is like HoN -em, but if you wanted a real comparison, Dominion is like HoN -em.  But worse.  At least the first iterations of DotA involved some skill, even if Eul couldn't balance shit.

DotA was more balanced than LoL, so nope.

Homogenization ultimately creates faded heroes.  I'll explain it again.

In HoN / Dota 2, abilities and items are more powerful because they don't have to be balanced against potential summoner spells / runes / masteries.  Because of this, ultimates from a potentially weaker character can still be game-changing.  So even if you have a hero in HoN / Dota 2 that isn't up to par with the best, their ultimate can still change the game.  Plague Rider / Lich aren't that good at support but when the ult rolls out, the enemy team either runs off in split directions in a panic or they die.  This is what makes characters viable.

In LoL, abilities aren't as powerful, and CC doesn't last as long.  If a character is completely outmatched by another, then there is no reason to bring the other champ in.  Miss Fortune is a high damage carry that can pump out some nasty AOE, but MF's skill set gives her no real escape or utility beyond 'a lot of AOE damage', so if her team isn't specifically crafted around her, then you may as well put Vayne in the game.

--

We could make teams that synergize with certain underplayed champs like Poppy or Yi or whatever.  The problem is, what do you have to sacrifice to build that team?  If you lack CC, then things start going real bad.  What if you don't have someone to initiate a fight? Poppy's 'initiation' only works on players who don't know what they are doing.  The reason that certain champs are used more is because they have more utility and can do their job without relying on the other team members to sacrifice their own ability to contribute to the game.

Originally posted by Khaeros

 A game doesn't need 'new design' to be exciting to players who already love DotA but want to get out of the WC3 limitations.  There's a reason DotA / HoN / Dota 2 players have played thousands of games - it's because they like the game as it is.  They're not looking for Dominion.  It's not important to them.  DotA / HoN / Dota 2 are complex enough that it can keep them held for a very long time.  LoL, on the other hand..  well, that is a toally different argument.

 It doesn't strengthen anything.  Both Dota 2 and HoN have developed features that DotA couldn't.  Denying is now considered a tactic in both games, and makes laning more complex - removing it just made LoL less complex in lane.  Is dumbing down the game considered 'development of the genre'? 

 Reconnecting is now possible.  Observer tools are now enhanced than what they were in WC3 - in LoL, where's the observer mode that's informative?  Where's the replays?  You mean I have to download a third party program to watch replays in LoL?  For fuck's sake, WC3 itself had that feature!

 Dominion is a joke, just like Major League Gaming.  It's less about skill and more about what champions you pick that are overpowered, if that could even be possible in a game of LoL.  Some people say that League is like HoN -em, but if you wanted a real comparison, Dominion is like HoN -em.  But worse.  At least the first iterations of DotA involved some skill, even if Eul couldn't balance shit.

 DotA was more balanced than LoL, so nope.

 Homogenization ultimately creates faded heroes.  I'll explain it again. 

In HoN / Dota 2, abilities and items are more powerful because they don't have to be balanced against potential summoner spells / runes / masteries.  Because of this, ultimates from a potentially weaker character can still be game-changing.  So even if you have a hero in HoN / Dota 2 that isn't up to par with the best, their ultimate can still change the game.  Plague Rider / Lich aren't that good at support but when the ult rolls out, the enemy team either runs off in split directions in a panic or they die.  This is what makes characters viable.

 In LoL, abilities aren't as powerful, and CC doesn't last as long.  If a character is completely outmatched by another, then there is no reason to bring the other champ in.  Miss Fortune is a high damage carry that can pump out some nasty AOE, but MF's skill set gives her no real escape or utility beyond 'a lot of AOE damage', so if her team isn't specifically crafted around her, then you may as well put Vayne in the game.

We could make teams that synergize with certain underplayed champs like Poppy or Yi or whatever.  The problem is, what do you have to sacrifice to build that team?  If you lack CC, then things start going real bad.  What if you don't have someone to initiate a fight? Poppy's 'initiation' only works on players who don't know what they are doing.  The reason that certain champs are used more is because they have more utility and can do their job without relying on the other team members to sacrifice their own ability to contribute to the game.

Um, yes but the point was that without attempts at new designs you wouldn't even have had DOTA, which was a new design itself at one point.  So obviously attempts at new things are good.

Denying was a bad mechanic which made no damn sense.  It's great that you think it makes sense for a hero in an army to slay his own soldier to deprive the enemy of resources, but it's a bad mechanic.  What replaced it (hit-trading) is actually a more interesting and logical mechanic.  They last-hit, you get free harass damage.

Moaning about replays is somewhat valid, yet at the same time clearly that's not something that's prevented LOL from being wildly more successful than DOTA or HON.

Homogenization isn't that great, but the point wasn't whether it was desirable but that it clearly (when you think about it logically) doesn't hurt balance.  You implied it did.

CC not lasting as long is a huge strongpoint actually.  PVP games which revolve around being able to be CCed completely until death are actually pretty poorly designed.  It's not really PVP if it's not players fighting players.  And stunlock->death isn't a fight.

As for some champs lacking CC, clearly there's some value of damage and health where Yi would not be considered a detriment to a team despite a lack of CC.  And really you think everyone should have CC?  What was it you just got finished complaining about?  Homogenization?

Originally posted by drbaltazar

i saw this gem of a game yesterday at sunday sub request,in towelliee channel at twitch!and men this game looks fun!

i do hope some here make a review of it!it sound like it is in beta tho

super monday night combat!yes yes the sequel to monday night combat!

i had never heard of that name till i saw it on towelliee dam it was hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5a9O1YyfrU 

here is an exemple!

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Originally posted by shovi12

Originally posted by drbaltazar

i saw this gem of a game yesterday at sunday sub request,in towelliee channel at twitch!and men this game looks fun!

i do hope some here make a review of it!it sound like it is in beta tho

super monday night combat!yes yes the sequel to monday night combat!

i had never heard of that name till i saw it on towelliee dam it was hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5a9O1YyfrU 

here is an exemple!

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 Yeah, well you know this is a forum.  A place where people go to discuss their opinions. 

Side note:  At PAX I'll have the chance to sit down with the folks at Uber for an interview.  I wanted to see what questions the community might have and if there was anything in particular you would like to see answered.  Please let me know through whatever means you prefer.