Originally posted by karat76

 I miss the community of games like DAoC and more of  games feeling like a virtual world not a quest bub hop scotch game. I hate the end game raid or die for epics style games.

Yep. Read my post at the very top of the page before this one about my Rift experience earlier today. It has been like that in EVERY post-WoW MMO I have tried. Sad sad times.

Cooperative gameplay.  

Nonforced PvP.  

Games without pvp at all.

Actual player communities as opposed to mindless grinding for max everything.

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

The wonder and the freshness of the then-new concept. Oops, That was two!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

Why are you still here in this thread trying to convince people what to like and not to like? We get it that you like WoW, no one is saying you're wrong for it. Please grow up and learn that not everyone wants what you want in an MMO.

I miss having to actually use my brain. 

Originally posted by Vannor

The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

Originally posted by Alasti

Another thing I miss was the rarity of good items in the game....What I mean is...Not EVERYONE was able to get EVERY item in the game like they are now....

Yep. Rare actually meant Rare.

That goes a lot to player menatlity, though. Once upon a time, many players were satisfied with enjoying the experience of playing the game, being in the world and hanging out with cool people doing fun stuff. Now, most people seem to only care about how much cool loot are they getting, how many levels they can get, and were they able to do all of it by themselves in less than an hour.

Calling most things Rare anymore is pointless. It should be considered common.

You'll always know when there's something truly rare in the game, 'cause those people will be raging on the forums about how unfair it is that they have to put in time more and effort than they want (e.g. more than 20 minutes or so) to acquire it.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Vannor

The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

You sir, know what you're talking about.

It is very true that people have stopped even wanting to experience MMO's. They just want to win at all times and couldn't care less about the details. Just as long as they're 'winning'. It's like going on a hike through a beautiful forest and never bothering to look at it.

We have lost perspective and clog our gametime with superficiality that we don't actually care about or enjoy. Countless times i've talked to people that suddenly came to the realization that they haven't actually enjoyed the game they've been playing for years and have just been playing based on a built up compulsion to compete with everyone else.

It's so easy to slip into the herd mentality in MMO's to the point that you're so crammed in with the rest of the cattle that you've forgotten what the world even looks like. You just see other cows.

I miss nothing from old games like EQ, AO and UO..nothing at all. I am quite happy with what i am playign right now and upcoming titles like TSW and AA.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

Why are you still here in this thread trying to convince people what to like and not to like? We get it that you like WoW, no one is saying you're wrong for it. Please grow up and learn that not everyone wants what you want in an MMO.

Pointing out the traits of WOW is hardly "convincing them what to like". If people miss things that exist in current MMORPGs, it's fair to point out that it's them that changed, not the games.

If anyone's being immature, it's you for getting all bent out of shape about it.

Community

even in WoW there was a community. People hanging out in Ironforge, rallying outside Tarren Mill, gathering for receiving a buff from returning Onyxia's Head, etc. Horde putting cheap materials on Booty Bay AH, so Alliance could unlock AQ aswell. Other games had great communities too. Nowadays I feel lonely in all recent launched mmos.

In what other genre is making an exact copy of a game acceptable?

Originally posted by OberanMiM

I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

 

I prefer to queue for a random group so I don't have to spam endlessly "lfg" in the channels. I go into dungeons to kill stuff and it is fine with me if the only talk is about asking a player not to step into the fire.

If i want to chat, i will chat with my guildies or friends.

You state your preferences. I state mine. See .. differences in opinions on the internet. How exciting!

Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

Unique Player Characters

Today's MMORPGs literally have players wear the same gear as everyone else. In Everquest, you would have different combinations of gear and even use different gear for different encounters or dungeons.

 

Today, everyone wearing the same Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier X gear. It is ridiculous, insipid, and creatively lazy.

 

Everyone looks the same. No individualism. No uniqueness. Surprised people pay money for that.

hmm ... what game are you playing?

Many games have systems that change the look of gear so you can customize it. May be you should do LESS ranting, and actually go look at game features before settling into a game that does not allow you to do that.

Originally posted by Indol

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Vannor

The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

You sir, know what you're talking about.

 

It is very true that people have stopped even wanting to experiencing MMO's. They just want to win at all times and couldn't care less about the details. Just as long as they're 'winning'. It's like going on a hike through a beautiful forest and never bothering to look at it.

 

We have lost perspective and clog our gametime with superficiality that we don't actually care about or enjoy. Countless times i've talked to people that suddenly came to the realization that they haven't actually enjoyed the game they've been playing for years and have just been playing based on a built up compulsion to compete with everyone else.

 

It's so easy to slip into the herd mentality in MMO's to the point that you're so crammed in with the rest of the cattle that you've forgotten what the world even looks like. You just see other cows.

Merely customizing the appearance---different colors and what have you---is not the "unique" player character concept that I referred to by any means.

I meant unique when I stated "unique," not merely slightly different. Completely different gear, history, items, abilities, spells, attributes - everything. 

The physical appearance of the character is one small aspect of unique player characters.

Originally posted by RefMinor
Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

With the miracles of modern technology our world is less"busy" than ever before. 

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor
Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

With the miracles of modern technology our world is less"busy" than ever before. 

The trap of technology is that when you can get more done in the same time you make more money. Which seems good. Except then the producers just raise the prices. So all that extra money you thought you had is sucked into the cycle very quickly.