Quote from my guildmaster years ago:

Quote

I just wanted to comment on this. "The Game" wasn't the best pvp game. It was the best GROUP/GUILD pvp game. It took coordination, dedication, tactics, thinking outside the box, and it took discipline to be great in that game. No game has even come CLOSE to the amount of analysis "The Game" required to be cream of the crop. There was ONE reason for this. The MASSIVE amount of character builds and variation, and the speed at which you could build those characters. The game was a never ending rock/paper/scissors match. You could kill an entire week just building, testing, and analyzing different builds and spec groups. AS A GUILD. It is one of the main reasons I can't get into any other MMO. "The Game" system spoiled me. I just get BLEEPing bored with the garbage character/group dynamics in every other game. It's too simple. There's just nothing to it. Outside of "The Game", there really is no such thing as a true "spec group". All these other games really have nothing to work on as a guild either... Unless you count farming...

Will we ever see a game like this ever again?  This game also had massive battles of up to 1500 players that few other games have duplicated and this was back in 2003.  Will any game ever top this in the future?

It seems MMO's these days are losing the massive components and turning into single player games or multiplayer arenas.  When will this ever change?

PS: Game name removed as it does not matter.  Only the concept of what an MMO used to stand for does matter.

I haven't found one yet...

The only way Shadowbane can be resurrected is through fan dedication. I agree, Shadowbane was the greatest mmorpg ever made.

Originally posted by I_Return

The only way Shadowbane can be resurrected is through fan dedication. I agree, Shadowbane was the greatest mmorpg ever made.

It wasn't that great to most, because it died rather quickly

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by I_Return

The only way Shadowbane can be resurrected is through fan dedication. I agree, Shadowbane was the greatest mmorpg ever made.

It wasn't that great to most, because it died rather quickly

Agreed.  Opinions and all, but it died rather quick for the above statement to be true.  

the great die young,

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by I_Return

The only way Shadowbane can be resurrected is through fan dedication. I agree, Shadowbane was the greatest mmorpg ever made.

It wasn't that great to most, because it died rather quickly

However this isn't about Shadowbane.  It is about the future of MASSIVE and multiplyer games.  The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense.  Where are the real MMO's at?

Shadowbane was an amazing game and was not for the weak.

I find that most people who didn't like that game didn't like it because they like things handed to them. Games like WoW and the like don't require much thinking with PvP (or anything else for that matter).  SB had the most crazy @zz customization options of any damn game. There was a ton of options. One day you have the best builds and your guild plows over folks. A week later someone came up with a guild build to counter yours and you lose. That was freaking fun.

Yes, SB had a lot of problems, but I agree with the OP. His guildleader was correct.

mmo's never stood for anything.

that elitism is like saying "social-networking or email used to stand for something and now they dont!"

if you think there genuinely was a great game which had large market draw, and you can see a bunch of ways to improve upon it, use what you learned from the experiances, combine them with other ideas and make the great game.

reminising about 'better times' doesn't really accomplish anything and the degree of community you might get will always be a hollow and shameful echo of the glory days- so don't let the glory days die. resurect them in holy manifests for a voyage of wit and will endeavoring unto glory.

personally i aggree. i think calling 'facebook games' mmos when mmos should be immersive, complex, resource hogs, has taken meaning out of the genre. but it doesn't demean what i love just the name/title. the games we love which vallidate the human condition and help us explore our limits, and those of our peers, will always have a place not only in our hearts but in our hard drives.

mmorpgs in my perception of what they should be, wont be shamed by the amazing success of casual games. and as developers and programers we can add some small elements of all the major approaches to the MMO market segment to support the thing we love. i think social integration will be the way of future gaming, just as you do.

but you might have some far better ideas on how to accomplish it- i for one am disinterested in classic PvP. so take your ideas and form them up, try getting people who share your passions together to make a new product or in a manner similar to that other forum post you made- maybe try getting a fund started to help garner support for the game you love by entering a dialogue with your favorite development team.

but will we ever see a game as great as one we had as children? not if we don't make it.:)

MMORPG's did stand for something when they were initially created. They were fantastic, beautiful worlds crafted by gamers, for gamers.

In present, gamers no longer means the same thing as the term has broadened to encapsulate a significantly larger amount of people and types of gamers.

There is no denying that, good or bad, video games have been heavily changed by money, business, and maximixing player audience in many regards. "Real gamers" as some would call them, no longer make video games. Instead, a colleciton of designers, artists, businessmen, and mostly producers backed by big money create video games.

Long gone are the days of indie developers? Not by a long shot. There are still indie developers and small indie teams making it big. For example, Darkfall is a prime example of a gamer by gamers, for gamers. It started as a small team with their own unique vision of a video game world. Granted that vision wasn't a very good one in my opinion, but it WAS a unique one, and although the features in the game are very limited compared to what they should have done (in my opinion) it is still an indie team making a game "by gamers, for gamers." and that DOES mean something to all "real gamers". HOWEVER, the amount of indie developers with quality ideas backed by money is almost non-existent. This is the big change. In the beginning (Pre-WoW) MMORPG's were backed with millions of dollars with teams of Gamers: By Gamers, For Gamers. Now (Post-WoW) MMORPG's are backed by even more money with teams of "business professionals". The gamers are no longer in control, and many are no longer backed by money because "It isn't WoW".

I am not saying "real gamers" are defined by their love for FFA PvP. That is irrelevant to the definition. Real Gamers are simply the *original* group of nerds, "hardcore", or long-time gamers (more nerds) who all desire gameplay depth over game simplification. They desire developers to design focused on key gameplay styles as opposed to dilluting the game by attempting to bring in as many people as possible.

For example, a game similar to EQ1's design (PvE focus, harder leveling, slower pace, etc.) would be considered a "real gamers" design but by business it would be considered "Niche" because that group of gamers are only a fraction of the possible subscribers. Darkfall's FFA PvP crowd is also niche, along with any other single-focus game.

What is NOT niche? When a game tries to encapsulate MULTIPLE sub-groups to leech as many people's wallets as possible. This design, created by the desire for maximum profit (as opposed to quality of game design) destroys each niche group in hopes of gathering a percentage of each niche group that when combined, is significantly larger than the total niche group.

Grab % of FFA PvP niche crowd, % of PvE crowd, % of hardcores, % of casuals, % of organized PvP crowd, and you have a larger audience than 100% of any single sub-group. It doesn't matter if you only grab 20% of the FFA PvP Crowd because you might grab 80% of the PvE crowd and 50% of the "Where did they come from?" crowd, which combines to be larger than 100% of the FFA PvP Crowd or larger than 100% of the PvE crowd.

It's NOT about maximizing profits or designing great games. These are both possible in niche designs.

It IS about game depth vs game simplification. Game focus vs Game dillution. Sacrifice of Design which diminishes Quality.

By Gamers, for Gamers, =VS= By Business, for Profit.

As you can see, the term "real gamers" are those who care more for the GAME than they do for the BUSINESS.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense. 

While there's no guarantee of an absence of developer nonsense, both Lineage 2 and EVE Online can offer you most of what you are asking for.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense. 

While there's no guarantee of an absence of developer nonsense, both Lineage 2 and EVE Online can offer you most of what you are asking for.

EvE is relatively similar to Shadowbane compared to other MMOs but I don't think he wants to play ShadowBane in space.

Lineage is nothing like Shadowbane.

Originally posted by lenybob

mmo's never stood for anything.

that elitism is like saying "social-networking or email used to stand for something and now they dont!"

 

if you think there genuinely was a great game which had large market draw, and you can see a bunch of ways to improve upon it, use what you learned from the experiances, combine them with other ideas and make the great game.

 

reminising about 'better times' doesn't really accomplish anything and the degree of community you might get will always be a hollow and shameful echo of the glory days- so don't let the glory days die. resurect them in holy manifests for a voyage of wit and will endeavoring unto glory.

 

personally i aggree. i think calling 'facebook games' mmos when mmos should be immersive, complex, resource hogs, has taken meaning out of the genre. but it doesn't demean what i love just the name/title. the games we love which vallidate the human condition and help us explore our limits, and those of our peers, will always have a place not only in our hearts but in our hard drives.

 

mmorpgs in my perception of what they should be, wont be shamed by the amazing success of casual games. and as developers and programers we can add some small elements of all the major approaches to the MMO market segment to support the thing we love. i think social integration will be the way of future gaming, just as you do.

 

but you might have some far better ideas on how to accomplish it- i for one am disinterested in classic PvP. so take your ideas and form them up, try getting people who share your passions together to make a new product or in a manner similar to that other forum post you made- maybe try getting a fund started to help garner support for the game you love by entering a dialogue with your favorite development team.

 

but will we ever see a game as great as one we had as children? not if we don't make it.:)

My mom didn't use to use social networking... Now that she does it's lame.  Same goes for MMO's. 6 year old didn't used to play them either.

Then you get these jokers telling YOU to make the great game. Sure will buddy... Just give me your bank account info and your social.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense. 

While there's no guarantee of an absence of developer nonsense, both Lineage 2 and EVE Online can offer you most of what you are asking for.

CCP put restrictions on their mini-servers to reduce the massive part.  Yes, you can get 100 player battles but thats about it.  L2?  I just spent 20 minutes trying to find anything bigger than 30 players vs 30 players.  Again, not massive and this is only one point of many that I pointed out as a flaw in today's single player fake MMO's.

Hmm reading the OPs post made me think of Shadowbane also and it also made me think of DAoC. Both of those games had massive battles. Fact is, if MyThick had never made the bad expansion ToA I would probably be playing that game still to this day. But MyThick did so i am not playing it. Shadowbane died, it died because of developer misteps, and i think it died because there was no mechanic to combat the uber zerg guilds, well other than joining them.

Anyhow, i got GW2 to look forward to along with TSW and Dominus. Even ArcheAge if we live past Dec. 2012 ;)

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense. 

While there's no guarantee of an absence of developer nonsense, both Lineage 2 and EVE Online can offer you most of what you are asking for.

CCP put restrictions on their mini-servers to reduce the massive part.  Yes, you can get 100 player battles but thats about it.  L2?  I just spent 20 minutes trying to find anything bigger than 30 players vs 30 players.  Again, not massive and this is only one point of many that I pointed out as a flaw in today's single player fake MMO's.

What?  I've been out of EVE for a bit, but I still think they host space battles of up to 1000 vs 1000 on a regular basis.

As for L2, my first castle siege on a new server was bigger than 30 v 30, (this was back in January), seemed to be about 100-150 players roaming about, but of course I didn't take an exact count.

As for "the game" having larger battles, I was there (for the 1st 3 months anyways) and almost every fight was a major lagfest that was nearly unplayable which is one major reason why the title died.  Maybe they improved it later on, but that was far too little and too late.

I do think SB had some amazing ideas, most notable their loot system and the many classes but its overwhelming flaws killed whatever chance it had of becoming a true legend.

DAOC has some pretty amazing battles back in the day, but I do recall the really large relic keep fights being largely unplayable on my hardware at least.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

However this isn't about Shadowbane.  It is about the future of MASSIVE and multiplyer games.  The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense.  Where are the real MMO's at?

I couldn't agree with you more! I still play MMOs n stuff, but they aren't as massively multiplayer as they once were and there is far less cooperation or competition between players than there once was.  I just think about DAoC (ok there it was realms rather than guilds, but guilds got their own reputations too back in the day), UO, SWG pre-NGE, EQ and then I compare it to Rift, today's WoW, etc. Since 2004, MMOs have been going slowly away from massive PvP or even PvE battles, player communities and economies, and more towards heavy storylines that are almost impossible to steer away from, lack of freedom, and nothing to build communities.
 

I am by no means saying that Rift, today's WoW, etc. are bad games, but they certainly do not reflect what MMOs were originally about: expansive virtual worlds that players could immerse themselves in and experience as an alternate to reality. Part of that reality was about community. No game released recently seems to have come across the great crafting and community systems that were put in place in SWG pre-NGE, and I think that is a real pity. Having games that exclusively rely on combat and gearing up just don't cut it for long-term play for most people unless they are extremely casual and play very little.

It was not great at all so many bugs so much lag huge battles where unplayable. In so manyway boring also.

Its not even close to a much better sandbox(only first2years) called Asheron's call-Darktide it was ALOT better then SB still i dont call it greatest of them all it just was great game SB was maybe mediocre at best.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by -Zeno-

 The first two M's in MMORPG.  I want to have that 500 vs 500 battle again.  I want to make guild groups mean something.  I want player justice and not developer nonsense. 

While there's no guarantee of an absence of developer nonsense, both Lineage 2 and EVE Online can offer you most of what you are asking for.

CCP put restrictions on their mini-servers to reduce the massive part.  Yes, you can get 100 player battles but thats about it.  L2?  I just spent 20 minutes trying to find anything bigger than 30 players vs 30 players.  Again, not massive and this is only one point of many that I pointed out as a flaw in today's single player fake MMO's.

I think you're confusing games, as 100 pilots in battle is a walk in the part for EVE.  With Time Dilation and the latest performance updates, EVE is now handling 1,000 to 2,000 pilot battles pretty solidly.

More is not automatically better. Not in PvP.