Originally posted by PukeBucket

Why do all the soloers herd to a topic and collectively whine, or go to a game forum and collectively whine, all in all collectively whine.

Yet.

They don't play a MMO to be apart of the mulitplayer aspect?

Solo content should end within the first third of a game, and then the creatures of the world should be too dangerous to take on alone.

I know Megaman never got his hand freakin' held so much and all he had was a dog with a spring on his back at best.

And people don't whine about grouping?

I liked eq's need for groups, but even in that game people could solo.  The dumbest thing an MMORPG have is to force groups for things that shouldn't need groups...

Like 6 players to kill a sheep.... a drake sure.... but a sheep?

The solution is rather simple I think. Just have content for both kind of play styles. I like to solo stuff once in a while, but as soon as I am able to hit the dungeons I will PuG my way up to max level and continue doing so. Why? Because I play for the social experience and doing stuff together is just fun.

Of course, you also get some bad groups and players once in a while, but nothing is perfect, right? I like being part of a team and overcoming challenges together. I hate the fact that soloing has become so much more profitable than grouping, so that you are actually gimping yourself when you invite another player to do quests and stuff.

This kind of trend needs to go imo, and hopefully future games will have content made for both playstyles without sacrificing the one for the other.

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Why do all the soloers herd to a topic and collectively whine, or go to a game forum and collectively whine, all in all collectively whine.

Yet.

They don't play a MMO to be apart of the mulitplayer aspect?

Solo content should end within the first third of a game, and then the creatures of the world should be too dangerous to take on alone.

I know Megaman never got his hand freakin' held so much and all he had was a dog with a spring on his back at best.

 Please do enlighten up as to how playing a game which you can be surrounded by players (weither you are in group with them or not.) is not playing a multi-player game or aspect. Now where in tthe definition of multiplayer does it say you have to be grouped or playing co-up with someone to be playing a multiplayer game. Also everyone from groupers, soloers, pvper, pveers all whine in groups. There are many different ways of playing a game in a multiplayer aspect which ranges from playing pvp (you are playing in a VS concept that can be done in a massive battle that you might be playing with others around you or just solo along side them.), you might be competeing with other players for mats or nods (that is another pvp type of activity really in that you are interacting with other players in the enviroment.), and you have guild activities that are also multiplayer activities as well. So where is this fact that the modern mmos are not being layed in a multiplayer aspect of play trully? I can tell you i had many time been involved in grouped or ungrouped activities with several other players that ranged from pvping, gathering (me and several others fought over nodes, mobs, and such), rare huntering (anyone saying that when hunting for rares was not in someways a solo/multiplayer experince has never been jumped by five or ten guys when they spawn and needed to request assstance.). I find people that whine about games being too solo focus ust want to force other gamers to play with them by forcing grouping, since they cann't get groups otherwise (either their pour players, arrogent, selfish, pig headed, rude, childish, or just a fun leech.). Even in games where soloing was supposed to be far better for leveling i could get groups quite easy, and have blast in them, but we grouped not out of need to but for the fun of each others company. SO maybe all of you out there that have issues finding groups or invites really need to look somewhere else first.

You make me laugh only a third of the game that players have paided for, and are subed to should be able to be played solo regardless if the paying player wishes to or not? There is a differnce between getting your hand held in a game (hell most of the hardest games in game history were solo games), and a game being have a ample supply of solo content. It should always be viable option to solo in a game (with content that built around that factor.), as much as it is viable option to group in a game (with the same factor of content being built around that desire.). Even in the real world (this is a breathing world that mmo world were trying to mimic trully.) you do not have to be social or even make friends to ennjoy and live your life, but doing so opens more options as well as factors to you, but living without such friends does the same honestly. That is one thigns i think should be done is to make much of the content equally spread between group as well as solo content, but then make it that there is alot fo content that is exclusive to either group or solo players with rewards that are solely gained from that content.

The other funny thing is that most mmo players i know who no longer group up outside of guild/friend groups do so because of the elitist pricks and terrible players that exist in the world, and i cann't blame them in that as they are paying for a an enjoyable experince. Why should they have to relinquish their enjoyment to cater to other player's enjoyment, and mosot likely end up hating the gaming experince of that session trully. People are always saying how players should learned to play as their inability to play well costs others time in playing a game they pay to enjoy, but then some of these players complain that players refuse to group with them forcing them to solo or change their playstyle reducing their own enjoyment.

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Why do all the soloers herd to a topic and collectively whine, or go to a game forum and collectively whine, all in all collectively whine.

Yet.

They don't play a MMO to be apart of the mulitplayer aspect?

Solo content should end within the first third of a game, and then the creatures of the world should be too dangerous to take on alone.

I know Megaman never got his hand freakin' held so much and all he had was a dog with a spring on his back at best.

And people don't whine about grouping?

 

I liked eq's need for groups, but even in that game people could solo.  The dumbest thing an MMORPG have is to force groups for things that shouldn't need groups...

 

Like 6 players to kill a sheep.... a drake sure.... but a sheep?

  have to agree here with how what you are fighting should make sense to if you need a group to fight it. I mean a goblin, kobolt, beasts are all relatively weak, stupid as well as easy to fight alone, but in a massive group they are a formitable oppenent for any player or group. Yet some other things should require groups like golems, ,massive monsters (such as dragons, giants, dinosaurs.) as it makes sense fo them based on their size as well as danger. Yet also your character is supposed to be gaining in power as you level/progress so why is it that you would never seem to actually grow stronger merely gaining just enouph strength to take on that next area's mobs. By that way of thinking lets jsut throw away all of the mob designs leaving only the sheep mob, and then just raise it's level to where t is always a challlenge to fight regardless of what you have at that time.

I say created zones that are geared towards content for either solo or group play, with the mobs being approiate to the style of play used. If you are dong group content you might be raiding a castle, a platue that is infested with dragonkin, or even high up in the mountains where you fight powerful mobs as well as take enviromental damage as well (this would make soloing impossible as a healer would be crusshed by the mobs, tankers would be grinded down by the constent damage, dps would explode from the heavy hits of the creatures making a group needed.). Then you could make a valley or succh that is populated by lesser creatures that are less threatening to you, but are still a threat to the people within the valley.

Um... Isabelle...

[mod edit]

Solo has a negative impact on MMO's. Why? The developers have to focus more effort on these 'soloers' that could be spent working on the second letter of MMO. If 'soloers' want to play 'solo', they should be doing what 'soloers' have been doing for a long time now. Single Player gaming. That's what it was made for.

Why waste resources catering to a batch of whiners (and oh yes, do the Soloers ever whine... and demand... etc) that constantly demand that they be catered for, when you could be building what an MMO exists for: Multiplayer content. The genre isn't called Massively Multiplayer Online for no reason. Since solo became a huge deal in most MMO's, they degenerated in to Single Player with online chat games. With so much focus on the 'solo' aspects of modern MMO's, it isn't a surprise that the group play has degenerated in to piles of dung. I honestly see the industry as an old man, attached to my back, waving an old fishing rod over my head, with something delicious attached to the hook. I blame 'solo' for this.

I would be best described as a casual solo player... have one character around lvl 50 and have never joined a guild and have had only one or two groups while playing up to this level...  Join a guild? no thanks don't need the drama queen fest... If they didn't have solo stuff to do, then I wouldn't pay my subscription fee..  If I wanted to 'group' I would just fire up mIRC...  I have been in exactly one raid since playing at the launch of EQ1.

I am not asking for extra perks because I solo... just the basic content to level my character and not have to group with a bunch of whiny loot whores.  I have soloed in every MMO I have played from EQ1 onwards... any MMO that ignores people like myself won't be getting my money

Flawed game design destroys MMOs. 

One of the best staff articles I've ever read on this site. And it's quite hillarious to see some of the responses by exactly the type of persons the OP was adressing it to.

Good stuff ;P

Originally posted by PukeBucket

This article has the "I didn't eat all the cake" argument all over it.

There's crumbs in the box and bits of frosting on the lid of the box.

Soloers didn't completely destroy MMOs, but you know for the most part you did.

Apologies are needed, not excuses.

Excuse me?

You are not owed shit because folks are playing the way they wish.  If anything, I would say you folks owe us for being forced to endure all the whine posts in our game forums. You know....games there were not intended for the strictly grouping crowd.

Major props to OP on this opinion piece.

The way soloers spoil the game for me is the class balancing. Every class is balanced for soloing and pvp, they can mostly all function on equal footing. Why should a cleric be able to fight aswell as a fighter who as spent his life learning to fight? Also a warrior (a chump with a heavy stick) should be absolutely terrified of a mage. His only chance being if he catches the mage quick and unawares. Yet because of soloers wanting balance a warrior is near equal to a mage (who's spells are little more than ranged "melee" attacks).

I dont have issues with players who prefer to solo content, what I have an issue with is developers nerfing parts of the game ie mobs to try and gain more players to their game. softening the game to attract more players.  As to free stuff, If I'm paying for my MMO on a monthly basis then I expect that money to pay for more content,  not having to fork out more notes from my wallet I feel I've already paid for.  The excuse that subs pay for the bandwidth doesnt wash anymore.

The problem with most MMO's that are and have been released the past few years, have had no real thought gone into them, the developers have not researched or done their homework and have thrown their products to the wolves who have chewed them up and spat them back out to the developers feet because they had a lack of meat.  Trying to palm us of with clones and copies of already successful games to make a fast buck isnt the way to go.  Developers need to get some talent and grow some.

Originally posted by Tyroki

Um... Isabelle...

[mod edit]

Solo has a negative impact on MMO's. Why? The developers have to focus more effort on these 'soloers' that could be spent working on the second letter of MMO. If 'soloers' want to play 'solo', they should be doing what 'soloers' have been doing for a long time now. Single Player gaming. That's what it was made for.

Why waste resources catering to a batch of whiners (and oh yes, do the Soloers ever whine... and demand... etc) that constantly demand that they be catered for, when you could be building what an MMO exists for: Multiplayer content. The genre isn't called Massively Multiplayer Online for no reason. Since solo became a huge deal in most MMO's, they degenerated in to Single Player with online chat games. With so much focus on the 'solo' aspects of modern MMO's, it isn't a surprise that the group play has degenerated in to piles of dung. I honestly see the industry as an old man, attached to my back, waving an old fishing rod over my head, with something delicious attached to the hook. I blame 'solo' for this.

I could say the same of why waste the money on a minority of the mmo gaming community, as most of the players are soloist not group-ist players. Also i find it funny that as mmos have become more mainstream (in response also more profitable, and popular too.) that they have become more solo-based (hmm that might be  from the fact that gamers prefer to game eeither with small groups they chose or alone maybe.), and so it is logical to place the focus on the area that is where the consumer wants it to be. You are funny with the entire soloers whine since actually groupers whine so much more then a solo player, most of all they are worse as they want to enforce a playstyle on another players that might not want to (by making the game forced grouping you completely remvoe the option to solo), compared to a soloer that merely wants to play as they determine yet also allows the grouper to do so as  well (it is not the soloist fault that your friends or random people find spending time with you in a group worse then spending time alone without you. I mean i gladdly take a reduction in my leveling speed to group with friends as they do with me.). Also it is not the soloist that has made the game about reaching the end game as fast as possible making it that you must use the method that garners you the most experince per hour, it is the game starts at end game mentality that is making that.

I love your comment about soloers can always go back to single player games, but yet so could all the forced groupng players as well go back to their co-up and vs games too if they want group content. The M in MMO does not stand for forced grouping or anythign other then playing in a game that gives you the ability to play with, against, or merely alongside other layers in a massive world. So explain to me how a soloer playing their character along side 500 other players in a zones, regardless of if they are grouped with those players or not,  is not a multiplayer experince or in the spirit of a mmo game. Honestly i would say forced grouping is more against what a mmo should be, as everyone in the world does not have to be rely on each other completely regardless (MMO worlds are supposed to be living breathing worlds like ours right.), and so we should have choices of going at it alone or teaming up without being forced.

Myself i would blame you [mod edit] for allowing your own views to paint the fact that others are taking away from you somethign, when in truth you are doing that yourself. There are many group centertic games or forced grouping games out there you can play, but yet you want the entirity of the mmo gaming experincce to cater to your sole style or desires. Then you chose to demean the genre or games for doing what players who pay good monney want so theat these gamers can enjoy their game that they paid for. You sound like some rich sonby brat of a child that goteverythign they wanted no matter what the cost to others, and if you did not get what you wanted you thru a tantrum till they bowed to your baby whining. I mea you trry and determine somethign to mean one thigns over what it actually means, then you whine about how you are not being catered to by the devs in games sayinng that their choices have damaged the genre now.  I uess like many of the older gamers that i started UO with you still think you are entiled to have what you want even when you are in the minority, and you want the your content to be created with the money created by all those soloist that have subbed to the mmos now. I got no issues with rewarding and giving incentives for grouping or soloing, but i havve an issue with forcing grouping or even soloing on players that do not want it, and yet that is the issues not enouph games placce high enouph incentive on grouping right now.

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

I don't think the issue has ever been that soloers or casuals destroy games.  Both have existed in MMORPGs from the beginning.

 

The way I see it, the issue is that developers destroy games when they favor solo play to such a large degree that game mechanics for grouping and community interaction are contradicted, removed or gimped beyond usefulness.

 

About 1st sentence ...is not problem as casuals and soloer destroying anything, problem is with jobless people or "eternal" students that can afford to play every day strait i.e. 6 do 15 hours. But I do not have nothing against. Problem i see with so many of them that they are so VOCAL (obviusly having so much time). Well I do many times on weekends, vacations, ... but mainly I do not have luxury to be able to plan 1 week or more in advance for some raid and then commit staying in game for hours and hours.

As for 2nd ... kind'a agree. But as said when I log for 1 hour or 2, I will NOT lfg-ing for all this time and when finnaly get group I have to go. Will never forget that I have spent literaly 2 weeks to get my warlock mount when it was par of elite quest. So .... if I have to choose ... I prefer by large measure solo friendly game.

Same goes for PVP. I'm kind-a annyed by people (mainly kids I guess) roling on PVE(!) server to then bother all around and constantly for dueling. If you are such heroe ... go on PVP server.

I play also MMO's because they are supperior in design and gameplay to any other game you can install localy. But said this I would never bother with games like FF IX and pressing on players that enjoyit to make it solo friendly. FF IX is heavily group oriented game so never appealed to me. Darkfall is oriented only to PVP so I would never bother at all to download and try to play.

Said so however I'm not oriented toward dumbing down game that is doing well. Speaking of Wow that i will for sure go back and play.

But now I guess have found my ideal game in Swtor. Is completely up to player if will level doing only class quest + flash points or will - like me - solo through entire game. But what I love is that eventually will die from time to time. Not in wow anymore, one must be really dumber to die with any quest there. In swtor one need a lot of tactics. Said so I never buy in ah anything ... all epic guess game would become more easy then intented.

But at the end all goes to $ or € factor. And is up to company to decide how to manage to get money.

I wonder if many players see grouping more of a hassle then actual fun. There are several issues that always pop up on games forums about grouping that players complain about (also from groupfocussed players).

- Need/Greed issues when rolling for loot : This one is quite obvious in how easy it is that it will cause conflict.

- Finding the players for right group composition: No one likes to wait for hours untill they finally can play the game.

- Having to repeat groupcontent to at least have a chance of obtaining gear which only drops in that groupcontent : All content becomes boring if you have to repeat it too often to your liking.

And for me, my personal issue with grouping in many MMORPG's :

- Lack of mentor/sidekick system: I always play with rl friends of mine and we progress at different speed. When we are all online we like to group, but this is often not possible due to lvl difference.

I think that if these problems were solved a lot more players would group for fun, and not only because they think its needed for characterprogress. I think that Arenanet tries to do this with GW2. I also think that these problems should be solved in any MMO.

I still group despite these issues though, because I just want to see most of the content. I don't mind creating a group myself and finding likeminded players. But I would do it a lot more often if those issues were solved.

Originally posted by Inconnux

I would be best described as a casual solo player... have one character around lvl 50 and have never joined a guild and have had only one or two groups while playing up to this level...  Join a guild? no thanks don't need the drama queen fest... If they didn't have solo stuff to do, then I wouldn't pay my subscription fee..  If I wanted to 'group' I would just fire up mIRC...  I have been in exactly one raid since playing at the launch of EQ1.

I am not asking for extra perks because I solo... just the basic content to level my character and not have to group with a bunch of whiny loot whores.  I have soloed in every MMO I have played from EQ1 onwards... any MMO that ignores people like myself won't be getting my money

now this I can only see as limited experience with guilds, I ve been in several guilds over the years....a couple of them Ive left because of drama, but those with active guild leaders there have never been a problem with drama queens, as those that  have had conflicting intrests either have accepted the direction or been shown the door, they opened.

but ofc if you cant stand other people in your life then again I have no clue why you would play a MMO, have yet to play a MMO that wasnt terrible boring game if you d only play the basic day to day game, there is very far between a singleplayer game that is less inspired than MMOs....have yet to read an opinion why MMOs is better than singleplayer games, as a solo game, without it sounding like a bad exuce, so they dont have to admit they have wasted time on a genre they dont even like

Originally posted by Hedeon

Originally posted by Inconnux

I would be best described as a casual solo player... have one character around 

.......

I am not asking for extra perks because I solo... just the basic content to level my character and not have to group with a bunch of whiny loot whores.  I have soloed in every MMO I have played from EQ1 onwards... any MMO that ignores people like myself won't be getting my money

now this I can only see as limited experience with guilds, I ve been in several guilds over the years....a couple of them Ive left because of drama, but those with active guild leaders there have never been a problem with drama queens, as those that  have had conflicting intrests either have accepted the direction or been shown the door, they opened.

 

About guilds and my experience in various mmo: in 99% they work ONLY if you have in them your REAL LIFE friends. Otherwise forget about "get a guild" solution for game with forced grouping.

Originally posted by someforumguy

I wonder if many players see grouping more of a hassle then actual fun. There are several issues that always pop up on games forums about grouping that players complain about (also from groupfocussed players).

- Need/Greed issues when rolling for loot : This one is quite obvious in how easy it is that it will cause conflict.

- Finding the players for right group composition: No one likes to wait for hours untill they finally can play the game.

- Having to repeat groupcontent to at least have a chance of obtaining gear which only drops in that groupcontent : All content becomes boring if you have to repeat it too often to your liking.

And for me, my personal issue with grouping in many MMORPG's :

- Lack of mentor/sidekick system: I always play with rl friends of mine and we progress at different speed. When we are all online we like to group, but this is often not possible due to lvl difference.

I think that if these problems were solved a lot more players would group for fun, and not only because they think its needed for characterprogress. I think that Arenanet tries to do this with GW2. I also think that these problems should be solved in any MMO.

I still group despite these issues though, because I just want to see most of the content. I don't mind creating a group myself and finding likeminded players. But I would do it a lot more often if those issues were solved.

Yes, the fact is creating a community and creating social structures for groups requires a lot more effort/input from players to put up with the demands of a group.

Hence why solo gameplay is a requirement when the best laid plans of developers does not work out or players do not work out stable groups/guilds for themselves for whatever reason.

Groups/Guilds that function NEED a strong commitment and an equally strong REASON. How many mmorpgs succeed at that? More could be asked: What is an optimum group size for people vs for content? What is an optimum range for a guild size? And server population size, density and selection...

Allowing solo is allowing a default for the game to be playable/enjoyable in the absence of the above being successfully answered. It could be argued some modern mmorpgs have allowed solo to creep into mmorpgs as de facto rather than default, but that is tangent to the main consideraton it needs be permissible/viable option for positive reasons as Jeff Strain reasons but also for shoulder the deficiency of the above.

Seems like another piece of opinion passed off as fact to me. There's nothing here to uphold the validity of the piece other than the writers opinion.

Well, guess what. We're all entitled to an opinion and ours are just as valid as yours. Whine  all you want about "the whiners" but all you've really done with this article is had a rant about people who disagree with you while offering no proof of your argument.

People on these forums have a name for that. It's called Trolling.

This is all in my opinion.

Please dont forget what the RPG means as well as the MMO.

Role Play Game.

That means you roleplay a character. as in i roleplay a Ranger. He is an adventurer and explorer. You dont often find explorers wandering around with 100 other explorers as they all want to be the first to find x.

While this is my primary goal i also get involved in neighbourly disputes which usually result in a pvp battle. I will help any town of good people that are threatened by a Dragon, usaully in the form of joining a Raid.

When i am solo do i want to find treasure easily? of course not, nothing easy is worth the effort. Would i loike to sneak into the Dragons den by using stealth and cunning and sneak a piece of treasure without even waking the Dragon? yes i would! even if the raid fighting at the gate caused a distraction while i snook in.

Point is to me you group/raiders just want things too easy and are spoiling the game for the hardcore soloers like me.

I dont really mean that. it is just simply looking at it from the other angle. We are all intellegent enogh to realise that both types have been catered for from the very beggining of MMOs and theres no reason that cannot continue.

People group together to overcome obstacles that cannot be tackled alone. They dont group together to make things tougher, but to face tougher objectives easier.

Originally posted by Yamota

Soloers are fine, I do it most of the time, but when you have a game that is designed to keep people mostly soloing SW *cough* TOR then there is something fundamentally wrong with it, in regards to MMORPGs.

Its the "I dont have time to spend hours playing an online game, but I still feel entitled to advance just as quickly as someone who does" types in particular that ruin things. Really, its like saying "I only work part time but I should get the same pay as full-time workers".

The sad thing is when you point this out to them, they dont understand just how warped a concept it is.