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News & Features Discussion  » General: Soloers Don’t Destroy MMOs

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291 posts found
  Faran_Brygo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/15/09
Posts: 18

3/09/12 2:41:58 PM#61

Soloers don't destroy MMOs. People destroy MMOs. By Soloing. Wait...

I knew I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque...

  travamars

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/10
Posts: 452

3/09/12 2:53:55 PM#62

PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.

Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

3/09/12 2:57:28 PM#63
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Sorry but that just came across as a rant devoid of actual content.


 


For a start there are next to no "all group, all the time people" so I am unsure where you are getting that one from. Some believe that in order to attempt certain things in a social driven gaming genre you should have to group up, utilize alliances with other players. Not sure how that is all group, all the time but there you go.


 


Being able to solo in an mmorpg is great. Being able to solo everything to the detriment of community features in a game is far from great.


 


We don't want everything for free:


Great, the issue some have is when it becomes clear that some solo players do in fact want to be able to do everything solo. You should be able to attempt to do anything you want in a game on your tod. But making everything viable for a solo player, really? "Oh God I don't want a player driven economy, that means I have to rely on other crafters!!". "You mean a guild of players has an advantage in getting territory to me as a solo player, zomg that sucks!!!".


 


Casual players:


Your write up doesn't seem to tie in well with the solo player part but lets look at it anyway. Not everyone has 6 hours to play a game. True that. But then there are many, many, many gaming genres that provide instant access fun tailored to solo players. There are many games which tailor to instant fun, social games. Creating mmos that suit this audience does two things; first of all it creates what are in effect, piss poor versions of games that are already out. Secondly it means that all the investment money in the mmorpg genre is thrown at the casual crowd. That's fair enough, but then even the most blinkered person should see that kind of has a negative impact upon the longer term, sandbox style, social meta game based mmorpgs.


 


We Belong/We are not socially inept/We like grouping:


 


Er okay? Again the issue most have is the incessant demand to be able to do everything solo. Amazingly enough you could happily do your own thing in older mmos. It is the need to be able to have the uber gear and wtfpwn without any help from other people which is what some find somewhat strange in an mmo.


 


Breaking the game:


 


In an ideal world plenty of money would be thrown at complex, sandbox games and plenty of money would be thrown at catering to the ever increasing, pick up and play, go go go casual crowd. This isn't an ideal world and 99% of the money goes to the biggest cash cow. The market is homogenised due to the way the business works.


 


No one has an issue with solo players in mmos. No one wants grouping all the time. No one thinks solo players "don't belong". Some have an issue with the drive to make everything soloable to the detriment of social mechanics and complexity. Some have an issue with making everything about immediacy. Some see that the market is becoming more and more solo/casual. Whilst understandable, it's not exactly what everyone wants given there are already other gaming genres out there which already do a better job at catering to that crowd.


 

 

not all solo players think they should get everything for free, or by easy solo play.

example. I play solo very much in MMO's. it can be exciting (especially with open pvp) but my favorite part of MMO's is small group content, like a dungen in WoW or EQ2. i don't really like raids, because they seem idiotic in design. sorry. this is just how i have always felt. i play to immerse myself in a fantasy world, and being in a group with 10-25-40 people, where everyone stands on top of each other and hits ONE thing for 15 minute intervals is boring and NOT much fun.

i have rarely, if ever,  read a fantasy story or even watched a movie where that many 'EPIC HEROS' are all together in one spot, all hitting the same guy at one time. it is lame.... i get way more immersed in small group content because it actually reflects the fantasy stories i grew up loving.

 

ohh. another reason i love solo play. i have a slim chance of being in 'vent' and having to hear these people talk. i want to know players as their avatars. i want players to know me by my avatar. i don't want to hear your voice. i don't want to hear your ill-attempted racist humor. i don't want to hear about your REAL LIFE, and i don't want to talk about mine. i want to live (play) in a fantasy world and immerse myself. for me, large group combat contradicts that (not talking about in PvP. i love huge pvp battles). 

 

i could go on forever, but for now i will close with- the term solo-player is a joke to be honest. if you are playing an MMO, you are never really solo, and as long as you contribute to the game world in some small way, you are a part of the community.

PS- For a close, there are next to no 'all solo all the time people' so i am unsure where you are getting that from.

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

3/09/12 3:02:46 PM#64


Originally posted by travamars
PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.
Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.

Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?

PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.

Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  Acmegamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/10
Posts: 337

3/09/12 3:04:52 PM#65
Originally posted by PukeBucket

 


Originally posted by travamars
PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.
Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.


 

Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?

PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.

Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?

 

 Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.

 

  booskA

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 80

3/09/12 3:07:32 PM#66

Soloers don't destroy MMOs, but MMOs that cater to and create avenues for solo game play do. The solo game play is just not engaged in by those who wouldn't play the game otherwise, it is engaged in by nearly everyone that plays, since it is the simplest path. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all this is - an opinion. I think practically everyone who looks at the issue from a more detatched, less selfish perspective would state the opposite. Catering to soloers destroys MMOs.


  Puremallace

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 1929

3/09/12 3:10:49 PM#67

Great article! [mod edit]


  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

3/09/12 3:18:44 PM#68

Worlds where no one says a single word , that is what is common in MMO's today..If you do not have to say ANYTHING then NOTHING will be said...


No Innovation in MMO's today can or will change that, atleast nothing that has been inplemented in the new batch of games lately..It doesn't matter if you reward grouping with higher XP or social points or whatever.. Most players will still just do the thing that requires them to do as little as possible to reach their goals.


Sure in games like Rift , you are basically auto joined in groups all the time, but these are not groups, they show up at the side of your UI for a while then leave when their objective is done..Basically still soloing


Forcing something sounds very harch, but that is what games has done in ALL it's existance, it's called within the rules of gameplay..In the beginning of MMORPG*s the rules for gameplay was that you needed help to make most goals come true, this alone "forced" players to communicate ...But NEVER did i hear discussions about this back then, people played and adapted and if they didnt have alot of time, well then It had to take the time , maybe it should take them a few years. Now I like to say..Todays batch of games forces you to SOLO instead


The trick is to have a game that still is interessting for all characthers without changing the rules, then players WILL do anything that is required from them, they will group if that is required, but ONLY if the gameplay is GREAT ..


BAck then, there was little choice in games, the gameplay was tedious but still GREAT for a selected few, but for most it was just odd. or rather most had not even herd of EverQuest or UO or AC


Now we have lots of MMO's, but almost every single rule has been changed or altered a bit, That means it's not even the same genre anymore..


I'd say ...Give this genre a NEW name, so the players that longs for a real MMORPG can stop looking in all the wrong places.


I like to think that ...All players want challenge in their games, and if the gameplay is GREAT they WILL overcome obstacles such as finding or beiing in a group ..


HArdcore singleplayer games released in 2011 , Demon Souls etc proves this theory, If Bethsoft would have made Skyrim like Demon Souls not many would have liked it, because the GAMEPLAY is not that great from the beginning.


Sure It captures you in the beginning , It has a breathtaking world and so on but that feeling doesn't last that long for most of us, after that..It has to have GREAT gameplay, and well..The gameplay in Skyrim is not that great after you spent your first 20-40 hours in that game, you just want to hurry to the end..


Ohh yes..I know that there is players in that game with 200-400 Hours etc, but those players already belongs in the chategorie that would love a Skyrim with better harder gameplay even more...


This is just a theory, my theory, I can be all wrong ofcourse :)


 


 


  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

3/09/12 3:26:16 PM#69
Originally posted by toddze

I dont know how you can write that article with a straight face. 

The MMO genre has degraded to an online rpg's with multiplayer options. They are played exactly like you would play a single player RPG. (for this argument I am not refering to single player vs multiplaer when i say single player rpg) What do you do when you buy a new single player RPG ? you play it for a few month then your looking for the next game. That type of play is cancerous for an MMORPG. But then again devs are not stupid so their development of the games are cheepened and streamlined, for that type of play.

I mostly blame Single player RPG games for the desruction of MMO's. 10-15 years ago I thought some would have evolved to online rpg's to fill the market. But not the de-evolution of MMO's.

IMO MMO's are about choices/option. Kind of like waking up out of bed on a nice saturday morning, and saying what am I going to do today, where am I going today. Options are gone in MMO's these days, your on a nice little rollercoaster everything is planned and laid out in a nice little path end game is nice and structured raid t1, then t2 etc etc etc.

Now onto solo'ers. They destroy the community. which was a major feature of an MMO. I remember playing FFXI and in XP groups having to stay and play extra maybe even for hours while my replacement got there to fill my spot, or while you look for a replacement. You didnt just want to say ok im done and bail on the group. You sure as hell didnt want to you name being cast in a negative light. As a playeer in XI you knew who the self centered people were. Word got around. Those people had harder times getting groups, and rightfully so. 

Now in MMO's if you group for whatever reason. once people get theirs (whatever it is) they just drop group and run along. its sad. I could write a small novel on this subject but ill leave it alone, i just want to quote something from the article and reply to it. really quickly.

"My car is a multi-passenger vehicle, but that doesn’t mean I can’t drive it unless I have someone else in there with me"

I like the analogy but this is the problem with MMORPG's everything is scaled down now. In auto terms MMORPG's are more like a bus, sure you can drive a bus around by yourself but its awfull damn stupid.

 i don't know how you can say 'SPG's ruined MMORPG". if anything, MMO's ruined SPG's. before MMO's, single player games were actually fun. now, all the majority of sword/magic games are MMO's, and i look at them 1st becuase they are fantasy games, and second because they are MMO's. i was really sad years ago,when  every cool looking game came with a sub-fee..... but yes, i eventually gave in, and only because i love my Night Elves.

today, many great ideas, and hypothetically great SPGs are instead ruined so that they may become MMORPG's and rip off their customers with sub fees. many SPGs are RUINED because in this age, everything HAS to come with an 'online mode' and more attention is put into making it online, than actually making it a great game. this said. i LOVE playing online games. but my love for it does not change what 'online play' did to ruin VIDEO GAMES as a whole.

 

i'm wondering. when you got to -

"Now onto soloers'-

you do realize, that you went on a tangent, that has nothing to do with soloers, unless you are just assuming every soloer is a me me me, fast fast fast, now now now type. that whole ponint out of the 'novel you could write' is more about self-centered people than soloers. i find it close-minded and sad that you so easily generalize people in that way.

also, just to pick on you, it is hilarious that you said you could 'write' a whole novel about something, yet decided your point was best said by 'linking' something someone else said. remind me to never buy your books.

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6507

"I fight so you don't have to."

3/09/12 3:27:31 PM#70

Soloers are fine, I do it most of the time, but when you have a game that is designed to keep people mostly soloing SW *cough* TOR then there is something fundamentally wrong with it, in regards to MMORPGs.


  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/09/12 3:33:44 PM#71

Isabelle Parsley, for speaking against the will of the holy Order of the Full Loot Forced Grouping PVP Sandbox, we have deemed you our mortal enemy.  Our holy hivemind is most displeased with your blasphemous words.

 

Specially trained archer/mage hybrid assassins will be sent to your residence as soon as possible.

 

Please wait 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.

 

 

  Telil

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 270

3/09/12 3:38:20 PM#72
Originally posted by Zairu
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Sorry but that just came across as a rant devoid of actual content.


 


For a start there are next to no "all group, all the time people" so I am unsure where you are getting that one from. Some believe that in order to attempt certain things in a social driven gaming genre you should have to group up, utilize alliances with other players. Not sure how that is all group, all the time but there you go.


 


Being able to solo in an mmorpg is great. Being able to solo everything to the detriment of community features in a game is far from great.


 


We don't want everything for free:


Great, the issue some have is when it becomes clear that some solo players do in fact want to be able to do everything solo. You should be able to attempt to do anything you want in a game on your tod. But making everything viable for a solo player, really? "Oh God I don't want a player driven economy, that means I have to rely on other crafters!!". "You mean a guild of players has an advantage in getting territory to me as a solo player, zomg that sucks!!!".


 


Casual players:


Your write up doesn't seem to tie in well with the solo player part but lets look at it anyway. Not everyone has 6 hours to play a game. True that. But then there are many, many, many gaming genres that provide instant access fun tailored to solo players. There are many games which tailor to instant fun, social games. Creating mmos that suit this audience does two things; first of all it creates what are in effect, piss poor versions of games that are already out. Secondly it means that all the investment money in the mmorpg genre is thrown at the casual crowd. That's fair enough, but then even the most blinkered person should see that kind of has a negative impact upon the longer term, sandbox style, social meta game based mmorpgs.


 


We Belong/We are not socially inept/We like grouping:


 


Er okay? Again the issue most have is the incessant demand to be able to do everything solo. Amazingly enough you could happily do your own thing in older mmos. It is the need to be able to have the uber gear and wtfpwn without any help from other people which is what some find somewhat strange in an mmo.


 


Breaking the game:


 


In an ideal world plenty of money would be thrown at complex, sandbox games and plenty of money would be thrown at catering to the ever increasing, pick up and play, go go go casual crowd. This isn't an ideal world and 99% of the money goes to the biggest cash cow. The market is homogenised due to the way the business works.


 


No one has an issue with solo players in mmos. No one wants grouping all the time. No one thinks solo players "don't belong". Some have an issue with the drive to make everything soloable to the detriment of social mechanics and complexity. Some have an issue with making everything about immediacy. Some see that the market is becoming more and more solo/casual. Whilst understandable, it's not exactly what everyone wants given there are already other gaming genres out there which already do a better job at catering to that crowd.


 

 

not all solo players think they should get everything for free, or by easy solo play.

example. I play solo very much in MMO's. it can be exciting (especially with open pvp) but my favorite part of MMO's is small group content, like a dungen in WoW or EQ2. i don't really like raids, because they seem idiotic in design. sorry. this is just how i have always felt. i play to immerse myself in a fantasy world, and being in a group with 10-25-40 people, where everyone stands on top of each other and hits ONE thing for 15 minute intervals is boring and NOT much fun.

i have rarely, if ever,  read a fantasy story or even watched a movie where that many 'EPIC HEROS' are all together in one spot, all hitting the same guy at one time. it is lame.... i get way more immersed in small group content because it actually reflects the fantasy stories i grew up loving.

 

ohh. another reason i love solo play. i have a slim chance of being in 'vent' and having to hear these people talk. i want to know players as their avatars. i want players to know me by my avatar. i don't want to hear your voice. i don't want to hear your ill-attempted racist humor. i don't want to hear about your REAL LIFE, and i don't want to talk about mine. i want to live (play) in a fantasy world and immerse myself. for me, large group combat contradicts that (not talking about in PvP. i love huge pvp battles). 

 

i could go on forever, but for now i will close with- the term solo-player is a joke to be honest. if you are playing an MMO, you are never really solo, and as long as you contribute to the game world in some small way, you are a part of the community.

PS- For a close, there are next to no 'all solo all the time people' so i am unsure where you are getting that from.

you sir sound like a mmorpg player. i really didnt think they stil existed but am happy to hear they do.

nice post.

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

3/09/12 3:42:27 PM#73
Originally posted by booskA

Soloers don't destroy MMOs, but MMOs that cater to and create avenues for solo game play do. The solo game play is just not engaged in by those who wouldn't play the game otherwise, it is engaged in by nearly everyone that plays, since it is the simplest path. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all this is - an opinion. I think practically everyone who looks at the issue from a more detatched, less selfish perspective would state the opposite. Catering to soloers destroys MMOs.

 

i do not think i have EVER heard anyone say-

'catering to solo players does not ruin MMO's'

and just to clear that up....

catering to any vocal minority ruins mmos.

Dev make easier content because it is cheaper to make, and make it soloable because the 'hardcore raid crowd' hates leveling their characters, or stayin g on one raid for very long. oh wait! that only happens some of the time i bet, just like EVERY other point made in this thread.

terms like solo/hardcore/casual are funny, or at least how they are over-used and often misused on this site. have a great day.

  Acmegamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/10
Posts: 337

3/09/12 3:42:42 PM#74
Originally posted by Khaeros

Isabelle Parsley, for speaking against the will of the holy Order of the Full Loot Forced Grouping PVP Sandbox, we have deemed you our mortal enemy.  Our holy hivemind is most displeased with your blasphemous words.

 

Specially trained archer/mage hybrid assassins will be sent to your residence as soon as possible.

 

Please wait 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.

 

 

 

 LOL!   +1

  LoboMau

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 404

3/09/12 3:46:42 PM#75

Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

3/09/12 3:48:35 PM#76


Originally posted by AcmeGamer


Originally posted by PukeBucket
 



Originally posted by travamars
PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.
Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.



 
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?
PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.
Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?


 
 Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.
 

All of that just sounded like euphemisms about mutual masturbation.

That again proves that solo activities are inferior.

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  Telil

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 270

3/09/12 3:49:48 PM#77

I am a solo player and want a CHANCE of experiencing everything in the game.

I want a CHANCE to go for every piece of equipment in the game.

If getting my epic sword takes me a month of hard graft soloing then great where do i start!

Of course i could do it the easy way and join a raid to complete my epic quest and recieve it automatically, but thats no fun for me.......wait! oh ye soloing is the easy way and grouping/raiding is the hard core way....riiggghhhtttt!. back in games like eq when you had a 1 in 50 chance of getting the highest roll for that epic piece...yes that was the hard and ONLY way. but these days you just gotta join a guild...you dont even have to speak to anyone, just join and turn up to a raid, sit back and press a fgew buttons to make it look like your not AFK and once the mob is dead you get your reward. hardcore.

Have i upset anyone?

  Telil

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 270

3/09/12 3:51:14 PM#78
Originally posted by LoboMau

Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?

trying to get a response from you and the rest of us?

So far looks like she is succesful, maybe they should give her a rise lol.

 

[Mod Edit]

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

3/09/12 3:52:04 PM#79


Originally posted by Telil
I am a solo player and want a CHANCE of experiencing everything in the game.
I want a CHANCE to go for every piece of equipment in the game.
If getting my epic sword takes me a month of hard graft soloing then great where do i start!
Of course i could do it the easy way and join a raid to complete my epic quest and recieve it automatically, but thats no fun for me.......wait! oh ye soloing is the easy way and grouping/raiding is the hard core way....riiggghhhtttt!. back in games like eq when you had a 1 in 50 chance of getting the highest roll for that epic piece...yes that was the hard and ONLY way. but these days you just gotta join a guild...you dont even have to speak to anyone, just join and turn up to a raid, sit back and press a fgew buttons to make it look like your not AFK and once the mob is dead you get your reward. hardcore.
Have i upset anyone?

Upset everyone by pointing out that raiding for gear sucks as much as soloing?

No. Sorry.

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7189

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/09/12 4:00:53 PM#80
Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Vesavius

 
Terrible article that accuses the readers that see things differently of 'bitching', as a cheap way of dismissing their perspective, when the whole thing was one long 'bitch'.

MMORPG.com used to be better then this kind of official troll piece.

Really?  It couldn't possibly be in response to all of the posts and topics over the years by groupies spewing their hatred toward us soloers.  Blaming us for everything that is wrong with the genre?  I've seen an awful lot of bitching and whining by group lovers to justify this response and then some.

 

The 'hatred' you dsecribe may well have been due to the fact that soloers have whined these games into a super casual anti-social soulless selfish shells of what they once were.

Solo focused play isn't the only problem with how MMOs have evolved but it's a big one.

And, look, just because certain people have whined about it in the past in no way validates a MMORPG writer accusing those that disagree with her of just 'bitching'. Thats just really cheap and does absolutely nothing to move the debate on in a constructive way.

I would expect better from an 'official' piece.

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