Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Why?  Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun. As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  "

There are many many many games, old, new, newschool, oldschool, sandbox, thempark that all let us play without something that prevents us from playing. 

I repeat waiting to be able to play the game defeats the purpose of entertainment. 

edit - it wasn't a valid point at all, in fact I don't think there was any point except to try and insult "modern games".

This is why in EQ I played monk, druid, and bard mostly - they allowed me to play the game in a way so I didn't have to wait to play.  CR were no problem with them, very very little downtime, easy to group with.  Those classes reduced a lot of needless tedium.

edit 2 - @cuathon, I generally think you are pretty intelligent, so why do you always feel the need to insult other people, swear at other people, and generally act like your raging simply because someone disagrees with you.  These are not the hallmarks of an intelligent and/or rationale person.  You know that It is possible to disagree with someone's point of view and not attack the person right?

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Why?  Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun. As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  "

There are many many many games, old, new, newschool, oldschool, sandbox, thempark that all let us play without something that prevents us from playing. 

I repeat waiting to be able to play the game defeats the purpose of entertainment. 

edit - it wasn't a valid point at all, in fact I don't think there was any point except to try and insult "modern games".

This is why in EQ I played monk, druid, and bard mostly - they allowed me to play the game in a way so I didn't have to wait to play.  CR were no problem with them, very very little downtime, easy to group with.  Those classes reduced a lot of needless tedium.

edit 2 - @cuathon, I generally think you are pretty intelligent, so why do you always feel the need to insult other people, swear at other people, and generally act like your raging simply because someone disagrees with you.  These are not the hallmarks of an intelligent and/or rationale person.  You know that It is possible to disagree with someone's point of view and not attack the person right?

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Why?  Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun. As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  "

There are many many many games, old, new, newschool, oldschool, sandbox, thempark that all let us play without something that prevents us from playing. 

I repeat waiting to be able to play the game defeats the purpose of entertainment. 

edit - it wasn't a valid point at all, in fact I don't think there was any point except to try and insult "modern games".

This is why in EQ I played monk, druid, and bard mostly - they allowed me to play the game in a way so I didn't have to wait to play.  CR were no problem with them, very very little downtime, easy to group with.  Those classes reduced a lot of needless tedium.

edit 2 - @cuathon, I generally think you are pretty intelligent, so why do you always feel the need to insult other people, swear at other people, and generally act like your raging simply because someone disagrees with you.  These are not the hallmarks of an intelligent and/or rationale person.  You know that It is possible to disagree with someone's point of view and not attack the person right?

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

 

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

 

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

 

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to.

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

So your argument is that you cannot be civil because someone is not making a game for you, or giving you want you want - that is the height of childishness

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

I think Narius does come on strong, is fairly rigid in his views and probably should not post on many threads but he very rarely insults other gamers and never outright swears or attacks an individual.  Nor do I in fact I very very rarely ever tell anyone they are wrong unless it is something that can be objectively proved, and am very carefull to state that it is my opinion on many things.  So no.

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Your right, emotion is not just related to intellect, unless you are talking about emotional intelligence which many studies have shown is a greater indicator of success than IQ.  Good thing I didn't just say intellect, I said rationale as well.  Only an immature and irrational person thinks that just because someone disagrees with them that they are attacking them.  That is actually one hallmark of teenages, possibly due to undeveloped frontal lobes.  You are not a teenager, are intelligent and articulate.  Why then do you "fly off the handle so many times"

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

Again you are normally you are right.  However regardless of your personal level of power, how you choose to act makes a bigger difference in how you are viewed.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

I am not pepetuating any myths.  Please feel free to point out the myth. 

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

Once again I did not mention academia.  Academia is seperate from intelligence and rationality.  That was a red herring.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

This speak volumes.  That you cannot reasonably predict how you would react if someone disagrees with you in a written forum is silly.  If you are in a bad mood you still choose how you act.

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

And getting angry is fine, however your inabiltiy to express yourself without resorting to personal attacks is another matter.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to. 

Which is why are are doing what you can do, making your opinion known, trying to gather support and more importantly making your own game.  great.

None of that has anything to do with the constant attacking , swearing and belitting of other players.

I miss the "[keyword]" way of getting quests.  I would actually read the short speech the NPC would give in my chat window and interact with them by typing out a response and possibly get more dialog.  It felt deeper than clicking past a sheet of quest text.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

So your argument is that you cannot be civil because someone is not making a game for you, or giving you want you want - that is the height of childishness

Dodging the argument.

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

I think Narius does come on strong, is fairly rigid in his views and probably should not post on many threads but he very rarely insults other gamers and never outright swears or attacks an individual.  Nor do I in fact I very very rarely ever tell anyone they are wrong unless it is something that can be objectively proved, and am very carefull to state that it is my opinion on many things.  So no.

Again you didn't address my point at all.

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Your right, emotion is not just related to intellect, unless you are talking about emotional intelligence which many studies have shown is a greater indicator of success than IQ.  Good thing I didn't just say intellect, I said rationale as well.  Only an immature and irrational person thinks that just because someone disagrees with them that they are attacking them.  That is actually one hallmark of teenages, possibly due to undeveloped frontal lobes.  You are not a teenager, are intelligent and articulate.  Why then do you "fly off the handle so many times"

You still said intellect. Whether you said rational also is irrelevant.

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

Again you are normally you are right.  However regardless of your personal level of power, how you choose to act makes a bigger difference in how you are viewed.

You fail to understand what tone trolling is.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

I am not pepetuating any myths.  Please feel free to point out the myth. 

You said intelligent people are calm and civil. That is a myth. Further that rational people are civil is also a myth. Rational people are civil when it benefits them because rational means making the choice that most benefits you. So you are in fact perpetuating 2 myths.

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

Once again I did not mention academia.  Academia is seperate from intelligence and rationality.  That was a red herring.

You are trying to separate yourself from the greater context of society. You do not exist in a vacuum. The idea that rationality and intellect are related to civility and calmness is directly based on the structures of academia. This perception may or may not be the proximate cause of your incorrect belief but it certainly exists on the causal chain.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

This speak volumes.  That you cannot reasonably predict how you would react if someone disagrees with you in a written forum is silly.  If you are in a bad mood you still choose how you act.

This is not true. Studies have shown that people's reactions vary wildly to the exact same stimulus based on their mood. Again you are perpetuating a myth about something you don't understand.

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

And getting angry is fine, however your inabiltiy to express yourself without resorting to personal attacks is another matter.

I am fully capable of expressing myself without personal attacks. I wasn't even attacking you in the original quote in any case.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to. 

Which is why are are doing what you can do, making your opinion known, trying to gather support and more importantly making your own game.  great.

None of that has anything to do with the constant attacking , swearing and belitting of other players.

Swearing is not the same for me as you. I understand how you may misintepret me, but my swearing does not indicate any state of anger or rage. The frequency of profanity in my speech does not vary between my calm and aroused state.

Being angry that something you once enjoyed is now absent IS NOT a behavior primarily associated with teenagers. Another pop culture myth you insist on propagating. People consistently exhibit their behavior throughout their lifespan regardless of age.

It is merely that the things that primarily upset adults are arbitrarily determined by society as being something more worth being upset over because adults are in control of society and get to decide what the norms of behavior are.

Further it is easy for people to judge others when nothing they consider significant to them has been taken away.

You don't know how you will react to a situation until you are in it. Countless studies have demonstrated that people consistently mispredict what their response would be to a situation they haven't experienced yet.

Originally posted by Cuathon

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

I do. It does not matter what the name is .. but coop lobby based games are great. Fun, focus combat, no dead-time waiting, chatting ... .

My next main game, hence, will most probably be Diablo 3. I hope there are more games like that.

Originally posted by Cuathon

snip

See now this is a good discussion, and while I disagree with most of your points and feel that many of the thing you are stating are red herring arguments and do not address any of my points, it is still a rationale discussion, with no attacking or belittling going on.  This is what moves debates forward.

edit - I do think you are pretty intelligent and you definately know far more about game development and tech than I ever will.  I also think your game does sound interesting and I do believe that it will be indie devs that move the genre forward (that seems to be the case in many fields actually). 

.. was going to say more but I'll leave it at that.

i miss the thrill of knowing that you could die in any zone at anytime if you dont have your wits about you.

Having to travel to the better dungeons. it felt like an adventure book, gathering your group together and making sure you had enough supplies then setting off.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Well I believe it is up for the individual to decide what they want to do, and not be insulted for it.

I personally feel your "MMO to end all MMOs" is simply a pipedream, but who am I to tell ya to quit spamming the forums about it? It is what you want to do with your time, and there is no reason to be deragatory towards you for it.

Showing folks the same consideration would be a novel idea eh?

handholding /off

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Well I believe it is up for the individual to decide what they want to do, and not be insulted for it.

 

I personally feel your "MMO to end all MMOs" is simply a pipedream, but who am I to tell ya to quit spamming the forums about it? It is what you want to do with your time, and there is no reason to be deragatory towards you for it.

 

Showing folks the same consideration would be a novel idea eh?

I didn't insult him. I simply indicated a genre of games that may be more to his taste. There is no reason to intepret that post as an insult.

I am not sure you understand what the word spams means btw.

Feign death pulling, trains, death penalty and open dungeons. Basically I miss Everquests style but not its craptastic graphics.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Well I believe it is up for the individual to decide what they want to do, and not be insulted for it.

 

I personally feel your "MMO to end all MMOs" is simply a pipedream, but who am I to tell ya to quit spamming the forums about it? It is what you want to do with your time, and there is no reason to be deragatory towards you for it.

 

Showing folks the same consideration would be a novel idea eh?

I didn't insult him. I simply indicated a genre of games that may be more to his taste. There is no reason to intepret that post as an insult.

I am not sure you understand what the word spams means btw.

Actually you did insult him. The context is very clear.

As far as your game....you bring it up on a consistent basis. Thus the equating it to spam. Like I indicated though....it is something you are passionate about, and so I wont mock you over it. Just like you could of done with your reply to the person.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Well I believe it is up for the individual to decide what they want to do, and not be insulted for it.

 

I personally feel your "MMO to end all MMOs" is simply a pipedream, but who am I to tell ya to quit spamming the forums about it? It is what you want to do with your time, and there is no reason to be deragatory towards you for it.

 

Showing folks the same consideration would be a novel idea eh?

I didn't insult him. I simply indicated a genre of games that may be more to his taste. There is no reason to intepret that post as an insult.

I am not sure you understand what the word spams means btw.

Actually you did insult him. The context is very clear.

 

As far as your game....you bring it up on a consistent basis. Thus the equating it to spam. Like I indicated though....it is something you are passionate about, and so I wont mock you over it. Just like you could of done with your reply to the person.

The imaginary context may be clear to you. That doesn't make it real context.

If someone said they didn't like to control more than one unit and I said maybe they shouldn't be playing tbs or rts games, would that be an insult? Didn't think so.

Also:

Spam is flooding the Internet with many copies of the same message, in an attempt to force the message on people who would not otherwise choose to receive it.

It would be spam if I posted identical posts constantly across several different forums. You have at most 1 or 2 of my threads on the first few pages at any one time, all of them having context outside of just my game. They contain discussions of general sandbox concepts.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by nilden

Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing.

(I don't miss anything about pre-WOW MMORPGs.  They were the dullest games I'd ever played, and after playing them a couple weeks I would quickly return to whatever non-MMORPG I was playing at the time -- games which didn't try to hide the fun behind excessive timesinks and tedium.)

This is extremist drivel.

Label everything pre-WOW as dull.

There were many games with exciting and fun things to do. UO, EQ, DAOC just to name a few. Just look at all the things people miss from older games, this thread is full of them.

His point was that a great many people did not find those games fun they found them dull.

 

Actually most people who play and still play MMO's never tried them. Their first MMO was WoW.

Your probably right, which is why I didn't say most people.

I said many people.  Many many people, millions actually tried everquest, UO, Daoc, Swg....

Many many people did not find those games fun.

Well it wasnt that some of us didnt find EQ fun....we just have no desire to go back to it, or something similar.

 

When you have spent all night waiting to get your bod back from a failed Hate PU raid, or 20 hrs waiting to get in on a Fabled mob, you start to realize just how demanding your video game "hobby" is.

 

I have all the time in the world due to disability, yet there is no way I would ever get involved with a game like Everquest again.

I tend to agree.  I play games for entertainment only, so I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun.  As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  And CR or running for an hour, or waiting a day to be able to have fun, for me at least, wasn't fun.  It was a waste of my time. 

Yes I know entertainment is a waste of time, however there is precious little free time as it is, I don't want to waste my entertainment time waiting to be entertained - that would make the activity pointless.

Then I suppose you had better stick to playing coop lobby based games. Or as some people insist on calling them:

"Modern MMOs".

Why?  Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't care if something takes a little or a long time as long as it's fun. As soon as I'm waiting to have fun, it's time to leave the game.  "

There are many many many games, old, new, newschool, oldschool, sandbox, thempark that all let us play without something that prevents us from playing. 

I repeat waiting to be able to play the game defeats the purpose of entertainment. 

edit - it wasn't a valid point at all, in fact I don't think there was any point except to try and insult "modern games".

This is why in EQ I played monk, druid, and bard mostly - they allowed me to play the game in a way so I didn't have to wait to play.  CR were no problem with them, very very little downtime, easy to group with.  Those classes reduced a lot of needless tedium.

edit 2 - @cuathon, I generally think you are pretty intelligent, so why do you always feel the need to insult other people, swear at other people, and generally act like your raging simply because someone disagrees with you.  These are not the hallmarks of an intelligent and/or rationale person.  You know that It is possible to disagree with someone's point of view and not attack the person right?

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

 

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

 

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

 

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to.

Its very simple. Its easy for you to make constant tone trolling arguments, aka, why can't you be civil, when you are the one who is on the winning side. All the games coming out are themeparker anti virtual world anti persistance games. Why shouldn't you be happy when you are getting everything you want?

So your argument is that you cannot be civil because someone is not making a game for you, or giving you want you want - that is the height of childishness

I never see you ask Narius why he comes in all of my threads or other sandbox threads to stir up drama. What because he is civil? Why shouldn't he be civil, he has everything he wants in games, he can do whatever he wants because nothing is at stake for him.

And the same for you. It should be noted that tone trolls are 95% likely to be on the side where everything is going their way.

I think Narius does come on strong, is fairly rigid in his views and probably should not post on many threads but he very rarely insults other gamers and never outright swears or attacks an individual.  Nor do I in fact I very very rarely ever tell anyone they are wrong unless it is something that can be objectively proved, and am very carefull to state that it is my opinion on many things.  So no.

In any case you are wrong. Emotion is entirely irrelevant to intellect. The smartest person I know has an IQ of 205 and he is angry and depressed all the time. In fact raw intelligence correlates pretty consistently with depression and anger and anxiety. Not every smart person is angry or depressed, but to say that perfect calm and civility is the hallmark of rationality is just straight up wrong.

Your right, emotion is not just related to intellect, unless you are talking about emotional intelligence which many studies have shown is a greater indicator of success than IQ.  Good thing I didn't just say intellect, I said rationale as well.  Only an immature and irrational person thinks that just because someone disagrees with them that they are attacking them.  That is actually one hallmark of teenages, possibly due to undeveloped frontal lobes.  You are not a teenager, are intelligent and articulate.  Why then do you "fly off the handle so many times"

Calm, civil and controlled are the hallmarks of POWER. People secure in their position and desires are calm and civil.

Again you are normally you are right.  However regardless of your personal level of power, how you choose to act makes a bigger difference in how you are viewed.

I am trying to be civil here but every time someone perpetuates the myth that you are perpetuating it makes me feel like life is pointless because I a moving against an unstoppable tide.

I am not pepetuating any myths.  Please feel free to point out the myth. 

Academia is composed of those intellectuals in positions of power and privilege. Academia is the most common cited group for tone trolls because they can say, look how these brilliant men are calm and in control. But that is a product of their privilege and not their intellect.

Once again I did not mention academia.  Academia is seperate from intelligence and rationality.  That was a red herring.

I will explain this once in as calm a manner as possible. After this if you continue to propagate this ridiculous idea I will either force myself not to respond if I am in a more chilled mood or if I am in a bad mood I will react in a manner I cannot predict which may be to ignore you or to tear your head off, I couldn't say which until it happens.

This speak volumes.  That you cannot reasonably predict how you would react if someone disagrees with you in a written forum is silly.  If you are in a bad mood you still choose how you act.

Now that we have established that emotion is not relevant to intellect the reason I get angry is because virtual worlds are being crushed under neath the weight of not an inferior but a radically different kind of gamer flooding the MMO genre after WoW.

And getting angry is fine, however your inabiltiy to express yourself without resorting to personal attacks is another matter.

Before if a company saw a market where they could make a few tens of millions, such as the market for EQ or UO or EvE or SWG they would make a game. Now we have a market full of players that hop from game to game, even WoW has a limited hold on their interest.

It is financially more viable to make a themepark even if it has only a 10% retention rate than it is to make a virtual world. Eve has maybe 300k subscribers over, what is it, 8 years?

Their total gross product over 8 years is something like 432million dollars. But if you make one themepark that has 2million boxes sold at 60$ and then 2 years of an average of 1mil subs in 2 years of run time your game has made 384million dollars of gross profit. Which is pretty much as good as EvE in 4x as long.

And your costs are likely lower for various reasons. And we aren't even talking about cash shops and mounts and crap.

And because fewer games are made with my make or break features we don't have a lot of options of games with alternate ancillary features, and we have to play in space. Which is fine, but it would be nice to have the option not to. 

Which is why are are doing what you can do, making your opinion known, trying to gather support and more importantly making your own game.  great.

None of that has anything to do with the constant attacking , swearing and belitting of other players.

Agreed. +1

I'm old school and basicly I miss an open world with open non instanced dugneons where we either /rolled on bosses or sorted out a round robin system all on a pvp full loot world without pvp'ing with each other. We made our own loot rules and there was no levels just an open skill system where any monster even the starting monsters could pose as a threat to you and gear was irrelevant. Like for example we got the chess board out and played chess with each other and who ever won that game got the spawns for 12 hours and any randoms which came in knew to respect. Most of all the community and the unwritten laws which gets ignored in this generation of gaming.

I miss crafting that requires research and understanding to get the most out of, but is simple enough to do for anyone who has the werewithal to run around and search for resources for ten or fifteen minutes.  Accessible for most but with deep customization options and even more available for those who decide to do the research?  Way cool.

I also miss economies that work.  I like EVE Online a lot, and their efforts to have a working economy have been reasonably successful, but I'd like to see it in a context that feels more connected.  EVE's combat and the combat in a game like TOR are worlds apart, and I like to feel like I'm fighting rather than fiddling with knobs and dials while the ship does my fighting for me.  A step further would be Vindictus, but that's a lot to ask.

It seems like all modern crafting systems are dumb-kid math.

I'd like a crafting and economy system that are interesting.  EVE's is great but their moment-to-moment crafting gameplay is a bit unsatisfying for me; no real differences in terms of materials used, no way to use research to make a better Thrasher.  A Thrasher is always just a Thrasher.  I have no love for that.

I miss player housing in the open world.