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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I miss the BEGINNING of games being a challenge....

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68 posts found
  Jimmydean

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

3/08/12 10:38:14 PM#21
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Alasti

I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

 

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

 

See... here's the thing about that. Levels 1, 2, and 3 in EQ1? There was only RNG and nothing else. What you call challenge was nothing more than die rolls that you were somewhat likely to lose. As a level 1 Shadowknight, there was nothing you could do to influence the outcome of a combat. Just choose an enemy, turn on autoattack, and wait to win or die. It wasn't a challenge in the sense that it was a test of skill, because a skilled player had no way to do better in combat than an unskilled player.

Additionally, the beginning of a good game should teach the player about the game. EQ did a really poor job of this. Modern MMOs go waaaay overboard with handholding for the entire beginning, but EQ was overboard in the opposite direction. Here, go watch this video: Sequelitis - Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X by Egoraptor (warning: strong language). Pay special attention to the part about Conveyance. Even if getting to level 5 was an accomplishment, a level 5 EQ player knows much less about how to play the game than someone who plays a modern MMO for the same amount of time. The game did very little to teach you about itself.

You're good at something a lot of us fail at. We all have rose-colored glasses for our favorite games. I'm sure a lot of us (I know me, in particular) wonder if we'd love our old games if we played them for the first time today.

What you said for EQ1 was true for FFXI as well. You didn't get your first weapon skill til level 3. Squishies got a spell at level 1 but they were more vulnerable to attacks/less hp.

So congratulations, seriously (honestly no sarcasm), for being able to clearly remember a facet of the game.

Still I long for things to be harder. I remember camping zone entrances many times while soloing just so I could bail on the first mob or two if rotary blades and fecal matter collided.

What you are both missing out on is the focus of Older games vs Newer games. Focus was on environment, surroundings, and awareness. Now the focus is on pressing as many buttons as possible in the correct order. I'll take auto attack and situational awareness meaning something over a dps rotation any day.

  Einherjar_LC

Tipster

Joined: 5/03/05
Posts: 1067

3/08/12 10:44:27 PM#22

Couldn't agree more OP.

 

It's the reason in large part why I've gone back to Asheron's Call full time with a side helping of UO once in awhile.

 

Todays ADD, console mentality gamers can't be bothered to put up with a deep game like UO, AC, or EQ and sadly the market reflects that currently.

Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 866

3/09/12 4:26:01 AM#23

The game being hard in the beginning is an essental part of player bonding with their character. It is important that the player becomes emotionaly invested in their character at the start or they won't stick with the game. Games like Everquest which have been out since 1999 should logicially have zero players and be closed down by now but thousands still play everyday. What has kept people playing this really old game. It is really emotional and psycological investment that keeps people hooked whether it is 3 years, 5 years or 10+ years. Cut scenes don't have the same effect in keeping people hooked years. People who are only there for the visuals and action will drop the game like a bad habbit as soon as the next best thing comes along. Everquest was called evercrack for a reason because it wasn't just a game. It was an alternate reality people would get emotionally invested in. People wouldn't give up playing their characters no sooner than they would beloved dog or cat.

  Requiem6

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/09
Posts: 243

3/09/12 6:39:57 AM#24

What you are missing is game that aren't popular at all.

 

So maybe find yourself some low-budjet game that fit you.

Just don't expect as much other than it's gonna be hard.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16706

3/09/12 6:48:27 AM#25
Originally posted by Requiem6

What you are missing is game that aren't popular at all.

So maybe find yourself some low-budjet game that fit you.

Just don't expect as much other than it's gonna be hard.

I donnu, I think that computer games have gone too far in being easy by now. almost all are so simple that they take no effort at all. In mmos there are raids and a few end game dungeons but that is it.

The first Diablo game were actually really popular and still hard. heck even GW was pretty  hard in the first year (not as much as EQ) and it sold plenty of copies.

I think the game devs have gone too far in making the game accessable to everyone. I mean I had a C-64 as a kid and I played a lot harder games then then what is out now, that is kinda sad.

You can make a rather large game with harder difficulty, it has been done before andyou can actually get all persons who think easy mode is boring, that should at least have the possibility to be larger than Rift and similar games.

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2393

3/09/12 7:14:56 AM#26

We also get better at playing .I noticed the colossal mistakes I have made in playing everquest when I look back now that I would not be caught dead doing now. We learn and as with everything in life experience makes things easier. Of course games in general are easier than Everquest was I mean you could never kill a level 3 at level 1 in Everquest that was simply not done.

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  BereKin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 285

3/09/12 7:15:28 AM#27
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Requiem6

What you are missing is game that aren't popular at all.

So maybe find yourself some low-budjet game that fit you.

Just don't expect as much other than it's gonna be hard.

I donnu, I think that computer games have gone too far in being easy by now. almost all are so simple that they take no effort at all. In mmos there are raids and a few end game dungeons but that is it.

The first Diablo game were actually really popular and still hard. heck even GW was pretty  hard in the first year (not as much as EQ) and it sold plenty of copies.

I think the game devs have gone too far in making the game accessable to everyone. I mean I had a C-64 as a kid and I played a lot harder games then then what is out now, that is kinda sad.

You can make a rather large game with harder difficulty, it has been done before andyou can actually get all persons who think easy mode is boring, that should at least have the possibility to be larger than Rift and similar games.

I totally agree with you. Many of games today are too easy, there is no challenge in them.

  Lesrach

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/05
Posts: 115

3/09/12 7:24:01 AM#28

I'm with you here (without the capitals though).

I miss that challenge as well. Darkfall 2.0 might be something to look after...

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3321

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

3/09/12 7:36:53 AM#29

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/09/12 9:52:17 AM#30
Originally posted by Adamantine

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

This ^^^^

It is stupid to kill a player multiple times before he can even figure out the mechanics of his class.

  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

3/09/12 10:13:28 AM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

This ^^^^

It is stupid to kill a player multiple times before he can even figure out the mechanics of his class.

 

Remember in those days there were these things that were printed with this thing called paper.

And there were cardboard cut outs for key mapping.

 

They were called game booklets I think?

 

Well they had words that taught you this stuff.

 

UO's book ranged to what most people consider a "real" book now at around 100+ pages.

EQ's was 60-70 pages if I recall.

 

Look if you were and are too lazy or stupid to read a game book to learn how to move, attack, or to get a good idea on the UI?

 

Chances are you are truly stupid. No sugar coating here. You were an idiot. Because all of these books explained how to do basic things. It was expected you read them first. I was a "kid" back in those days but I still managed to absorb those books well enough to know in EQ "watch your CR and use WSAD", In uo I knew it was click to move with arrows.

Literally read while walking home from buying said games. If my lazy ass can do you should of been able to too.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  BrokenSpoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 206

3/09/12 10:22:57 AM#32

EQ was a great experience from start to finish for me.. Start being 3 months in to release, finish being my first real girlfriend :D

I remember Blackburrow being absolutely nuts.. After managing to get to level 15 (1 maybe 2 months) You would start at the top and you would be there for 2 maybe 3 weeks, till level 16 or 17.. then you could start to go down the tunnel to the elite mobs, then get hit by a train of gnolls and they flattern you. 1 hour corpse run and your back in action again!!!  

All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/09/12 10:23:56 AM#33
Originally posted by Astropuyo
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

This ^^^^

It is stupid to kill a player multiple times before he can even figure out the mechanics of his class.

 

Remember in those days there were these things that were printed with this thing called paper.

And there were cardboard cut outs for key mapping.

 

They were called game booklets I think?

 

Well they had words that taught you this stuff.

 

UO's book ranged to what most people consider a "real" book now at around 100+ pages.

EQ's was 60-70 pages if I recall.

 

Look if you were and are too lazy or stupid to read a game book to learn how to move, attack, or to get a good idea on the UI?

 

Chances are you are truly stupid. No sugar coating here. You were an idiot. Because all of these books explained how to do basic things. It was expected you read them first. I was a "kid" back in those days but I still managed to absorb those books well enough to know in EQ "watch your CR and use WSAD", In uo I knew it was click to move with arrows.

Literally read while walking home from buying said games. If my lazy ass can do you should of been able to too.

Who has time to read a game manual these days? If a game does not coach the player through fun GAMEPLAY, it is a fail game. Games are ENTERTAINMENT products, not work. And i said game MECHANICS, not controls. Do you read about how to use CCs in a freaking game manual? Do you read about how to do optimal spell rotation in a game manual? It is the 2012, not 1985.

In fact, using the early game to teach the players how to play is a standard practice on FPS, action adventure, and almost all other games. MMOs should be the same.

  xenogias

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1945

3/09/12 10:24:54 AM#34
Originally posted by Astropuyo
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

 

 

 

 

Remember in those days there were these things that were printed with this thing called paper.

And there were cardboard cut outs for key mapping.

 

They were called game booklets I think?

 

Well they had words that taught you this stuff.

 

UO's book ranged to what most people consider a "real" book now at around 100+ pages.

EQ's was 60-70 pages if I recall.

 

Look if you were and are too lazy or stupid to read a game book to learn how to move, attack, or to get a good idea on the UI?

 

Chances are you are truly stupid. No sugar coating here. You were an idiot. Because all of these books explained how to do basic things. It was expected you read them first. I was a "kid" back in those days but I still managed to absorb those books well enough to know in EQ "watch your CR and use WSAD", In uo I knew it was click to move with arrows.

Literally read while walking home from buying said games. If my lazy ass can do you should of been able to too.

I'm actually going to have to agree here. I actually remember reading game manuals for every game I got before I ever started playing the game. The sad part is this applies to alot of things in life these days.

I started with Asherons Call in MMO's though I am old enough to have played certain other games. In AC you had to have half a clue. Not everything was in the manual either. You know what this created? A great community. I remember my first day playing AC. I was running around killing wildlife. Why? Because that first Drudge pack I attacked whipped my ass in a heartbeat. I was almost about to log out and say screw it. Then I decided to try a single drudge because hey, 1 cant be has hard as 3 right? BINGO. It died easily. Then a shadow sprite spawned and I'm like "wtf" and run off to attack it. its a single mob, my level, its going to die right? Um nope time to learn about magic mechancis lmao.

Ah I miss thoes days. But I also understand thoes days arent comming back no matter how much I want them to. I may not like it or agree with the reasons behind it but I know thoes days in games in general are long gone. Why? Because the days of games being for us nerds only are long gone.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/09/12 10:27:10 AM#35
Originally posted by BrokenSpoon

EQ was a great experience from start to finish for me.. Start being 3 months in to release, finish being my first real girlfriend :D

I remember Blackburrow being absolutely nuts.. You would start at the top and you would be there for 2 maybe 3 days, till level 16 or 17.. then you could start to go down the tunnel to the elite mobs, then get hit by a train of gnolls and they flattern you. 1 hour corpse run and your back in action again!!!  

That is why i quit EQ after a year .. and i stayed for 1 year just because there are few alternatives.

It felt too much like work. Something bad happen and hours of your life gone. Want to kill a boss, wait another hour. I remember blackburrow too .. glad that modern dungeons are NOT like that. Finally you can actually go into a dungeon with your friends and go get the boss.

Oh, at blackburrow, either EACH spawn spot is camped by multiple people (now how is that an adventure .. standing around to slaughter helpless mobs within the sec it spawned?), or sudden death because some idiot pulled a train.

  Jimmydean

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

3/09/12 10:27:30 AM#36
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Astropuyo
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

This ^^^^

It is stupid to kill a player multiple times before he can even figure out the mechanics of his class.

 

Remember in those days there were these things that were printed with this thing called paper.

And there were cardboard cut outs for key mapping.

 

They were called game booklets I think?

 

Well they had words that taught you this stuff.

 

UO's book ranged to what most people consider a "real" book now at around 100+ pages.

EQ's was 60-70 pages if I recall.

 

Look if you were and are too lazy or stupid to read a game book to learn how to move, attack, or to get a good idea on the UI?

 

Chances are you are truly stupid. No sugar coating here. You were an idiot. Because all of these books explained how to do basic things. It was expected you read them first. I was a "kid" back in those days but I still managed to absorb those books well enough to know in EQ "watch your CR and use WSAD", In uo I knew it was click to move with arrows.

Literally read while walking home from buying said games. If my lazy ass can do you should of been able to too.

Who has time to read a game manual these days? If a game does not coach the player through fun GAMEPLAY, it is a fail game. Games are ENTERTAINMENT products, not work. And i said game MECHANICS, not controls. Do you read about how to use CCs in a freaking game manual? Do you read about how to do optimal spell rotation in a game manual? It is the 2012, not 1985.

In fact, using the early game to teach the players how to play is a standard practice on FPS, action adventure, and almost all other games. MMOs should be the same.

What's the point of playing a game if theres no chance to lose though? Even in Solitaire, you can still lose. Every single game in the universe has a loser, or a chance to lose.

Every single game that is, except for the most recent MMORPGs. You can't lose. You might respawn in a different spot, but you've lost nothing. How is a game you can't lose any fun?

  BrokenSpoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 206

3/09/12 10:27:54 AM#37

And you lot, stop saying your old for playing UO/EQ/AC from start... I am 27 and I played them, I'm not old.. am I?

*questions self - hits a bottom of spiced rum* 

All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!

  Jimmydean

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

3/09/12 10:29:16 AM#38
Originally posted by BrokenSpoon

And you lot, stop saying your old for playing UO/EQ/AC from start... I am 27 and I played them, I'm not old.. am I?

*questions self - hits a bottom of spiced rum* 

Yea I'm only 24 and I grew up on these games. I was very young then, but still haha.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

3/09/12 10:33:25 AM#39
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Astropuyo
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

Ooooh yes !

Starting the game and getting instantly killed by some kind of goblin.

Thats whats missing from games !

Because you already so had a chance to learn the controls, and everything.

I'm going to do some headbanging now. Err, for better blood circulation. Yes.

 

This ^^^^

It is stupid to kill a player multiple times before he can even figure out the mechanics of his class.

 

Remember in those days there were these things that were printed with this thing called paper.

And there were cardboard cut outs for key mapping.

 

They were called game booklets I think?

 

Well they had words that taught you this stuff.

 

UO's book ranged to what most people consider a "real" book now at around 100+ pages.

EQ's was 60-70 pages if I recall.

 

Look if you were and are too lazy or stupid to read a game book to learn how to move, attack, or to get a good idea on the UI?

 

Chances are you are truly stupid. No sugar coating here. You were an idiot. Because all of these books explained how to do basic things. It was expected you read them first. I was a "kid" back in those days but I still managed to absorb those books well enough to know in EQ "watch your CR and use WSAD", In uo I knew it was click to move with arrows.

Literally read while walking home from buying said games. If my lazy ass can do you should of been able to too.

Who has time to read a game manual these days? If a game does not coach the player through fun GAMEPLAY, it is a fail game. Games are ENTERTAINMENT products, not work. And i said game MECHANICS, not controls. Do you read about how to use CCs in a freaking game manual? Do you read about how to do optimal spell rotation in a game manual? It is the 2012, not 1985.

In fact, using the early game to teach the players how to play is a standard practice on FPS, action adventure, and almost all other games. MMOs should be the same.

What's the point of playing a game if theres no chance to lose though? Even in Solitaire, you can still lose. Every single game in the universe has a loser, or a chance to lose.

Every single game that is, except for the most recent MMORPGs. You can't lose. You might respawn in a different spot, but you've lost nothing. How is a game you can't lose any fun?

Who says there is no chance to lose? I am merely talking about using the early game to teach the players. The game can always ramp up difficult later.

Secondly, the fact that you cannot lose in most SP games should teach you something. The chance of losing is NOT the key driver for fun. Just take Deus Ex Human evoluaton as an example (highly rated, highly fun). You can always reload, so you can't lose .. but that is NOT the point.

The point is that it is fun that it has MANY ways to finish a quest, and that you can progress through the story and become more powerful. If you cannot recognize that it is fun for many, well, you can always try the IRON MAN challenge in WOW. Now you can LOSE in that one.

  Vryheid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 471

3/09/12 10:35:38 AM#40


Originally posted by Alasti
In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!
 
In Ultima Online, when I first started out (they dont have levels in UO), I remember fighting a CHICKEN for the first time.....ummm...It kicked my ARSE!   That bird flailed on me like well...a Chicken that had gone crazy!!  I died!!...THAT WAS FUN!!!  killing anything in the early part of a toons life was NOT GUARANTEED!!  A challenge and true excitement from the start!

Wow, so you managed to have a grueling, mindless grind against crappy generic monsters right from the start. If this is the "fun" you want than you can keep it in your dark age MMOs.

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