I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

In Ultima Online, when I first started out (they dont have levels in UO), I remember fighting a CHICKEN for the first time.....ummm...It kicked my ARSE!   That bird flailed on me like well...a Chicken that had gone crazy!!  I died!!...THAT WAS FUN!!!  killing anything in the early part of a toons life was NOT GUARANTEED!!  A challenge and true excitement from the start!

In games nowadays, I don't think it has taken me longer than 20 minutes to get to level 4 or 5, and the chance of my dying in any of these games at the beginning is simply not possible.  I couldnt die if I wanted to!

I miss the games of old...the ones that were a challenge...even at the beginning.  Where getting to level 5, although not HARD, was still an accomplishment.  Remember (those of you who played in EQ1 all those years ago) when ANYONE at ANY LEVEL would shout to the zone "DING!!!!!".  A dozen people who didn't even know the "dinger" shouted "Gratz!!" because even getting from level 5 to 6 MEANT SOMETHING.

Anyway...I know I rant...and I rant a lot lately...but it just feels good to get this off my chest in this way......

I wish I could say it made me feel better.... 

i beg of you to re-write this w/o the "FUN FUN"... i could not for the life of me take your post seriously (even though i've experienced what you describe)

Todays society does not want challenge. They want to be hand fed with a silver spoon.  There should be permadeath on mmos. Id like that.

Old MMO's: Step out into a world and don't pay attention -> You died !

Current MMO's: Step out into an instance and don't pay attention -> Ding, gratz to max level and epic gear !

IN before the, "If it was so good, why aren't developers making games like this anymore?"...or..."You are too old to appriciate that mmos are better now"....."Money talks, old games suck and were boring, no quest hubs, coins cloating above npcs heads etc..."

I consider the last 5-6 years or so the MMO Dark Ages!

I remember when Everquest launched, I made a high elf paladin my best friend made an erudin mage. Here I was level 2 heading out on this epic journey to join my friend.

No one on the server even had bind yet,  the boats would dump you in the ocean when they zoned, and mino chasm was jam packed full of evil eyes and minotaurs. Not to mention the insane dash thru runnyeye.

Anyway after 4 hours,  2boats, and 13 or 14 zones I finally got to my friend, first pull I got 2 kerrans on me and died and was all the way back at the high elf starting town.

However even so, that was one of the most fun most memorable explorations I have ever had in any game.

I don't miss it at all.

If i want to make progress, i can.

If i want a challenge, i go raid hard mode.

Having choices is good.

+1.

The first levels in FFXI weren't quite that hard, but they were hard. I remember needing to stop and rest every few kills. Mobs agro'd and linked from the starter zones all the way to cap and unless you were camping the entrance, you were usually better off taking the death than trying to run for the entrance and putting your corpse in an unsavory spot.

FFXI's guards were mean though, they'd never assist in a fight :(.

I had a long thread going over at the official Tera forums and while most players were with me on the idea that Island of Dawn (the 1-11 zone) is FAR too easy, others kept reminding me that if I want a game to be hard, all I have to do is dequip gear and play stupidly. (I haaaaate that argument.)

Considering the wide MMO crowd, I don't mind a more casual experience, but things can be harder without being hard. Tera's Island of Dawn feels about as threatening as a day in the life of a carebear. First thing I tell anyone interested in the game (as I'm very in love with it) is "Do not judge the game before 20 please." and I hate having to say that.

Originally posted by Zaltark

Todays society does not want challenge. They want to be hand fed with a silver spoon.  There should be permadeath on mmos. Id like that.

I never understood permadeath fans.

What is the point? Why would anyone want to spend months and months developing their character only to have it taken away because of connection loss etc.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Zaltark

Todays society does not want challenge. They want to be hand fed with a silver spoon.  There should be permadeath on mmos. Id like that.

I never understood permadeath fans.

What is the point? Why would anyone want to spend months and months developing their character only to have it taken away because of connection loss etc.

Permadeath games are designed differently.  It doesn't take months and months to do anything with a character in these types of games.  You don't need a long grind because a short grind is interesting enough.  Even with a low level/skill cap people don't get bored because they will eventually lose their character.

I also agree with the OP as well.  Current mmorps are not challenging whatsoever early on.  They are tedius and boring.  Yes, people can make "progress" just by playing.  A trained monkey could too.  Waste of time.

Originally posted by Zaltark

Todays society does not want challenge. They want to be hand fed with a silver spoon.  There should be permadeath on mmos. Id like that.

It depends on how you define "challenge", and "fed with a silver spoon".

If "challenge" means harsh death penalty and requires many hours of work to "play" the game every week, and "fed with a silver spoon" means a few month to level to max, and gear up in weeks .. then sign me up for "silver spoon".

That sounds 1000x more fun.

Originally posted by Alasti

I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

 

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

 

See... here's the thing about that. Levels 1, 2, and 3 in EQ1? There was only RNG and nothing else. What you call challenge was nothing more than die rolls that you were somewhat likely to lose. As a level 1 Shadowknight, there was nothing you could do to influence the outcome of a combat. Just choose an enemy, turn on autoattack, and wait to win or die. It wasn't a challenge in the sense that it was a test of skill, because a skilled player had no way to do better in combat than an unskilled player.

Additionally, the beginning of a good game should teach the player about the game. EQ did a really poor job of this. Modern MMOs go waaaay overboard with handholding for the entire beginning, but EQ was overboard in the opposite direction. Here, go watch this video: Sequelitis - Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X by Egoraptor (warning: strong language). Pay special attention to the part about Conveyance. Even if getting to level 5 was an accomplishment, a level 5 EQ player knows much less about how to play the game than someone who plays a modern MMO for the same amount of time. The game did very little to teach you about itself.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Alasti

I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

 

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

 

See... here's the thing about that. Levels 1, 2, and 3 in EQ1? There was only RNG and nothing else. What you call challenge was nothing more than die rolls that you were somewhat likely to lose. As a level 1 Shadowknight, there was nothing you could do to influence the outcome of a combat. Just choose an enemy, turn on autoattack, and wait to win or die. It wasn't a challenge in the sense that it was a test of skill, because a skilled player had no way to do better in combat than an unskilled player.

Additionally, the beginning of a good game should teach the player about the game. EQ did a really poor job of this. Modern MMOs go waaaay overboard with handholding for the entire beginning, but EQ was overboard in the opposite direction. Here, go watch this video: Sequelitis - Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X by Egoraptor (warning: strong language). Pay special attention to the part about Conveyance. Even if getting to level 5 was an accomplishment, a level 5 EQ player knows much less about how to play the game than someone who plays a modern MMO for the same amount of time. The game did very little to teach you about itself.

For me EQ1 was hard at the beginning.  But it was also my first MMO I had a few things to learn about what I was even doing, let alone game etiquette.  I remember being challenged to a duel on my 1st day in EQ because I was ksing.  I had no idea what ksing was and thought I was just helping everyone.  Today if it released and I had still played the zillion MMO's over the last 12 years I'm pretty sure it would not be hard.  Long yes but not hard.

In fact I'm pretty sure, for me at least, EQ had very few things that made it hard.  Most of the classes really only had 2-3 abilities and auto attack.  Routine for non casters and non bards were 1. find blue 2.  Attack, 3. leave computer, make something to eat or watch a show for 3 minutes. 4 come back mob is dead, find new mob.

That was not hard.  It just a long time for each fight, and a very long time for each level.

edit - what I miss is the newness.  I have no problem with old games, or new games, or themepark or sandbox.  I've just played them all or enough versions of them.

I need a completely new experience now,. a new way to play, a new way to see, a new way to interface.  Probably won't happen till kinnect becomes more usable, then surround video, then virtual reality - course if that hit's I'll be a chiphead and die haha.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Alasti

I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

 

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

 

See... here's the thing about that. Levels 1, 2, and 3 in EQ1? There was only RNG and nothing else. What you call challenge was nothing more than die rolls that you were somewhat likely to lose. As a level 1 Shadowknight, there was nothing you could do to influence the outcome of a combat. Just choose an enemy, turn on autoattack, and wait to win or die. It wasn't a challenge in the sense that it was a test of skill, because a skilled player had no way to do better in combat than an unskilled player.

Additionally, the beginning of a good game should teach the player about the game. EQ did a really poor job of this. Modern MMOs go waaaay overboard with handholding for the entire beginning, but EQ was overboard in the opposite direction. Here, go watch this video: Sequelitis - Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X by Egoraptor (warning: strong language). Pay special attention to the part about Conveyance. Even if getting to level 5 was an accomplishment, a level 5 EQ player knows much less about how to play the game than someone who plays a modern MMO for the same amount of time. The game did very little to teach you about itself.

You're good at something a lot of us fail at. We all have rose-colored glasses for our favorite games. I'm sure a lot of us (I know me, in particular) wonder if we'd love our old games if we played them for the first time today.

What you said for EQ1 was true for FFXI as well. You didn't get your first weapon skill til level 3. Squishies got a spell at level 1 but they were more vulnerable to attacks/less hp.

So congratulations, seriously (honestly no sarcasm), for being able to clearly remember a facet of the game.

Still I long for things to be harder. I remember camping zone entrances many times while soloing just so I could bail on the first mob or two if rotary blades and fecal matter collided.

I miss the games of old...the ones that were a challenge...even at the beginning.  Where getting to level 5, although not HARD, was still an accomplishment.

Too many games put you way above the enemies as if your some special hero on a platform. But you can't be the special here when everyone else is the special hero as well or it just takes you out of the game as far as immersion goes.

I agree that beginning enemies should be more difficult but not to the effect illustrated by this t-shirt design from the shop linked to from the web comic "Order of the Stick" (really worth a read imho)

You just enjoyed it more because those where your early mmo experiences, not because that was a better style of play.   Just as your first love is special even if in retrospect she was a blood sucking shallow harpy.  

That being said, I miss challenge in all games from single player action to mmo.. all of them seem dumbed down.   One of the things that I've always enjoyed as a gamer is the feeling of beating odds stacked against me.  Games now the odds are HEAVILY stacked in my favor even if you play games on hard, thats really the "normal" difficulty setting.  

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Too many games put you way above the enemies as if your some special hero on a platform. But you can't be the special here when everyone else is the special hero as well or it just takes you out of the game as far as immersion goes.

Exactly. I never got that myself. If everyone is a hero, than no one is a hero. So why not have a slot for the average citizen. Its fine to be a storm trooper, or a gods son, or this really amazing adventurer, but the npc's have taken up all the roles of the living breathing world.  In an mmo with all sorts of players from all walks, regardless of your game, no one is the same. People are good and bad at all sorts of things and not everyone wears (let alone cares to carry) the hero tag.

I agree. In those games there was a real sense of accomplishment. I don't feel that in today's themeparks.

Originally posted by Alasti

I played Everquest 1 the first week it came out.  I played Ultima Online the first day it came out.  (Yes, its true...I'm old...There...I admit it)  In both of these games, the beginning (first several days) was hard.  Living through an encounter was by no means guaranteed!

 

In EQ1, when I was levels 1, 2, and 3, I ran back to the guards to kill the BAT or BEE i was fighting, more times than I would like to admit.  Killing a level 1 when you were level 1 was not a sure thing.  Killing a level 2 (orc pawn) when you were level 1 was suicide!  THAT WAS FUN!!! Exciting from the beginning!  Had to be careful from the start!

 

In Ultima Online, when I first started out (they dont have levels in UO), I remember fighting a CHICKEN for the first time.....ummm...It kicked my ARSE!   That bird flailed on me like well...a Chicken that had gone crazy!!  I died!!...THAT WAS FUN!!!  killing anything in the early part of a toons life was NOT GUARANTEED!!  A challenge and true excitement from the start!

 

In games nowadays, I don't think it has taken me longer than 20 minutes to get to level 4 or 5, and the chance of my dying in any of these games at the beginning is simply not possible.  I couldnt die if I wanted to!

 

I miss the games of old...the ones that were a challenge...even at the beginning.  Where getting to level 5, although not HARD, was still an accomplishment.  Remember (those of you who played in EQ1 all those years ago) when ANYONE at ANY LEVEL would shout to the zone "DING!!!!!".  A dozen people who didn't even know the "dinger" shouted "Gratz!!" because even getting from level 5 to 6 MEANT SOMETHING.

 

Anyway...I know I rant...and I rant a lot lately...but it just feels good to get this off my chest in this way......

 

I wish I could say it made me feel better.... 

Then you got bored and moved on like the rest, finding every other game just as boring. Following it with another thread on how the old days were much better!