Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

 

In EQ, there entire zones you can't go to unless you are at the right level. What is your point? There are always restrictions in a MMO of where you can go to level.

That comment is a prime example of theme park brain washing.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

 

In EQ, there entire zones you can't go to unless you are at the right level. What is your point? There are always restrictions in a MMO of where you can go to level.

Uh.. but you can go to those zones, actually. The mobs will probably kill you, but you can go there. In LotRO you either hit an invisible wall or get insta killed for setting foot there by an invisible force.

The point is, in quest based games, quests are absolutely mandatory, with no alternate ways to level. In games like DAoC, there were many ways to level. Yet people (misguided people) are trying to say there's more variety in quest based games.

I also miss the the BEGINNING of games being hard...

For any of you who did not know, when you were first starting in EQ1, killing a bat was by no means guaranteed.  I remember MANY MANY times having to run back to the guards (so they would dispatch the ugly orc pawn) to live when I was level 1-3.  It was a BIG deal to get to level 5!!  So much fun!!

I also remember in Ultima Online, I (unfortunately and embarassingly) was killed by a freakin CHICKEN!  Killing anything was NOT GUARANTEED.  That was FUN!!

In games nowadays, I'm level 5 in the first 20 minutes...BORING!!!  I seriously have NO CHANCE of dying at ALL for the first several levels....C'mon.....thats so rediculous....

The social part of the game in the outdoor pve enviroment. In modern mmo's everyone for the most part will solo to the end game. The only social I find in modern mmo's is in a guild enviroment. The best social game I played in the old days was SWG. We miss you. :(

A close second is the challenge in the pve outdoor enviroment while you level. I don't feel any fear anymore in modern mmo's while you level. On the bright side at least I can say I miss those days and have the memories. I feel for many young people today for they most likely will never get to experience that type of game play.

No set direction, you picked your own way of going about things.  But mostly that it forced very solitary introverted difficult bitch me to actually have to talk to and group with and work with other people.  Now I don't have to work with anyone ever in most new games that come out and if I don't have to, I generally won't.

Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

No set direction, you picked your own way of going about things.  But mostly that it forced very solitary introverted difficult bitch me to actually have to talk to and group with and work with other people.  Now I don't have to work with anyone ever in most new games that come out and if I don't have to, I generally won't.

GREAT POINT!  I am the same way.  When given the option, I will solo... Games of old FORCED me to group...FORCED me to be in a guild.... FORCED me to rely on others...and I will tell you what.... every one of my best memories in ANY MMORPG occurred while either grouped or dealing with my guild. 

Originally posted by Alasti

I also miss the the BEGINNING of games being hard...

For any of you who did not know, when you were first starting in EQ1, killing a bat was by no means guaranteed.  I remember MANY MANY times having to run back to the guards (so they would dispatch the ugly orc pawn) to live when I was level 1-3.  It was a BIG deal to get to level 5!!  So much fun!!

I also remember in Ultima Online, I (unfortunately and embarassingly) was killed by a freakin CHICKEN!  Killing anything was NOT GUARANTEED.  That was FUN!! 

In games nowadays, I'm level 5 in the first 20 minutes...BORING!!!  I seriously have NO CHANCE of dying at ALL for the first several levels....C'mon.....thats so rediculous....

+1.

The first levels in FFXI weren't quite that hard, but they were hard. I remember needing to stop and rest every few kills. Mobs agro'd and linked from the starter zones all the way to cap and unless you were camping the entrance, you were usually better off taking the death than trying to run for the entrance and putting your corpse in an unsavory spot.

FFXI's guards were mean though, they'd never assist in a fight :(.

I had a long thread going over at the official Tera forums and while most players were with me on the idea that Island of Dawn (the 1-11 zone) is FAR too easy, others kept reminding me that if I want a game to be hard, all I have to do is dequip gear and play stupidly. (I haaaaate that argument.).

Considering the wide MMO crowd, I don't mind a more casual experience, but things can be harder without being hard. Tera's Island of Dawn feels about as threatening as a day in the life of a carebear. First thing I tell anyone interested in the game (as I'm very in love with it) is "Do not judge the game before 20 please." and I hate having to say that.

Originally posted by Alasti

Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

No set direction, you picked your own way of going about things.  But mostly that it forced very solitary introverted difficult bitch me to actually have to talk to and group with and work with other people.  Now I don't have to work with anyone ever in most new games that come out and if I don't have to, I generally won't.

GREAT POINT!  I am the same way.  When given the option, I will solo... Games of old FORCED me to group...FORCED me to be in a guild.... FORCED me to rely on others...and I will tell you what.... every one of my best memories in ANY MMORPG occurred while either grouped or dealing with my guild. 

 

Exactly :) 

Also another +1 on your point, games are so easy now, not just the beginning either :/  All of them, I got a 50 in SWToR who has 0 social points and died so seldom, just sigh.

Challenge is important too, they need to realize challenge is important or we'll all lose interest eventually.

Not being spoonfed... EVERY. DAMN. THING.

Originally posted by Alasti

Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

No set direction, you picked your own way of going about things.  But mostly that it forced very solitary introverted difficult bitch me to actually have to talk to and group with and work with other people.  Now I don't have to work with anyone ever in most new games that come out and if I don't have to, I generally won't.

GREAT POINT!  I am the same way.  When given the option, I will solo... Games of old FORCED me to group...FORCED me to be in a guild.... FORCED me to rely on others...and I will tell you what.... every one of my best memories in ANY MMORPG occurred while either grouped or dealing with my guild. 

 

I read the green text and had my three paragraph response thought out.. I'm glad I finished reading the post. I thought you were one of the people complaining about MMOs being multiplayer.

I'm the same way. When I can quest myself, I prefer to. If I come upon a boss mob and there are other people hunting it, I'll group just so noone has to wait any longer but I'll drop right after that's done.

But when group play is forced, I'll have a blast and be quite sociable. I guess I like group play but I prefer to do it with the smallest group possible, even if that is 1. lol.

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

 

In EQ, there entire zones you can't go to unless you are at the right level. What is your point? There are always restrictions in a MMO of where you can go to level.

Uh.. but you can go to those zones, actually. The mobs will probably kill you, but you can go there. In LotRO you either hit an invisible wall or get insta killed for setting foot there by an invisible force.

The point is, in quest based games, quests are absolutely mandatory, with no alternate ways to level. In games like DAoC, there were many ways to level. Yet people (misguided people) are trying to say there's more variety in quest based games.

What is the difference between a wall or a mob that will kill you within 5 step into the zone?

And what "no alternative"?

- you can choose different quests

- you can pvp

- you can do dungeons

You are just blinded by an illogical nostalgic yearn to go back to what you know and can accept progress.

I miss peeps asking my druid for a port and me porting them to wakeing lands and wushi killing them all cause they didnt have his faction up .lol

Entering new zones or areas with genuine trepidation, knowing that any of the mobs could aggro at any second. They would then chase me, catch me, kill me without mercy and rip a portion of my aquired XP from my soul.

I suspect in the future MMO death will come with an instant res and a health and power buff so you don't have to experience the inconvenience of dying anytime soon. The mob you were fighting will then commit seppuku by your side so you can still claim all the loot you lost through your failure.

What I miss is being able to buy things that other people sold to vendors.

In Old EQ they only showed about 20 slots of merchant inventory.  The items beneath those 20 were still there -- so if you bought out an item, a new item would show up from underneath.  I actually eventually had this down to a science.  I had stacks of fish and other things at the ready for when the servers came back up and I would do things like -- sell ONE spider web and ONE small spider web and ONE MQ pelt and one HQ pelt etc to a vendor then bury it in other junk enough of which being expensive to rebuy but exotic enough that it was unlikely to become like 40 fine weapons(fine weapons were a bane) and then a few days later buy down to the spider webs etc and get stacks of the things.

I had mules in almost every city and in some other places -- I mean I checked skyshrine vendors for gems that people would sell for the vellious special armors.  I had alts in neriak, in grobb, in kaladim, etc.  I didnt seed off the beaten path vendors but people didnt check them enough anyway and I got some really good things off them. 

I remember hanging around the vendors in AC especially back when items had to be IDed and getting really good items other people sold for one purpose or another right off the vendor.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

 

In EQ, there entire zones you can't go to unless you are at the right level. What is your point? There are always restrictions in a MMO of where you can go to level.

Uh.. but you can go to those zones, actually. The mobs will probably kill you, but you can go there. In LotRO you either hit an invisible wall or get insta killed for setting foot there by an invisible force.

The point is, in quest based games, quests are absolutely mandatory, with no alternate ways to level. In games like DAoC, there were many ways to level. Yet people (misguided people) are trying to say there's more variety in quest based games.

What is the difference between a wall or a mob that will kill you within 5 step into the zone?

And what "no alternative"?

- you can choose different quests

- you can pvp

- you can do dungeons

You are just blinded by an illogical nostalgic yearn to go back to what you know and can accept progress.

Sadly casual players don't seem to know the difference between a wall and a mob these days. 

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Meaningful Death Penalty is right up there with me too.  I love the fact that you had to retrieve your corpse and all its possession because it added sense of actual danger.  the few times where you died and had to put together a corpse retrieval group was amazingly fun and a quest in and of itself.

 

My tops things all come from Asherons Call:

1. Spell research.  Finding a high level spell through luck was awesome.
2. Exploration in a huge world
3. not having fed-ex style questing but an in depth quests that rewarded you with amazing items and tons of EXP but they might take you 2-3 hours to run through and require a full group.
4. An experience based skill system and beign able to aquire the skills I want instead of beign pigeon-holed into specific classes.  3-School Axe melee anyone.
5. Not having one cnetralized locale to hang out but many many towns and hamlets that certain guilds would call home.
6. A dynamic loot system that required a great deal of luck.  its amazing that after 12+ years in AC I still have not built the ideal suit of armor.
7. those are many but I am missing alot.

I agree wholeheartedly with all those.  Bit AC was and still is a pretty singular game.  Not sure why no one bothers to copy it, it was fairly successful.

As for not caring about dying because of death penalties, that is foreign to me.  I NEVER want to die.  Ever.  Dying is losing and I don't want to lose.  I frankly don't know what is wrong with people that they need this. 

When I lost a wrestling match in high school I did not need someone to beat me with a whip to feel bad.  Of course I did have a record to maintain and some bragging rights.  But then again while 50% of my wins were pins (and I had like a 75% win ratio) I didn't go for pins for bragging rights or really even because I wanted to get more team points, its just the way I do things.

Gimme all of the above I seriously don't give a rat's ass about death penalties.

Clearly there is a large divide in psychology for this.  So how do we make a game that can bridge that divide?

I was a younger person

Originally posted by gestalt11

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Meaningful Death Penalty is right up there with me too.  I love the fact that you had to retrieve your corpse and all its possession because it added sense of actual danger.  the few times where you died and had to put together a corpse retrieval group was amazingly fun and a quest in and of itself.

 

My tops things all come from Asherons Call:

1. Spell research.  Finding a high level spell through luck was awesome.
2. Exploration in a huge world
3. not having fed-ex style questing but an in depth quests that rewarded you with amazing items and tons of EXP but they might take you 2-3 hours to run through and require a full group.
4. An experience based skill system and beign able to aquire the skills I want instead of beign pigeon-holed into specific classes.  3-School Axe melee anyone.
5. Not having one cnetralized locale to hang out but many many towns and hamlets that certain guilds would call home.
6. A dynamic loot system that required a great deal of luck.  its amazing that after 12+ years in AC I still have not built the ideal suit of armor.
7. those are many but I am missing alot.

I agree wholeheartedly with all those.  Bit AC was and still is a pretty singular game.  Not sure why no one bothers to copy it, it was fairly successful.

 

As for not caring about dying because of death penalties, that is foreign to me.  I NEVER want to die.  Ever.  Dying is losing and I don't want to lose.  I frankly don't know what is wrong with people that they need this. 

When I lost a wrestling match in high school I did not need someone to beat me with a whip to feel bad.  Of course I did have a record to maintain and some bragging rights.  But then again while 50% of my wins were pins (and I had like a 75% win ratio) I didn't go for pins for bragging rights or really even because I wanted to get more team points, its just the way I do things.

Gimme all of the above I seriously don't give a rat's ass about death penalties.

 

Clearly there is a large divide in psychology for this.  So how do we make a game that can bridge that divide?

Why does every game have to appeal to every type of player? There is more than one choice at McDonalds right? Not every car looks exactly the same right? Not everyone wears the  same style of clothing right? Then please tell me why every MMO must appeal to everyone?

Realm of the Mad God is the best example I see of making death penalties OK. You die quickly, get points for dying (it's the only way to unlock classes), and don't feel like you have to grind a ton to get back to where you were.

Long progression based games with death penalties will always be niche, not that that's necessarily a bad thing. If you can make a good enough game that has that you might be able to find a playerbase, but I dunno.

A kid-less community and a challenge... non of this token crap and handing out shinys... damn wow