Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

 

 

Really? Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up just as fast and get just as much gear by grinding mobs as by doing quests. I'll gladly play it.

Surely you mean, "Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up as fast by doing quests which are varied and interesting, not just rinse and repeat kill 10 rats. I'll gladly play it."?

Otherwise people are just going to replace one boring ass grind with another.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

 

 

Really? Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up just as fast and get just as much gear by grinding mobs as by doing quests. I'll gladly play it.

Surely you mean, "Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up as fast by doing quests which are varied and interesting, not just rinse and repeat kill 10 rats. I'll gladly play it."?

 

Otherwise people are just going to replace one boring ass grind with another.

 

Can't be done. Unless you let someone level from 1-50 using just 10 quests, they're going to get samey and boring if its the only way to level. I don't want quest based leveling. It defeats the very idea of what a quest is. When quests are the only way to level they become chores you HAVE to do. In DAOC I did quests because I wanted to. I wanted to explore, I wanted the story, I wanted to help the people of Albion. I was sometimes rewarded by my efforts, but my motivation usually wasn't dooing it to level up.

So no, I don't want an MMO with "varied and interesting quests to level up" because if that was my goal I'd just play a singleplayer RPG. I want to be a part of a virtual world and play with other people and quest based leveling does NOT work with that.

working hard and earning things so that my acheavments actually mean something rather than hey here some free endgame gear.......

Being able to "lose"

Games today are a joke. You hardly ever die, and when you do it's no big deal because you're at most 5 minutes away from starting your adventure all over again. It's a joke. Too many casuals who were breastfed too long have no idea what it is like to risk something. I miss EARNING progression. Not just putting in the time... which really doesn't need to be done anymore becaus eyou can bot most of these simplistic hamster wheel games anyway. 

I want to think that there is a future, but the way things are going I think Mike Judge nailed in on the head in Idiocracy.

Crafting that takes me hours to get how it ist working.

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

 

 

 

Surely you mean, "Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up as fast by doing quests which are varied and interesting, not just rinse and repeat kill 10 rats. I'll gladly play it."?

 

Otherwise people are just going to replace one boring ass grind with another.

 

Can't be done. Unless you let someone level from 1-50 using just 10 quests, they're going to get samey and boring if its the only way to level. I don't want quest based leveling. It defeats the very idea of what a quest is. When quests are the only way to level they become chores you HAVE to do. In DAOC I did quests because I wanted to. I wanted to explore, I wanted the story, I wanted to help the people of Albion. I was sometimes rewarded by my efforts, but my motivation usually wasn't dooing it to level up.

So no, I don't want an MMO with "varied and interesting quests to level up" because if that was my goal I'd just play a singleplayer RPG. I want to be a part of a virtual world and play with other people and quest based leveling does NOT work with that.

You will find I am of the same mind actually, the point I was making that people probably CAN show you games where you level up incredibly quickly through quests. But said quests would be rinse and repeat, boring ass affairs for 99.99% of the time.

Variety comes primarily through unexpected events/changes and through interaction with other players, who unlike npcs are not scripted. This for me is why themepark/heavily structured games have little variety of note.

Still more interesting quests breaking away from the "whack 10 rats" archetype would offer some variety, but mmos don't even have that currently and yet people on here seem to think that modern day games are some sort of paragon of it.

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

Non Quest based games allow freedom and encourage socializing.

We are talking about variety.

Plus, non quest leveling has LESS freedom since you are killing the same thing over and over again.

Uh... only if you choose to kill the same thing over and over. That's the thing, you don't have to. You could replicate your "quest based variety" and kill 10 from that camp, 10 from this camp, 10 from that zone. Nothing's stopping you. In a quest based game, the very mechanics are stopping you.

Even in DAoC they'd reward you with camp bonuses for finding out of the way camps that hadn't been touched in a long time.

So no, I don't think you understand freedom.

 The mechanics aren't stopping me, they give me more choice, which means more freedom.  I quest when I want, I grind when I want.  The choice is completely up to me.

Really? Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up just as fast and get just as much gear by grinding mobs as by doing quests. I'll gladly play it.

 Who said anything about speed.  I do them because I enjoy them, if I enjoy it than how fast it happens means nothing.  The fact is just by having quests I have a choice on how to play. 

Open world dungeons that are big, elaborate, and actually ...GASP....have other people in them!  Pain in the butt trains, that add to the danger....Actually grinding/rare/UR drops in the dungeons, tired of linear quest hubs as being the viable way to advance. 

So miss open world dungeons, could do without everything being instanced.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Bior

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bior

 

Non Quest based games allow freedom and encourage socializing.

We are talking about variety.

Plus, non quest leveling has LESS freedom since you are killing the same thing over and over again.

Uh... only if you choose to kill the same thing over and over. That's the thing, you don't have to. You could replicate your "quest based variety" and kill 10 from that camp, 10 from this camp, 10 from that zone. Nothing's stopping you. In a quest based game, the very mechanics are stopping you.

Even in DAoC they'd reward you with camp bonuses for finding out of the way camps that hadn't been touched in a long time.

So no, I don't think you understand freedom.

 The mechanics aren't stopping me, they give me more choice, which means more freedom.  I quest when I want, I grind when I want.  The choice is completely up to me.

Really? Show me a WoW clone quest grinder where I can level up just as fast and get just as much gear by grinding mobs as by doing quests. I'll gladly play it.

 Who said anything about speed.  I do them because I enjoy them, if I enjoy it than how fast it happens means nothing.  The fact is just by having quests I have a choice on how to play. 

I shouldn't be surprised that you missed the point entirely.

The game mechanics of quest based games limit variety because that don't make it feasible to play the game any other way. You may enjoy doing the same thing over and over again, but I don't. And in non quest baesd games, there are other things to do. In quest based games, there aren't.

Heh, see people actually trying to argue the old, you can make your own gameplay in a linear quest hub game....Sorry, no...Those rat mazes are designed to be played a certain way, trying to make them play like a open world is like proving you can drink water through your nose...Sure it can be done....but really?

Originally posted by SuperXero89

EXP camps.  I prefer running dungeons to questing solo, but sometimes dungeon grinding is just too fast paced.  I miss just running to a set location in a zone and just grinding for hours with a full group of other players. 

/agree

Originally posted by Xthos

Heh, see people actually trying to argue the old, you can make your own gameplay in a linear quest hub game....Sorry, no...Those rat mazes are designed to be played a certain way, trying to make them play like a open world is like proving you can drink water through your nose...Sure it can be done....but really?

 

 And yet I do, I don't have to follow the quests, and frequently don't, but they are there for when I choose to do them.

I honestly have to say I miss the community I used to find. In vanilla WoW, People were always getting together and helping each other out. Now if you try to do this in WoW, Your going to end up with some elitist jerks who think they can do everything or that you can do everything if your trying to learn a new class. It honestly sucks cause I'm trying to get people who are willing to let a new healer try and make a difference.

The other thing I miss is the raiding. The thrill of it was just awesome. Nowadays, Boss fights in raids are getting easier and easier as time goes on. If you want a perfect example, Go watch Towelliee on his Star Wars raid nights. They are clearing boss's quite easily on Nightmare Mode. I want the old raids back where it possed a challenge to the raiders. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Xthos

Heh, see people actually trying to argue the old, you can make your own gameplay in a linear quest hub game....Sorry, no...Those rat mazes are designed to be played a certain way, trying to make them play like a open world is like proving you can drink water through your nose...Sure it can be done....but really?

 

 And yet I do, I don't have to follow the quests, and frequently don't, but they are there for when I choose to do them.

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

But, if your imagination is powerful enough to turn a Wow clone into a sandbox, imagine what you'd be able to do in a sandbox.

Here's one: not reusing content.

Every MMO I've played that was released since WoW reuses content which I absolutely hate.  Max level version of low level dungeons, multiple difficulties of the same raid or multiple raid sizes of the same raid (or both, usually).  I know it saves development time but it strikes me as incredibly lazy and cheap.  At least in RIFT the hard mode dungeons had 2-3 extra bosses and a new area that was closed off in the normal version, but it still was the same dungeon.

Open world dungeons as a previous poster said also would be another thing I definitely miss.

Originally posted by Bior

In a non quest based game, I COULD grind the same spot for hours upon hours, if I wanted to. But it would be just as viable to grind a different spot.

In quest based games, this is not the case. If you do not quest, you do not progress. Period. You get almost no experience at all from killing monsters.  So, you are forced by the game mechanics themselves to do those repetative. boring linear quests.

In a quest base game, i COULD follow the quest chain for hours upon hours, if i wanted to. But it would be jsut as viable to go to ANOTHER quest chain.

In a non-quest base game, this is not hte case, if you do not grind, you do not progress, PERIOD. You get no xp at all from other activities. So you are forced by the same mechanics themselves to do those repetative, boring mob grinds.

Originally posted by Bior

 

You kind of do, actually. In LotRO there are entire zones you can't go to unless you follow the quests.

 

In EQ, there entire zones you can't go to unless you are at the right level. What is your point? There are always restrictions in a MMO of where you can go to level.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Xthos

Heh, see people actually trying to argue the old, you can make your own gameplay in a linear quest hub game....Sorry, no...Those rat mazes are designed to be played a certain way, trying to make them play like a open world is like proving you can drink water through your nose...Sure it can be done....but really?

 

 And yet I do, I don't have to follow the quests, and frequently don't, but they are there for when I choose to do them.

Exactly. There are WAY more choices to level in modern MMOs than the horrible mob grind fest in the old ones.

In the old mob grinding game, there is ONE choice - grind mobs. May be there are 2-3 spots you can use (and have to fight with others for). That is it.

In a modern MMO, you can

1) do quests .. and the selections are much HIGHER than a few mob spawn spot.

2) do dungeons with lfg tools

3) pvp in BG .. not that i like P2P ... but it is a choice

4) grind mobs! (heck, not the fastest, but still is a choice)

I am glad that most developers are not pig headed and listen to the whiners to go back to the old ways.

A sense of server community.

Relam pride in DAoC, when if you wanted to play the other sie, you went to another server and not just log off and go to the currently winning realm.

The game being harder, you could log on, play the night and end up needing more xp than when you started, for the next level.

Making maps from hand to put on the wall, wasnt anythng like in game maps pointing you to everything you needed to do...lots of stuff.