Originally posted by Zekiah

So, I guess callilng it a MMO is problematic in the first place

Only if you completely ignore the flashpoints, group quests, operations, and PVP maps that make it just as much of an MMORPG as all other games that model themselves after WoW.  The only major difference is SW:TOR adds a story component to the solo questing already found all over MMORPGs.

...along with everyone else who has also chosen that "hero" class. Same quests. Same cut scenes. Same voice overs. Same hero, different skin

But unless you are teamed up with one and you both are duoing all class quest instances where you literally repeat each instance twice so both of you can get credit, how does that affect you that other people playing the same class have the same story?  The lore dictates that there is only one jedi that confronts the emperor, and one jedi (you) is all you will ever see doing such.  All that mattters is what "you" see in "your" game.  The rest of the jedi out there may as well be stage extras for all you care.  This is a multiplayer game, you can't have a million different storylines for players to play through, so certain consessions have to be made.  If you are unable to accept those concessions that's your problem, not BioWare's.

Never played that game but if everyone is forced down the same "hero" path ala SWTOR then yes, I wouldn't feel heroic at all, just ordinary.

It's a single-player game.  With a few minor differences, you're going to end up playing through the exact same game as your friend down the street.  If you understood all that, you are essentially saying that you still wouldn't feel heroic right?  Does that also mean you won't find the experience enjoyable?  What can you do in a game like Skyrim that makes you feel heroic?  Give me example of something you can do in another MMORPG that makes you feel heroic.

I understand the differences just fine. My problem is understanding how a Skinner box can be so much fun to be chained inside of

Free-roam games don't provide the same sort of entertainment as a storybased game.  I like pizza, but I wouldn't want to eat it every night.  Similarly, I love games that give me a lot of freedom to explore and to do whatever I want whenever I feel like it, but those aren't the only games I enjoy.  I feel sorry that you're missing out on a load of really good games all because you cannot enjoy anything but a free-roam sandbox.

Whining? Why not just go ahead and call us trolls and haters for good measure. I'm thankful that people actually take the time to post their displeasure with games here, it's saved me many a buck. Perhaps one day MMORPG.com will become a place where only "positive" and "uplifting" posts will be allowed but until that time I'm glad we all have a voice.

There's a lot you can criticize about SW:TOR, but the story-based gameplay isn't really one of those things.  It's working exactly as intended and is quite enjoyable "if" you like that style of gameplay.  From day 1, BioWare made no secret about the sort of game they were making, so I don't know where you get off on saying stuff like criticism here has "saved...many a buck."  Unless you've been living under a rock, you should know that SW:TOR was always going to be a story-based MMORPG modeled after World of Warcraft. You didn't need to come to mmorpg.com to listen to critiques to figure that one out, yet all you keep going on about is how linear the game is and how you can't feel heroic because everyone else is following the same linear questline.  Guess what though, that's how all BioWare games are.  From KOTOR to Mass Effect to Dragon Age, all their games are linear storylines that you progress through exactly like the next guy only there might be a few more options here and there because those games are all single player.  So now that I've said that, it's not that what you're complaining about shows any flaws with SW:TOR.  You're only complaining because you don't like that style of game.  If you want to talk about a lack of endgame content, issues on Illum, questionable class balance, and performance issues, find the appropriate thread and complain away, but  when what you're complaining about isn't any sort of issue with the game and is simply a personal preference, you're simply whining when you profess them over and over again.  I'm sorry the game didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but for a lot of us, the story-based gameplay suites our tastes just fine.

I don't have much time but I want to respond to this:

"Free-roam games don't provide the same sort of entertainment as a storybased game. "

I 100% disagree with you although they're both just opinions.

Story-based games are linear and hold your hand through the content. It tells you where to go and when and you can't deviate from the story. In a sense, you're just playing a movie.

For me, that is just plain boring. If I want to watch a movie, I'll rent one. If I want to be told what to do, where, and when, I'll go down to the local government agency building.

Nah, no thanks. I like freedom in games. I like to create my own story and watch others live theirs. I don't need to be spoon-fed my destiny that comes attached to handcuffs. That's not entertaintment, that's being a slave to the game and the story they want you to endure.

You can keep your Skinner box, I'll take one with sand that comes with entrances and exits instead of dead ends. 

Originally posted by Zekiah

I don't have much time but I want to respond to this:

"Free-roam games don't provide the same sort of entertainment as a storybased game. "

I 100% disagree with you although they're both just opinions.

Story-based games are linear and hold your hand through the content. It tells you where to go and when and you can't deviate from the story. In a sense, you're just playing a movie.

For me, that is just plain boring. If I want to watch a movie, I'll rent one. If I want to be told what to do, where, and when, I'll go down to the local government agency building.

Nah, no thanks. I like freedom in games. I like to create my own story and watch others live theirs. I don't need to be spoon-fed my destiny that comes attached to handcuffs. That's not entertaintment, that's being a slave to the game and the story they want you to endure.

You can keep your Skinner box, I'll take one with sand that comes with entrances and exits instead of dead ends. 

You're still unable to comprehend that different doesn't always equal better or worse, and I'm going to go back through this thread and take a liquor shot every time I see the word "Skinner Box" in one of your posts.

Originally posted by Games888

every mmo does this when they are desperate for sub they will go out of their lore, warhammer did the samething with, daoc did the samething.

The mmo second only to WoW is desperate for subs, eh?

Since the next mmo has, oh about a million less subs than SWTOR, how desperate do you calculate they are?

To Teala,

How would you feel if your  bounty hunter went through an epic quest line in which she/he obtained force sensativity and subsequently learned force choke? A la Luke having next to no power in IV and slowly learning it over two more movies? I don't know.... if the farmboy class can become force sensative, I guess I'm ok with a bounty hunter too.

I guess it boils down to implementation. Implemented well, it will rock. If not, it is sarcrilige.

I could care less if it breaks the lore or not.  I'm annoyed that they are PvE only abilites, just like there are some abilites that only work on weak and standard mobs.  It's just stupid IMO.  I was actually kind of excited about the Legacy system only to find out this info on the abilites, and the fact that you won't unlock any currently unplayable races.  

The only thing that looks promising to me is the WZ (from what little I have seen), and the UI changes.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Teala

For instance a Bounty Hunter will be able to unlock Force Choke.  

Why would they do this?   Doesn't this totally go against lore?  Nope.

well you remember Leia right?  Princess Leia?  Well her class in Star Wars RPG is Diplomat, she sure has a lot of force powers however.

There are many many instances in star wars where people use abilities that aren't within their "class"

Luke uses a blaster in episode 4, yet hes a jedi?

When you roll a character in Star Wars RPG you can determan if they are "force sensitive" and ANY CLASS can be force sensitive.  That means you can slowly build and add some force abilities to that character as it knows some stuff about the force.

Look at Mara Jade, shes a pirate, yet she becomes a very powerful force user and Luke's Wife.

This is VERY Cannon.

Ok - cool.  It just seems that it is wweird that a Bounty Hunter one day just bam...has force powers.  

well it wouldn't be "one day" I mean technically if there was a story to back it up he'd have slowly gained them through training just like a jedi.

There are A LOT of non jedi / sith force sensitives in the Star wars universe, not everyone who uses the force has a light saber

After reading this I feel no need to read anything else in this thread, should have stopped right here, as this exhange  (laughing-man) is spot on.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Why does everythread around here get derailed from a serious topic like the OP's question about lore (which was thoroughly answered on the first page) into a hundred posts of "This game sucks!" or "this game is awesome"


Get it together people.

I'd like to know that as well, I got the answer I was looking for on the first 2 pages.   Which was answered very well by a couple of posters.   :)  I think it is awesome that Bioware is actually trying to do something to give players more options to create unique characters.  I am still going to hold off playing though until I see how the new WZ's work out and what they have planned to add more depth to the game.  I'd love to see deeper space combat and more open world PvP.

It definitely does not go against lore.  It doesn't seem hard to believe that not everyone who can sense or manipulate that force will be strong enough to become a Jedi.  They may just learn a single ability, or several small ones.  Kind of like a "wilder" in Wheel of Time.

Also, from the Q&A, regarding using heroic abilities in PVP

"

• Q: How will Heroic abilities affect open-world PvP?
• A: It will make it interesting, open-world PvP is more like the wild, wild west."

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by dubyahite
Why does everythread around here get derailed from a serious topic like the OP's question about lore (which was thoroughly answered on the first page) into a hundred posts of "This game sucks!" or "this game is awesome"


Get it together people.

I'd like to know that as well, I got the answer I was looking for on the first 2 pages.   Which was answered very well by a couple of posters.   :)  I think it is awesome that Bioware is actually trying to do something to give players more options to create unique characters.  I am still going to hold off playing though until I see how the new WZ's work out and what they have planned to add more depth to the game.  I'd love to see deeper space combat and more open world PvP.

I'm having a blast in the game, but I'd also like to see deeper space combat and more open world PvP.  Space combat as it now stands is an awesome minigame, and it's more fun than I would dare to admit face-to-face.  The world PvP in Illum can be an absolute riot, but that's generally not the case.

One would think it's a bit early for Bioware to start self-destorying the game, but nowadays things go so quickly in MMOs lol.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Zekiah

I don't have much time but I want to respond to this:

"Free-roam games don't provide the same sort of entertainment as a storybased game. "

I 100% disagree with you although they're both just opinions.

Story-based games are linear and hold your hand through the content. It tells you where to go and when and you can't deviate from the story. In a sense, you're just playing a movie.

For me, that is just plain boring. If I want to watch a movie, I'll rent one. If I want to be told what to do, where, and when, I'll go down to the local government agency building.

Nah, no thanks. I like freedom in games. I like to create my own story and watch others live theirs. I don't need to be spoon-fed my destiny that comes attached to handcuffs. That's not entertaintment, that's being a slave to the game and the story they want you to endure.

You can keep your Skinner box, I'll take one with sand that comes with entrances and exits instead of dead ends. 

You're still unable to comprehend that different doesn't always equal better or worse, and I'm going to go back through this thread and take a liquor shot every time I see the word "Skinner Box" in one of your posts.

Different is ALWAYS better or worse for someone.

Don't drink too much.

Sounds a bit gimmicky, but then again what isn't a gimmick these days with MMORPGs. I guess if people like it then good for them (and BW).

Originally posted by Zaltark

"If everyone is special, no one is special"

Isn't that a quote from the Incredibles?

The best thing, ideally, Bio could do is buy the 'Rift' engine and start all over with a totally different philosophy and approach. This approach would focus on actual game design, rather than their own bottle-necked, constrained paradigm.

What the mmo desperate needed was a MASSIVE injection of FREEDOM and CHOICE, and ideally,  a total redesign of graphics -- getting rid of the cartoony look and going with 100% realism (Rift as a model). Frankly the mmo is so badly designed, from engine to game philosophy, it doesn't really matter what they do, imo.

Originally posted by Teala

I have been following the discussions of the guild summit and they talked about changes and additions that will be coming to patch 1.2 in April.  One of them is that with the Legacy System you'll be able to unlock force users skills on non-force user classes.

For instance a Bounty Hunter will be able to unlock Force Choke.  

Why would they do this?   Doesn't this totally go against lore?   Bioware was all ready playing lose with the lore, but isn't this going a little over the top.  Also, if they do this, what will Force Users get?   Will they get the ability to use blasters?

For someone like me that has yet decide if they are going to play the game someday, this is not helping to put me into the mood of doing so.   So what does everyone else think about this?

So you've been trashig the game all this time, yet you have NEVER played it? Interesting...

Originally posted by Zekiah

SWTOR forces you to be the "hero", 100% of the gamers are forced to be "heros".

If the game forces you to be the hero and 100% of the gamers are heros, it's logical to think that everyone in the game is also the hero. Thinking otherwise defies the mechanics of the game.

But whatever, it's kind of a silly hypothetical argument anyways. The game forces all players to be "heros" for each chosen class and therefore are just like everyone else. You CAN NOT choose NOT to be a "hero" if so desired.

If you want to believe that you're somehow more special than the next "hero" standing next to you, that's your choice, I'm just stating the obvious game mechanics.

I've played the imperial agent class to 50, completing the class story. I felt once heroic in the whole class story, I got to do something that felt like any agent realistically looking could not pull off (realism in computer fantasy games lol). Most of the time I felt like I was an agent on a mission, and only a few people in the whole galaxy even knows that I exist. I dont feel special standing next to another agent, which is good since I dont want to feel heroic or special compared to him, to me he is just another agent on a mission.

I've played sith warrior to around 40, and I dont feel heroic on that class either. The difference is that a lot of people knows about me now, but they mostly fear the status of my character unless they are higher on the sith hierarchy. I dont feel heroic when I'm force chocking some fool imperial major in a dialog scene, I feel like I'm just a sith, perhaps above average, nothing godlike (especially when I fail to solo some miniboss champion...). That's how it's supposed to be when you are a sith?

I have trooper alt, not that far into the game, but I feel like I'm a commando trooper only doing my duty, what I'm ordered to do, there could be thousands others just like me across the galaxy doing their own missions. In fact, when I see another trooper he looks like anybody, not like some common guard grunt, but not some godlike Arnie, not to me at least, and that is a good thing.

I'm guessing that's how it's supposed to be, at least that's how it is to me, and I wouldnt have it any other way. I dont want to feel like the center of the galaxy, or I dont want to feel like nobody, and to me this game quite well, story wise, delivers the middle road, above average just the right way.

Is it one of the Jedi classes that makes you feel like some over the top hero, or a cloned hero among thousands?

There's also the possibility that heroism is somehow clearer theme to you hence making everything that moves feel like cloned heroes more easily, personally I havent felt very heroic in the game or the other players around me, more like someone who is doing what they are supposed to do, I never really even think that the others are actually doing the same storylines as I am, maybe that's the key feeling unique even if not heroic.

@OP, sorry that I joined the derail fest, but as you stated the answer/info regarding the original post is already on couple of the first pages!

Originally posted by Acidon

 

So today I was walking around my couch and stubbed my toe *hard*.  I started to sit back, intending to sit on the floor for a minute and ended up landing against the corner of a table in the middle of my back. 

Well the table jerked wildly, knocking the lamp over.  The lightbulb in the lamp broke and scared the crap out of my cat. 

The cat ran straight for the bar to my left and tried to climb up part of a towel hanging over and ended up pulling it down, which caused the big ass bible on top of it to come down and land right on my head.

 

So i was like, "this is crazy shit!"  I'm hurt all over,  got bible thumped and my toe still hurts 3 hours later.

 

I think it's because I didn't go to church last Sunday.  Or any day for the last 25 to 30 years.  Dunno.

Anyway, i thought that was relevant to the discussion.

 

 

Did all of this happen to anyone else today?

I think this was the most informative post in this whole thread.

It just all made sense after I read this. =)

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Teala

I have been following the discussions of the guild summit and they talked about changes and additions that will be coming to patch 1.2 in April.  One of them is that with the Legacy System you'll be able to unlock force users skills on non-force user classes.

For instance a Bounty Hunter will be able to unlock Force Choke.  

Why would they do this?   Doesn't this totally go against lore?   Bioware was all ready playing lose with the lore, but isn't this going a little over the top.  Also, if they do this, what will Force Users get?   Will they get the ability to use blasters?

For someone like me that has yet decide if they are going to play the game someday, this is not helping to put me into the mood of doing so.   So what does everyone else think about this?

So you've been trashig the game all this time, yet you have NEVER played it? Interesting...

Didnt she also write a review or such about the game and gave it something like 5/10. Kinda funny from someone who has yet to decide if they are going to play the game, oh well, nothing new around here.