GW2 gets rid of "stand in one spot spamming attacks and rely on someone else to keep me alive" style of game play. In doing so, group content and encounters are no longer designed to accomodate "Tank, spank and heal", but can be much more dynamic and a lot less predictable.

It's not that the new paradigm doesn't require people to work together. It's that it requires people to actively work together and properly adapt to an evolving tactical situation, rather than just following a static routine that requires little thought and much repetition.

A number of players are going to discover they aren't very good at cooperative, on the fly game play. Even more are going to be frustrated to find that their old tactics just don't work with this game. People willing to think, work and learn will eventually find group content in GW2 very rewarding. Others will blame the game for being too hard and will go back to playing WoW or some other status quo title; or just limit themselves to the more forgiving world PVE environment.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Wow OP, your rationale towards those that did heal in those other games is rather questionable to put it nicely. I'm sure with that attitude you must have been wonderful to be in a group with.

This made no specific point at any specific rationale?  the fact that an officer ruined everyones game play and leaders chose to do nothing about it because that officer forced everyone to tolerate their inadiquate playing? or the fact that when we were part of a group with good healers it made things incredibly easier?

What attitude?? or are you just pulling argument out of your ass to start something out of nothing?

maybe you didn't understand my rational at all? or even my reasoning but I assure you I'm a hoot to raid / game with and those who join my groups usually have the time of their lifes.. On the other hand I'm incredibly intolerant of self centered / self entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences and refuse to do anything about it.

I gave specific experiences and did not roll EVERY healer into those rolls.. no need to have needless argument just for the sake of arguing something because it simply can be argued.  are there other healers? yes. can you argue the point about other professions? yes does it matter in context to this? not really but what ever.

actually if you read it in context I described two different yet connected experiences and the bad experience being specific healers and not once did I clump EVERY healer into any category.  But its difficult to read in context for most people especially when its a wall o text.

Originally posted by phigety

This made no specific point at any specific rationale?  the fact that an officer ruined everyones game play and leaders chose to do nothing about it because that officer forced everyone to tolerate their inadiquate playing? or the fact that when we were part of a group with good healers it made things incredibly easier?

What attitude?? or are you just pulling argument out of your ass to start something out of nothing?

maybe you didn't understand my rational at all? or even my reasoning but I assure you I'm a hoot to raid / game with and those who join my groups usually have the time of their lifes.. On the other hand I'm incredibly intolerant of self centered / self entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences and refuse to do anything about it.

 

I gave specific experiences and did not roll EVERY healer into those rolls.. no need to have needless argument just for the sake of arguing something because it simply can be argued.  are there other healers? yes. can you argue the point about other professions? yes does it matter in context to this? not really but what ever.

Like Tazlor said already your OP was pretty much across the board not about specifics. Regardless your intention that is how it read to me and I somehow doubt I'm the only one.

Jesus, you sure are defensive.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Jesus, you sure are defensive.

Yes I get "defensive" when someone tries to "put it nicely" when they are really coming across like a passive agressive jerk.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Wow OP, your rationale towards those that did heal in those other games is rather questionable to put it nicely. I'm sure with that attitude you must have been wonderful to be in a group with.

my OP was 1 explination of bad experience with specific healers, 2 explination of good experience with good healers, 3 explination of why I'm happy nobody is forced into a solo roll.

Most good players I dealt with didn't like being stuck in a only healing roll, even though they were good at it.  So bad all around bad when done with bad players, Good players made the bad look worse annnnnd Good players usually wanted to do other jobs from time to time. now put that in context with GW2 and everyone is happy :D nobody forced to only be a healer, tank, dps for entire fight.

Originally posted by phigety

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Wow OP, your rationale towards those that did heal in those other games is rather questionable to put it nicely. I'm sure with that attitude you must have been wonderful to be in a group with.

This made no specific point at any specific rationale?  the fact that an officer ruined everyones game play and leaders chose to do nothing about it because that officer forced everyone to tolerate their inadiquate playing? or the fact that when we were part of a group with good healers it made things incredibly easier?

What attitude?? or are you just pulling argument out of your ass to start something out of nothing?

maybe you didn't understand my rational at all? or even my reasoning but I assure you I'm a hoot to raid / game with and those who join my groups usually have the time of their lifes.. On the other hand I'm incredibly intolerant of self centered / self entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences and refuse to do anything about it.

 

I gave specific experiences and did not roll EVERY healer into those rolls.. no need to have needless argument just for the sake of arguing something because it simply can be argued.  are there other healers? yes. can you argue the point about other professions? yes does it matter in context to this? not really but what ever.

Ok, well, to a healer your post reads like this:

Why we shouldn't have dedicated healers

1. Healers have crappy computers

2. Healers are universally allowed to suck by guild officers

3. Healers refuse to contribute anything but heals

4. Healers are over opinionated

5. Good healers make it too easy

6. Bad healers make it too hard

7. Healers are 'hold my hand' type players

Now do you see why your rationale is questionable?

This is bias, prejudice and insulting to some of us who love playing a dedicated healer class. You actually didn't define anything about what makes the 'class' un-needed, instead you listed a whole series of things bashing the type of person who chooses to play a healer. This isn't a list of healer problems. It is a list of your prejudices.

And you absolutely did roll all healers into one category. You consistanly and repeatedly refer to 'healers' being a certain way, not 'this one guy in my guild'. And even if that's what you meant, does this make sense? "Because of this one guy, I am glad all healers are gone".

But maybe you are entitled to a game with no dedicated healers. I mean, sure, you are ruining the experience for the 10% to 20% of the mmo population who choose this class, but at least you can have the experience you want.

Me? I'm fairly intolerent of self-entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences.

I'll help make it simple by quoting my OP:

"My latest experience with Healers was in RIFT when we relied on healers for raids."

I explained SPECIFIC people not everyone who ever played the class and specific experiences.

now if you or anyone else took offense that some people made a bad experience for many others including myself makes no sense to me seeing how I didn't generalise anything in my experiences excluding the specific names of the people who did what I explained.

I'm baffled at how many people are reading this out of context and or have never experienced this yet was a major problem in many MMO's including WoW, Rift, Allods, hell nearly every MMO to date.  Yes there have been incredible people who have played HEALER rolls but for the most part when people wanted the cake walk job they chose that as a profession no need to argue with a well known fact. thats just silly.

Originally posted by Zorgo You actually didn't define anything about what makes the 'class' un-needed, instead you listed a whole series of things bashing the type of person who chooses to play a healer. This isn't a list of healer problems. It is a list of your prejudices.

 

No I did not list anything about what makes the class un needed because that is not what I wrote about at all not in the title nor in anything I said Healers are needed infact EVERYONE will need to heal in GW2... so donno what you are getting after there.

my post was about my experiences as of late and why I'm happy there is no specific healer :D just a lot longer and explained in detail which seems to have confused you and made you go "NEGATIVE NEGATIVE NEGATIVE" = he hates healers... no I dont'.

I hate bad players who play solo healing only and make everyone deal with it.

you are right this is not a list of healer problems... it is not my prejudices as you have describ ed iteither though but it is a list of my prejudices of why I am happy there will not a dedicated healer.  I honestly have nothing against good healers who do a good job at the specific roll infact I did lay out how that was so in the OP but you must have skipped that part.

I'm going to assume this is what people arguing about since I didn't read any of the posts..

Yes there is no dedicated healer class however it's already been said that you will benifit from taking on a role in a party.. which can change each party or even each fight. But it is important to have a dedicated healer (not class) just in your party because.

Imagine if someone was low on health. Everyone else in the party would cast a heal on that person thus the majority of them just wasted mana/energy and time that could be fighting the mob.

Originally posted by phigety

Originally posted by Zorgo You actually didn't define anything about what makes the 'class' un-needed, instead you listed a whole series of things bashing the type of person who chooses to play a healer. This isn't a list of healer problems. It is a list of your prejudices.

 

No I did not list anything about what makes the class un needed because that is not what I wrote about at all not in the title nor in anything I said Healers are needed infact EVERYONE will need to heal in GW2... so donno what you are getting after there.

 

my post was about my experiences as of late and why I'm happy there is no specific healer :D just a lot longer and explained in detail which seems to have confused you and made you go "NEGATIVE NEGATIVE NEGATIVE" = he hates healers... no I dont'.

I hate bad players who play solo healing only and make everyone deal with it.

 

you are right this is not a list of healer problems... it is not my prejudices either though but it is a list of my prejudices of why I am happy there will not a dedicated healer.  I honestly have nothing against good healers who do a good job at the specific roll infact I did lay out how that was so in the OP but you must have skipped that part.

 

 

First, I edited my post to be even more of a smart ass..../wink.

Second I just have to point out:

It is not my prejudices, but it is a list of my prejudices.....

Touche!

Originally posted by drakaena
You are using rift as an example of a healer role being hand held? Aren't dps rotations macro'd into 2 or 3 buttons... that's hardly skill. I've played all roles in most major MMO's, and it which role requires more attentiveness varies from fight to fight. Some are more healer intensive, dps, ranking, etc...

I didn't say or use RIFT as an example of healers role being hand held at all.

I agree that dps rotations as you described = no skill.

I too have played every roll needed in the trinity quite successfully in large scale groups /  raids in nearly any game which has been on the market in the last 10+ years.

I also agree that to make a good group the mechanics can very as you described.

soooo??? ya bad player playing bad = makes me really happy that GW2 has no dedicated healer class, dedicated tank class or dedicated dps class.  but for this specific thread I chose HEALER.  I can easily make one for every class as you described but I don't like to argue just to see myself type just because I can because its possible because it might connect slightly with what the OP is about.... so annoying!

Originally posted by phigety

Yes I get "defensive" when someone tries to "put it nicely" when they are really coming across like a passive agressive jerk.

Lol...you really have no room to talk.

Anyways, you can be baffled all you want but there is a reason several people have mentioned your OP and taken it apparently what you consider to be out of context. It does not read the way you apparently intended it to. So not a surprise some would be irritated by it.

guess OP never played a healer?

As a healer you have to do so much more. First of all you have to predict what is going to happen in a fight. Secondly you have to react to what is really happening. Furthermore you have to pay attention to your own location. You have to watch the location of others (as dps is most likely to stand in AOE, because they do not want to loose too much damage done, DPS-meters!!!). Then you have to look out for the health of the entire group/raid, and not limit yourself to the maintank (or your group). Usually we have to remove curses, diseases, etc aswell. Oh and we have to keep in mind we do not have unlimited mana. We have to manage that aswell. Oh and we have to make decisions all the time. Should I throw a big heal on the tank or a fast hot on the backstabber first?

So what does DPS have to do? In most games the only think you have to do is pop your cooldowns and that's it. Okay you have to move out of the aoe, but hey finishing that combo is no problem, because you will get healed. Trust me I have played as DPS aswell and I was happy I was on interupting-duty. But still I only had to watch one boss and wait for his casting bar to popup. Dps has it so much easier. One target and if you have the correct hotbar you only have to press 1 to 9 and repeat that over and over and over, till you can claim your loot. The first decision a dpser has to make in a boss fight is how much DKP he is going to bid for that vanity-pet. (sorry a little sarcasm)

And if you have really did endgame raids, wasn't the healers who could tell what went wrong? They see the HP-bars drop. They see who wasn't moving in time. In all games I have played, the healers usually came up with the tactics for every new fight.

I'm not claiming  healers are the kings in every game. Still healing is offering a lot of players more excitement and more challenge than any other class/profession. I would guess most healers will pick up support roles in GW2. Support roles are the new healers, because the devs need something to spice up the fights. With only dps, GW2 will be a beat 'um-game.

Finally I do not want to disrespect dps-ers. A good dps-er can make any fight so much easier. (not to mention in pvp) Still that goes for every class. Downside from the trinity is that you need all 3 to work together and do it good. I agree on that.

I don't understand how some people think a lack of dedicated roles will somehow make people not bad.  You can't stop bad people from playing games, they're paying customers just like you.

Originally posted by Majinash

I don't understand how some people think a lack of dedicated roles will somehow make people not bad.  You can't stop bad people from playing games, they're paying customers just like you.

you are absolutely correct this will not keep bad players away buuuuut it will let us decide who we take based on the player not the dedicated class.

no more waiting around in que for a dedicated healer hoping he's not what I described specifically but now you can pick someone from ANY profession because EVERYONE has an active roll so if you find someone in your group who isn't pulling their weight you now do not have to force yourself to just deal with it no you can replace that person with ANY other player with any other profession :D  makes me super happy.

so no more dealing with bad tanks / bad dps / bad healer / BAD PLAYERS you can take anyone sooo maybe in the long run people will have to start either learning how to play better or be better attitude people because we can now be pickier on who we take with us.

Originally posted by Tazlor

Originally posted by phigety

Originally posted by Tazlor

So the person keeping the entire group alive has no merit? What?

When that person who is supposed to focus on keeping the entire group alive has to face his / her character in a corner and can't avoid circles of death and can't move to heal anyone no they don't have merit and they are worthless in a raid.  And the simple fact that just because they were an officer in the guild they felt they deserved the right to be there which punished EVERYONE involved... no they do not have merit to be there especially since them being there caused 19 other people to suffer.

You made it sound like you were refering to healers as a whole. Seems to me like you had a bad experience with a healer during a raid and now you're just taking it out on ALL healers.

That's exactly what I took away from his post above as well.

looks like I need to edit OP and put a smplified version so people will stop misreading this...

Originally posted by phigety

Originally posted by Majinash

I don't understand how some people think a lack of dedicated roles will somehow make people not bad.  You can't stop bad people from playing games, they're paying customers just like you.

you are absolutely correct this will not keep bad players away buuuuut it will let us decide who we take based on the player not the dedicated class.

 

Just like how your guild decided to take the terrible healers over decent people because they were officers.  Nothing changes about this with GW2.  I can't find the logical jump you are taking to think that this will stop that situation from happening again, thus my post.

Originally posted by phigety

I didn't say or use RIFT as an example of healers role being hand held at all.

 

I agree that dps rotations as you described = no skill.

 

I too have played every roll needed in the trinity quite successfully in large scale groups /  raids in nearly any game which has been on the market in the last 10+ years.

 

I also agree that to make a good group the mechanics can very as you described.

 

soooo??? ya bad player playing bad = makes me really happy that GW2 has no dedicated healer class, dedicated tank class or dedicated dps class.  but for this specific thread I chose HEALER.  I can easily make one for every class as you described but I don't like to argue just to see myself type just because I can because its possible because it might connect slightly with what the OP is about.... so annoying!

This is an area on a typical basis where guilds have served a major purpose. Your mileage may vary of course. but  the same goes for many who will play GW2, bad players will still exist, many will still be stuck with them, if not more so in GW2 due to the mechanics it has. SKill will be a factor and more so than gear or stats. This is bound to facilitate more bad players than good actually, especially in comparison to typical trinity games.