Originally posted by thekid1

I haven't watched that many videos and I'm curious how it will work in a group without a tank.

 

In any mmorpg the tank gets aggro and the creature focusses on him while he gets healed.

How does a GW2 creature decide who to attack (aggro)?

What is the dynamic of a group versus creature regarding aggro? Does the creature attack everybody and people need to dodge? Can you get aggro by a certain attack? Do you take turns getting aggro? Do creatures do more ranged attack you can dodge more easily? etc.

Proximity is a big factor, but there is also incoming damage and target preference, which means they may choose a target because they are furthest away, because their profession or for some other unknown factor.  What it comes down to is playing odds.  You can have a pretty good idea of what a mob will do under a given circumstance, but you can't count on it and you can't taunt them back on course.  You just need to react by dodging, CCing or focus firing.

This is the kind of thing that made GW1's combat exciting.  Mobs were somewhat unpredictable and you needed to be paying attention to what they were doing, otherwise that monster tangling with your warrior in front of you, is suddenly behind you chasing your monk hither and yon.

Originally posted by forest-nl

It realy seems you getting nowhere even trying to be a TANK-HEALER or DPS.

If we believe this guy it will be imposible.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/holy-crap/

The reality is that no profession will be able to spec to the point that they alone can keep another player on their feet if that other player is taking all of the incoming damage.  Additionally, no profession will be able to spec to the point that they are able to absorb all of the incoming damage, even with the support of healing specced player, and they will never be able to guarantee that mobs won't run loose even after getting their initial attention.

The mechanics of combat and the enemy AI makes the trinity impossible.

I'd bet on a group of five Thieves who know their profession and work as a team, over ANY group set up as a trinity.  Trinity groups are born to fail and they will.

Rejoice!

Originally posted by jesusdiamond

I believe that GW2 will be more about CC, interupts and buffing/debuffing in regards to dungeon's than T/H/D standard.

 

Its all about preventing to take damage while still doing damage....   I just hope that the trinnity doesn't get replaced by some forms of kiting, as i really disliked Kiting in other games.

Holy Trinity type mmo's dungeons are tank and spank, while GW2 dungeons are learn and adapt. Instead of relying on the healing to carry people through, everyone has to carry their own wait.

I prefer the combat of D2 or GW2 in this case over traditional MMO combat anyday.

D2 is still alive and kicking without the need of dedicated healers.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Shroom_Mage
Having a "dedicated" healer will probably help, but if that player is trying to focus exclusively on healing and is ignoring most of his weapon skills and not dealing significant damage, then yeah, it's not going to work out.

Tanking, on the other hand... That will never work, and without a tank, having a healer carries much less meaning.

That's what ultimately can break trinity teams down. If Anet makes the small tweak of getting rid of the "aggro" concept it all falls appart.

Exactly, we've gone over this I don't know how many times.

You can't have the trinity in GW2 because you can't control aggro.  No aggro control...no trinity combat.

Trinity combat is not something that "just happens" naturally in any game.  The game has to be specifically designed for it to work.

Why would you even want to try doing the content as a holy trinity built group?  The point of the new prof. and combat systems are to get everyone involved in every job so that the gameplay does NOT become static.

My play style lends itself to this type of setup.  I love having to move constantly instead of standing in one place for a 30 minute boss fight. 

Just watching a couple of the beta dungeon vids gets me really excited because through one of the vids there are not very many mobs to fight but you have to constantly get out of the way of traps that are set in the dungeon.  This type of enviroment is much better that just walking down a pristine hallway to the 6 mobs waiting at the door you ahve to go through. 

I belive this type of constanly moving and active gameplay will make the experience feel that much more emersive.

Originally posted by frogtown

What I worry about is that classes that are good at buffing and debuffing will become the next "healer". Meaning that people will feel that certain classes will be required in order to do harder level content.

I want a game where it doesn't matter what class you play, as long as you work together you can run the content.

Every profession can provide an variety of buffs and debuffs.  While some professions have more options for this, you can spec any profession into a support heavy role.  I believe everyone gets several supportive traits, more than enough support utilities to fill the bar, a group oriented heal, a weapon set / toolkit / attunement geared more towards support, and a support oriented elite skill.

Though I personally think taking a variety of professions will be far more effective than the examples of 5 elementalists for instance just because different professions tend to be better at different support or control roles (like healing, damage mitigation, applying vulnerablity, condition removal, etc.) and it's probably better to have as much of a mix as possible, but I don't think you'll be spending all your time looking for say a Guardian or Elementalist because you HAVE to fill that slot with that profession or you won't succeed.

Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?

Originally posted by Kaocan

Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?

Everquest, except back then the holy trinity was not "tank, heal, damage", it specifically referred to the Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter classes, aka, tank, healer, crowd control.

Originally posted by sirphobos

Originally posted by Kaocan

Just curious, anyone here know which game the Holy Trinity first showed itself in?

Everquest, except back then the holy trinity was not "tank, heal, damage", it specifically referred to the Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter classes, aka, tank, healer, crowd control.

Thanks, been looking but couldn't find it. Much appreciated.

Originally posted by Shroom_Mage
Having a "dedicated" healer will probably help, but if that player is trying to focus exclusively on healing and is ignoring most of his weapon skills and not dealing significant damage, then yeah, it's not going to work out.

Tanking, on the other hand... That will never work, and without a tank, having a healer carries much less meaning.

I'm surprised that you don't know that there aren't any 'dedicated' healers. In fact, from what I've seen, the Warrior has as much healing potential as the Guardian. Note that I'm saying healing specifically. Where the Guardian differs from the Warrior is that the Guardian has more crowd control (the Warrior even has condition protection).

This is why they're saying that things are different, and this is what I don't think a lot of people are easily managing to wrap their heads around. And your post is proof of that. It will be based around a loose trinity, but not the holy trinity of prior games. And someone trying to be a 'dedicated healer' instead of contributing with condition protection, damage protection, and crowd control is going to screw over the group.

The design of the game isn't 'soak up damage and let the healer take care of it.' This is what you're not getting. The design of the game is stop the damage before it happens. That's a completely different concept. How do you do this? You stop conditions before they become serious, you use shields to halt damage, you control your foes so that they're not as capable of damaging the correct targets (or any targets).

It's a more strategic and tactical approach. You can't just faceroll and believe that the healer will take care of it all, because you'll die. Simple as that. If you see that a mob is about to release a storm of damage and conditions, and you don't put your shield up as a Warrior (if you have one), and you just keep slashing away, then you have done something wrong, not the healer. That's where this differs.

In a rigid trinity system, it's the role of one type of person to do one type of thing.

In a loose trinity system like the one in Guild Wars 2 (a system I'm innately familiar with, because Champions Online has a very similar system), everyone can do these things. If you're a DPS Warrior who doesn't use his shield because you believe that everything should be down to the tank, then you're a bit of an idiot. If you have a war banner with you as a DPS Warrior, but you don't drop it because you think the water-attuned Elementalist will take care of everything, then you're a bit of an idiot there, too.

See how this works?

In a loose trinity, there's very little differentiation between the classes. Rather than W does X, and Y does Z, and that's that, it's more that W can do X and Z, and Y can do X and Z. Though just because W may be slightly better at X than Y is, it doesn't mean that Y shouldn't be doing it too, because that'll bring about the doom of your group. Now, if you're still with me and you're getting this, let me move onto something else they've said.

You could complete a dungeon with a team of just Warriors, or just Elementalists, or just Engineers.

Think about that.

This is because all classes can help to prevent damage before it occurs. The thing is is that it's a difference between a proactive system and a reactive one. In a reactive system, you just wait until you're half dead, then the healer starts spamming heals on you. That won't work in this game. It doesn't work in Champions Online. It's a proactive system. You need to stop that damage before it hits you. You need to raise your shield, or stand next to someone who has their shield raised.

So no, a dedicated healer won't make things easier. In fact, it would actually make things more difficult. And again, I say this as someone who's familiar with a loose trinity system that has a proactive rather than reactive combat system. If you're not locking down your enemies, and you're letting your enemies half kill you, then you're doing it wrong.

Nice post Dream_Chaser. You make a lot of really good points.

I would argue, though (and I hope this isn't confusing anyone),  that the game doesn't really even have a 'loose' trinity. This is part of the problem some people are having with this game. They are trying to force this game's mechanics into the nice little trinity boxed mindset. And, it just doesn't fit very well. Square in a round hole.

Why I say this, is because there really aren't just 3 roles in GW2's combat. You have damage, you have healing support, you have damage mitigation (which you could lump into healing support), you have control, you have movement (ie mesmer portals / curtains, thieve's infiltration arrow), and you also have the whole conditions / boons meta-game that kinda is a hybrid of damage in support just in itself.

The combat revolves more around class / skill synergy and player skill than anything else. For example, you could have a necro doing support, heals, and damage all at the same time. However, that wouldn't necessarily mean you're team would win the fight.

The ways in which each class deals w/ these mechanics is key. You could have 2 guardians who are specced for heavy support, but one could be better at deflecting projectiles while the other could be better at using boons / blocking enemy movement.

- I'm glad you put it into a perspective the trinity mindset can understand, though, as I really think this is one of those games where you have to actually play it to get a decent understanding of how it works.

Dungeons will require more group coordination; not ADD friendly but oh well; hopefully the devs won't change dungeon mechanics just  to please the WoW crowd; players expecting to chill standing on the back and spamming abilities and expecting to down a boss without any effort will have a  surprise. No more blaming the tank or healer cuz the DPS kids wanted to pull everything and out DPS everyone. I have my vent/teamspeak ready to join my group and /ignore General QQ chat.

love playing a healer, so maybe that makes me a defender of the trinity. as long as i can play a healer in this i'll give it a go. Not too much to ask really is it? 

To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.

Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.

@aesperus

That's what I was trying to explain, albeit not too successfully.

Champions Online is the same, and I was coining the term 'loose trinity' to help people try to understand that it doesn't work that way. I'm trying to take what they know, and bridge it over to what they're new to. Like I said, I'm extremely familiar with this system, but trying to explain it to someone who's never used a system like this?

ffffff

It's not going to be easy.

Originally posted by Yamota

To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.

Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.

You haven't read a thing, have you?

Because, of course, to make the point I've made before that seems to make people actually engage their thinking boxes...

Team Fortress 2 is a holy trinity game.

Ultima Online is a holy trinity game.

EvE is a holy trinity game.

Guild Wars 2 is a holy trinity game.

Peggle is a holy trinity game.

The only problem here is that none of the above is true.

If you read back a bit, you'll find out why.

Originally posted by JudgeUK

love playing a healer, so maybe that makes me a defender of the trinity. as long as i can play a healer in this i'll give it a go. Not too much to ask really is it? 

Every person has to take one healing spell, which is an area of effect.

Every person can take a few more healing spells, which are area of effect.

Friendlies cannot be directly targeted with healing spells.

Everyone is a healer. Everyone isn't a healer.

What does that mean? No dedicated healers. I'm trying to express this... but it's just not getting through.

Don't believe the hype.