ok!one thing that is always constant be it f2p or p2p or b2p!it is grind!some do it at end game(wow)some do it at early level(guild wars)and some do it all the way throu your leveling(lineage2)

live with it!right!ok

for those that have played all tree style of grinding,wich is most acceptable iN THE LONG TERM.

is it better the wow guild wars or the upfront way of lineage 2?

Some MMORPGs have been exploring ways to make grinds have less of an impact in seperating players from eachother. This is mainly within the PvP area of MMOs, but it might soon expand into the PvE side of things. If they can solve that issue I don't think what method of grinding MMORPGs use will really matter.

Guild Wars has grinding?  That's news to me.  Well, if the tiny bit of leveling in Guild Wars is too much for you, then try Puzzle Pirates.

If a form of grind is acceptable, it's not grind.

The definition of grind is "excessive repetition". This implies the subjective opinion of what's "excessive".

you want to see grind, try games like haven and hearth where you litterally spend months just leveling 1-2 skill stats before you can do anything. 

or play one of the many asian pure grinders that take 24hrs solid before you gain 1 level at mid range (mid range in a typical 50 cap game being around lv 20-25s)

frankly i dont mind grinding in a game. as long as the payout for the grind is worth it, or the grind is well hidden behind enjoyable aspects. 

like leveling a fishing skill  you grind the XP while fishing.. but you get enjoyment from the actual fishing making the horrible long grind worth it in the end.  that would be acceptable grinding... 

horrible grind would be having to kill a level 1 monster for 1XP for a year to get 1 level and that being the only way to level.. that grind would not be acceptable..

games require grinding to slow the player base down to allow for the annoying content updates. without a grind players will get max cap in 24hrs and have nothing to do, there by no reason to play the game. 

its like playing minecraft in creative mode.. all you do is build as every game block is accessable to you.. (while some enjoy that most find just playing creative boring and no challange)

Originally posted by Axehilt

If a form of grind is acceptable, it's not grind.

The definition of grind is "excessive repetition". This implies the subjective opinion of what's "excessive".

However, it wouldn't be surprising if the majority of the human beings physiologically react in a manner such that we can emperically know when a majority thinks  something is being too repetitive. Let's be clear, that even though something is subjective, it does not automatically mean that a majority will have significantly different opinions.

Also, just because one may feel that a form of grind is acceptable, it may very will still remain a grind. One can feel that one is participating in something they have done many times and has become monotonous to them, but they can still feel that a such grind is justified since they will get rewards after enduring that pain.

Originally posted by Ichmen

you want to see grind, try games like haven and hearth where you litterally spend months just leveling 1-2 skill stats before you can do anything. 

That's a completely wrong picture of Haven & Hearth. While you may not be competitive or be able to fight the toughest opponents and craft the most advanced goods without months of work, it doesn't mean that there is nothing to do in the game until that happens.

Crafting less advanced items, building up your home, exploring the world are all things you can do from the start. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

If a form of grind is acceptable, it's not grind.

The definition of grind is "excessive repetition". This implies the subjective opinion of what's "excessive".

Trying to create a solid definition for grinding is dangerous waters, my friend. Everyone seems to define it a little differently, and what they find to be "grindy". It's a term that has certain implications, but isn't rigidly defined. Kind of like the whole sandbox vs themepark thing. When either is uttered, people get an idea, but those terms completely break down when analyzed too much.

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Axehilt

If a form of grind is acceptable, it's not grind.

The definition of grind is "excessive repetition". This implies the subjective opinion of what's "excessive".

However, it wouldn't be surprising if the majority of the human beings physiologically react in a manner such that we can emperically know when a majority thinks  something is being too repetitive. Let's be clear, that even though something is subjective, it does not automatically mean that a majority will have significantly different opinions.

 Also, just because one may feel that a form of grind is acceptable, it may very will still remain a grind. One can feel that one is participating in something they have done many times and has become monotonous to them, but they can still feel that a such grind is justified since they will get rewards after enduring that pain.

Yeah I definitely agree we can research that sort of thing, although to nitpick it would be researching how much repetition is acceptable, not how much grind is acceptable. 

As for "acceptable grinds", they just don't exist.  It's never called a grind until it becomes excessive.

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Originally posted by Quizzical
Guild Wars has grinding?  That's news to me.  Well, if the tiny bit of leveling in Guild Wars is too much for you, then try Puzzle Pirates.

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Are you guys playing the same games I am?   Because It's been years since I felt any grind.   These causal boring solo fest are so grind they basicly just give you free loot and levels for killing a couple things.

Edit:  And no I don't think grindless MMOs are a good thing.   It's so much more rewarding to get something you worked for, then get off an npc for doing fedex quest 87.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Guild Wars has grinding?  That's news to me.  Well, if the tiny bit of leveling in Guild Wars is too much for you, then try Puzzle Pirates.

Again, it depends on how you define "grind".  I thought the GW PvP arenas (or whatever they're called) got repetitive and boring after a couple weeks.  To continue doing them I would also consider a grind.

Good way to have less feeling of a grind is IMHO having an interesting combat system where you have to always think about what button to press next.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Guild Wars has grinding?  That's news to me.  Well, if the tiny bit of leveling in Guild Wars is too much for you, then try Puzzle Pirates.

GW have plenty of grinding, just not while you level up.

I still need many points to fill up my HOM, if that isn´t grind I don't know what is. But unlike most MMOs didn't GW force you to grind, it is something you only do for a title.

THINK what button to press next !wow!we hadnt had to do that in a while!

To answer the OP's quest on where I would like my grind to be, I prefer it to be during leveling, because at least I kow I'm grinding towards something. Usually when I hit endgame I just roll an alt and do it again or unsub. Since I'm not a raider by the time I hit endgame I have advanced as far as I am going to (experience and equipmentment wise).

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Axehilt

If a form of grind is acceptable, it's not grind.

The definition of grind is "excessive repetition". This implies the subjective opinion of what's "excessive".

However, it wouldn't be surprising if the majority of the human beings physiologically react in a manner such that we can emperically know when a majority thinks  something is being too repetitive. Let's be clear, that even though something is subjective, it does not automatically mean that a majority will have significantly different opinions.

hardly so, the grind definition is ever decreasing over time 

10 years ago people would have a blast camping world bosses for months, figthing for every inch of the terrain for a microscopical chance at getting something out of it, only to lose their spot to some other guild minutes before  the boss finally spawned...

they didnt even know that the word "grind" meant and if you explained it to them they would be quick to assure you what they were doing thas definetly NOT a grind...they were having a great time

nowadays the average gamer will burst out in tears and make tons upon tons of  nerdrage-filled posts in the forums if a game developer has the nerve to deny him the uberleet weapon they want after the 10th short, instanced, idiot-proof dungeon run

rest assured, as days goes by, the time it takes to call something a "grind" is directly proportional to the loss of IQ among MMO gamers

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Quizzical

Guild Wars has grinding?  That's news to me.  Well, if the tiny bit of leveling in Guild Wars is too much for you, then try Puzzle Pirates.

GW have plenty of grinding, just not while you level up.

I still need many points to fill up my HOM, if that isn´t grind I don't know what is. But unlike most MMOs didn't GW force you to grind, it is something you only do for a title.

The difference is that some games make you do the really repetitive stuff in order to be strong enough to proceed.  Guild Wars basically offers titles that don't do anything.

If a game has a counter of how many mobs you've killed, and it maxes at 1 million but doesn't actually do anything, does that make the game really grindy?  If you don't want to rush to 1 million mobs killed, you can just ignore the counter.

Originally posted by Sagasaint

hardly so, the grind definition is ever decreasing over time 

 10 years ago people would have a blast camping world bosses for months, figthing for every inch of the terrain for a microscopical chance at getting something out of it, only to lose their spot to some other guild minutes before  the boss finally spawned...

they didnt even know that the word "grind" meant and if you explained it to them they would be quick to assure you what they were doing thas definetly NOT a grind...they were having a great time

 nowadays the average gamer will burst out in tears and make tons upon tons of  nerdrage-filled posts in the forums if a game developer has the nerve to deny him the uberleet weapon they want after the 10th short, instanced, idiot-proof dungeon run

 rest assured, as days goes by, the time it takes to call something a "grind" is directly proportional to the loss of IQ among MMO gamers

10 years ago, many gamers rejected early MMORPGs primarily due to the grind.

I sure did.  Back then most games just showed you a good fun time without grind.  Then MMORPGs come along.  And that's when you started hearing the terms timesink and grind for the first time.