It seems to me that many things are put into an MMO for sake of a gold sink. There are a lot of questionable features that use this argument to back it. I disagree with that philosophy. If the only justification for an idea is that it's a gold sink, then it needs to be scrapped, or rethought.

Yes, games need gold sinks, by why make people feel punished by them? I don't think that they need to come into play right at the start of the game. See most features like that affect everyone, when, really, they don't need to. Gold sinks are in place to keep the economy from getting out of whack. But when you think about it, it's not the poor players that are throwing the economy off; it's the rich players. So, the idea that people need to get nickel and dimed their entire experience is flawed. Here are some of my ideas to help the system.

1. Make the player feel like they are getting something. Things that cost money should be niceties. You shouldn't feel forced into parting with yout gold. I never cared things like gear repair or an auction charge. Granted, they weren't usually huge expenses, but I always felt kind of slighted.

2. They should be luxurious. You know how in older RPGs parts of the game were kind of a struggle until you unlocked something special that made a certain aspect of the game more convenient. But not having gone through those initial trails wouldn't have made you appreciate the item as much, so it was all the sweeter when you got it.

3. They should be expensive and meaningful. The enconomy only gets damaged when there becomes an excess of money, so give people an outlet for that excess. You shouldn't have to spend essential money for mandetory stuff, just for the sake of a gold sink. Rather, it should be reserved for those whom have that surplus of money. Possibly even have the options as tangible as extra character slots or something. There should be an effort to keep these things designed more for people that have been playing a while. I know, many would like a lot of character slots right away, but I think extra slots are still more usuful to people that have been in the game for a long time, and are more likely in need of them.

Some games, like Rift, have chosen to take the focus off of exchangeable currencies all together. However, that really takes away from, in my opinion, one of the more interesting aspects of an MMO. Playing the market is a gameplay feature all on its own. We're definitely seeing some attempts at new idea in this genre, but this aspect doesn't seem to be evolving.

Originally posted by blognorg

It seems to me that many things are put into an MMO for sake of a gold sink. There are a lot of questionable features that use this argument to back it. I disagree with that philosophy. If the only justification for an idea is that it's a gold sink, then it needs to be scrapped, or rethought.

A gold sink is only a gold sink if it's something the players want to use. If it isn't a feature or function of interest ot the players, it goes unused ot creates discontent, the latter often affecting retention.  In that light, when a developer creates a gold sink, it's almost always based on player intersts or player behaviour.

Gold sinks are the inevitable result of horrible economic design in themeparks. Also, ironically many gold sinks, like mounts add to the possible gold per minute of a player, ironically shooting themselves in the foot.

Having to buy character slots with in-game money is a terrible idea.  That means that to get more slots, you need to be higher level, as in most games, you get money dramatically faster at higher levels.  People who need more slots tend not to get higher level, because they split time between more characters.  So that would create a substantial negative correlation between needing more slot and being able to get more.

Well, either that, or it would create needlessly strong incentives for people to buy gold from gold farmers.  After all, the gold farmers are higher level, so they can farm the gold needed for character slots much faster.  I don't think that going out of your way to encourage people to buy stuff from gold farmers will be good for the economy.

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Funding your adventure is an important part of the adventure itself. Removing it would just take away one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Removing gold from an MMO would just be removing one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

The problem isn't have gold, its how monsters can spawn an unlimited amount of gold and NPCs can also. In coop or single player RPGs players aren't a big enough deal to screw with the economy as they do in themeparks. Money was never intended to spew from an endless faucet of wealth like mmo monster killing.

I've never really felt a gold sink in a game....we'll not purposely put there by a game, the community for the most part creates it.  People are greedy, set high prices for items...making what the game creaters drop rates of gold seem pretty much useless.  I think if anything, theres more of a gear time sink in games.....I find once your around max level in most games, money comes easy.  I think F2P games there may be an even higher extreme in these situation, because they want you to grind more for cash and gear...but hey, thats how they get u to pay for those "F2P' games right?

Originally posted by Quizzical

Having to buy character slots with in-game money is a terrible idea.  That means that to get more slots, you need to be higher level, as in most games, you get money dramatically faster at higher levels.  People who need more slots tend not to get higher level, because they split time between more characters.  So that would create a substantial negative correlation between needing more slot and being able to get more.

Well, either that, or it would create needlessly strong incentives for people to buy gold from gold farmers.  After all, the gold farmers are higher level, so they can farm the gold needed for character slots much faster.  I don't think that going out of your way to encourage people to buy stuff from gold farmers will be good for the economy.

Perhaps, but wasn't really my point. My argment was that something like more slots is more usful, in general, to people that have been playing a while, versus those whom are just starting. For the most part that's true. There are always going be encentives to buy from a farmer when gold is important in a game. It's the duty of the developer and the players to try and keep them out. It's even worse in games like Ragnarok Online, where you can just buy any item that people are selling. Having a lot of money in that game was very beneficial. I actually like that kind of economy, but it did get ruined by bots and gold farmers. If gold farmers is your concern, then perhaps stick to games like Rift, where gold doesn't really matter all that much.

Also, how old are you?

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Removing gold from an MMO would just be removing one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

The problem isn't have gold, its how monsters can spawn an unlimited amount of gold and NPCs can also. In coop or single player RPGs players aren't a big enough deal to screw with the economy as they do in themeparks. Money was never intended to spew from an endless faucet of wealth like mmo monster killing.

No one says rabbits, boars, and other non-intelligent creatures have to drop straight currency. I always thought this was a pretty piss-poor design to be honest. They could still drop valuable items like hides or bones that crafters may purchase, or procure on their own to make goods they can sell to others. But they cant sell a thing if others have no currency to buy it from them

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Funding your adventure is an important part of the adventure itself. Removing it would just take away one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

Wow, you've managed to take this argument to a whole level of random. Nice.

First off, how does changing thr gold sinks imply going to a barter economy? Secondly, how is this "dumbing down" the genere? Lastly, how the hell did you work your way to taking games down to one stat? 

Your entire rant is the equivalent to having a have a cup of coffee with someone in a cafe, then suddenly throwing yourself through the window.

OP, you are wrong.  They are about sinking gold, that is all. 

Originally posted by waynejr2

OP, you are wrong.  They are about sinking gold, that is all. 

I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by waynejr2

OP, you are wrong.  They are about sinking gold, that is all. 

I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

What you are trying to do is to turn a gold sink into yet another player reward.  It's as if you are spending your badges to purchase gear and expecting to get badges for doing so.  

Too much gold in the system causes mudflation and has been a known factor since the days of muds in the 1980s.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by waynejr2

OP, you are wrong.  They are about sinking gold, that is all. 

I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind explaining?

What you are trying to do is to turn a gold sink into yet another player reward.  It's as if you are spending your badges to purchase gear and expecting to get badges for doing so.  

 

Too much gold in the system causes mudflation and has been a known factor since the days of muds in the 1980s.

Right. Too much gold is bad; that's why gold sinks are there. I'm just talking about changing them. They would still serve the same purpose... just more rewarding, I guess you could say. Is you argument that my idea wouldn't actually function as a gold sink? If so, why not? By definition, a gold sink is simply some way to jettison money from the sytem, which is essentially the same as what I'm suggesting.

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Funding your adventure is an important part of the adventure itself. Removing it would just take away one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

Wow, you've managed to take this argument to a whole level of random. Nice.

 

First off, how does changing thr gold sinks imply going to a barter economy? Secondly, how is this "dumbing down" the genere? Lastly, how the hell did you work your way to taking games down to one stat? 

 

Your entire rant is the equivalent to having a have a cup of coffee with someone in a cafe, then suddenly throwing yourself through the window.

You mentioned gold being useless except for non-useful, fluff-only items. This means anything useful, such as player-crafted or treasure hunted items would have to be bartered instead of bought, lest they be deemed completely without worth unless the person who originally obtained them can use them. This essentially destroys economy and instead replaces it with a dumbed down bartering system.

The one stat comment I made is in reference to how many MMOs have been dumbed down enough already by making only one stat important to any given class. Games like Rift and SWTOR use simplified stat systems like this. Wisdom for a Cleric in RIFT, for example, increases their spell power, melee damage, mana regeneration, magic crit rate, physical crit rate, and max MP...every ability a cleric would ever use. Aim, in SWTOR is similarly the first and last stat a Bounty Hunter would ever need.

Gold sinks are a solution to a problem created through poor game design.  The vast majority of mmorpg's do not have real economies.  In these games a player makes lots of gold from nothing, but never loses any of his/her acquired gear or money.  When they have better gear than crafters make, crafters become useless.  When people have better gear than monsters drop, there is never a need to buy that monster dropped gear.  The gold sink simulates a real economy by deleting gold that would otherwise never disappear stopping inflation from running rampant. 

A superior game design would be one where equipment is destroyed or looted, causing a player to need to purchase new gear.  A system like this would create a vibrant economy with no need for gold sinks.  When a player only gains and never loses then you don't have an economy, you have this fake inflation prone welfare state system and the only solution is to find a way to take some of that gold out.   

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

This just sounds like a virtual version of the whole "lets get rid of currency and return to a bartering system" delusion. There's nothing wrong with gold. Nothing wrong with being able to buy useful things. Funding your adventure is an important part of the adventure itself. Removing it would just take away one more activity to keep people interested in the game.

What you're suggesting is nothing more than an even further dumbing down of the genre than what we've already been given over the last few years. First combat was simplified, then travel, then crafting, then community, then stats (really, what is up with this "every class needs only one stat" BS?), now you want to criple economy? No thank you.

Wow, you've managed to take this argument to a whole level of random. Nice.

 

First off, how does changing thr gold sinks imply going to a barter economy? Secondly, how is this "dumbing down" the genere? Lastly, how the hell did you work your way to taking games down to one stat? 

 

Your entire rant is the equivalent to having a have a cup of coffee with someone in a cafe, then suddenly throwing yourself through the window.

You mentioned gold being useless except for non-useful, fluff-only items. This means anything useful, such as player-crafted or treasure hunted items would have to be bartered instead of bought, lest they be deemed completely without worth unless the person who originally obtained them can use them. This essentially destroys economy and instead replaces it with a dumbed down bartering system.

The one stat comment I made is in reference to how many MMOs have been dumbed down enough already by making only one stat important to any given class. Games like Rift and SWTOR use simplified stat systems like this. Wisdom for a Cleric in RIFT, for example, increases their spell power, melee damage, mana regeneration, magic crit rate, physical crit rate, and max MP...every ability a cleric would ever use. Aim, in SWTOR is similarly the first and last stat a Bounty Hunter would ever need.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that those are the ONLY things that gold should be spent on. I mean, it should still be useful in a functioning economy. I'm just saying replace the gold sinks; you know, things like respec, armor repair and auction house fees with something more fun.

Originally posted by sullivanj69

Gold sinks are a solution to a problem created through poor game design.  The vast majority of mmorpg's do not have real economies.  In these games a player makes lots of gold from nothing, but never loses any of his/her acquired gear or money.  When they have better gear than crafters make, crafters become useless.  When people have better gear than monsters drop, there is never a need to buy that monster dropped gear.  The gold sink simulates a real economy by deleting gold that would otherwise never disappear stopping inflation from running rampant. 

A superior game design would be one where equipment is destroyed or looted, causing a player to need to purchase new gear.  A system like this would create a vibrant economy with no need for gold sinks.  When a player only gains and never loses then you don't have an economy, you have this fake inflation prone welfare state system and the only solution is to find a way to take some of that gold out.   

I agree, for the most part. However, there would still be need for some kind of gold sink. Let's say, for instance, that you buy a piece of armor from a crafter. It breaks, so you need to buy another one. Well, that money isn't simply disappearing from the system (unless the crafter needs to give money to an NPC to make the armor, which would actually be a gold sink, itself). That money would still be in circulation, inflating the economy. Pretty much every design needs some kind of gold sink if it uses currency. If the game is producing gold, then there needs be some way to get rid of it, instead of just circulating it.

Originally posted by sullivanj69

A superior game design would be one where equipment is destroyed or looted, causing a player to need to purchase new gear.  A system like this would create a vibrant economy with no need for gold sinks.  When a player only gains and never loses then you don't have an economy, you have this fake inflation prone welfare state system and the only solution is to find a way to take some of that gold out.   

Then losing and having to replace the gear would be the gold sink.

Personally I think that in theme-park design gold sinks shouldn't really be needed. The devs should just make everything worthwhile bind on pickup, and let players who don't spend their gold gather insane amounts of gold.

The best gold sink is to nerf merchants.  In my opinion, the ingame economies of most games are too fluid - it's simply too easy to trade and it means power gamers, gold sellers and bots are too empowered.  I think many game economies would be more fun if there was a limited radius of buy/sell orders within your social network and a limited rate at which you could trade.

(I've never felt overloaded with gold in any MMO where I avoided selling into a broken market)