I agree with the sentiment here. I think the relatively small number of people making these complaints are what is left of the original MMO-ers. There wasn't all that many of us in the beginning. I actually feel sorry in a way for the "wow generation" mmo players that have only played games like that (SWTOR etc). While some of these games are good in their own right, they completely lack the freedom and promise of a "virtual world" that the old games had. 

I maintain that in "vision", not necessarily execution, that early SWG was the best MMO ever conceived. Even with its faults, I had a blast in that game. No MMO has been released in the past 8 years that has me looking forward to logging in like the old school ones did. Its a shame really. I don't think its going to change though...

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Yamota

But I do agree with Teala. There is certainly room for both ThemeParks, for more casual people, and sandbox for the one's that are more into virtual worlds. Problem is that sandbox has been considered a failure, by investers/producers. so almost all money is funneled into creating and endless stream of ThemeParks and that is a problem.

Of coures sandbox are considered failures. Even the less successful themeparks like Rift, Aion and TOR generates MUCH larger box sales than the most successful sandbox (Eve). And aside from Eve, all the other efforts are small and insignificant.

 

you do not have to buy EVE to play it - which accounts for the lack of box sales. Of course for the greed element in the producing of games that would never do, never.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

Beg to differ.  I see it on many sites, hear it in many game shops I go to looking for games. Just seems not that many because they are outwhined by the new schoolers. Again...too many new schoolers who are selfish and have ADD that are fine to have the "Look! I am a hero and special!" single player MMO that just "happens to have" other players roaming it too. But community is nearly extinct in them...which is what made them worth playing for years on top of the free to roam, open world gameplay...that also no longer exists since you are funneled everywhere with dots and ?/!'s.

1) games do not have to be played for years.

2) I don't miss the open world gameplay at all. It is MUCH better to have a well designed dungeon and go in with 5 others, than an empty open world with little to do.

 

Well then play one of those and don't complain about someone liking something different. THIS is what is wrong with this genre. Too many selfish post-WoW players such as yourself who greedily want all MMORPG's to cater to you. Sounds like your looking for console gameplay...where you can have your fast ADD filled fun and be done with it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DogPeeTree

No sci fi games,space, u can count em on both hands.Only dragons,elf,swords,and dragons and orcs and wolfs,and shit all medevil shit,Really  there is not enough color in the janras to choose from.Woud love to see minecraft still mmoo not pixel,blocked but to go outside u kil get hungry make ur house settle in,afraid to go outside on dark etc.But we see only  fails like Starwars pop up made up its popularity cause its name and fanbase nothink else.

 

Uh?

TOR, STO, Eve, COH, DC Universe, ....

 

And thats it.Eve is cool iv tryed force to play it myself but fall asleep couple of times,Dc universe is so limitless and only survival  are its expansions.Guess somethink Freelancer like devs to think outside fuckin WoW/EQ box and stop making cliche mmos.There is mmo comin out this year Otherland ,really liked how its new and different than all the shit its coming out/came out.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Yamota

But I do agree with Teala. There is certainly room for both ThemeParks, for more casual people, and sandbox for the one's that are more into virtual worlds. Problem is that sandbox has been considered a failure, by investers/producers. so almost all money is funneled into creating and endless stream of ThemeParks and that is a problem.

Of coures sandbox are considered failures. Even the less successful themeparks like Rift, Aion and TOR generates MUCH larger box sales than the most successful sandbox (Eve). And aside from Eve, all the other efforts are small and insignificant.

 

If FPS games would generate more box sales than an RTS game then RTS games would be considered failures?

Ofcourse not because the target audience is different and in the case of sandbox vs themeparks the audience of the latter is far greater but they are so different from each other that the target audience is different and it is certainly possible to create a successful sandbox. Eve is the best example of that but heck even Asheron's Call is still alive and kicking, 10 years after its release.

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

It is like a ritual. There has to be one 'MMORPG genre is dying, declining, getting dumber.....'.  every 2 or 3 days. I don't even have anythign original to say anymore..i don't know how you guys do it every day.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

 

He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

 

And how many of those hundreds of new MMOs, aside from WoW and EvE,

-still exist

-aren't in rapid decline

-have had a healthy player base of over 200000 players for more than two years straight?

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

 

It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business. 

@up

All depends what indicators for success / failure you will take into consideration.

If you take number of players / number of games /etc into consideration then mmorpg genre is expanding and progressing.

If you look from virtual world player perspective then genre is declining.

All matter of perspective you look from.

Originally posted by EndDream

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

 

He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.

Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.  Into shallow dead end games.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.  Cool!  This is awesome.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages. This could be expected with the growth of the Internet.  Remember, MMORPG's are a by-product of the Internet.  They grew with the growth of the Internet at about the same pace...until recently - say, 2005.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks  Again  the Internet.
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.  MOBA's are not MMORPG's.  We're talking about a specific part of the genre - not branches of it.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.  Again, the growth of the Internet.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.  WoW brought millions into playing MMO's, because the Internet had grown and because WoW could be played on a McGyvered Calculator.  Since then the genre has seen little growth in the NA and EU markets.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.  I'd say it has stagnated.  Which is what I have been saying.

 

Originally posted by fenistil

@up

 

All depends what indicators for success / failure you will take into consideration.

 

If you take number of players / number of games /etc into consideration then mmorpg genre is expanding and progressing.

 

If you look from virtual world player perspective then genre is declining.

 

 

All matter of perspective you look from.

We are gamers, not businessmen. What perspective were you expecting us to take?

It's like saying war is good, becouse it generates plenty of business for many different companies and that it just depends on the perspective. Go ask the ones with family members dead to bombs.

I know the example is a gross exageration, but it's the very first thing that came to my mind.

I don't expect any other perspective in this forum to be taken but a gamer's one.

Originally posted by alancode

It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business. 

It was always a business, but I do see your point. It seems like it's currently spinnign its wheels and not becoming what some feel it could be. As if it's become just as stagnant as it has become prolific.

Man great read and can agree with alot of this but feel games like Fallenearth are on the exception it has alot of Sandbox feel with thempark setup with questing and total skill based system with lvls it has a sandbox feel and I myself am enjoying it. Archage looks good but with out any info on a US release I will not be looking forward to it till there is one. As for future games here coming out alot are same old same old but GW2 offers atleast something new so does TSW but till we can really play them they dont look like the end all be all games. As for what else is out the on the horizen game FPSMMO's look good like PS2 and Firefall dont like Tribes to much because they haven't stopped the aimbots in it. 

I am still waiting on a game with no quests where the players make there own adventures no instanses or raiding just good old advenutre and or if you want to be a merchant you can or even a fishermen you can. And to this day no sandbox has tried it cause they all have quests of somekind in them guiding you for whatever reason I dont know. But make a game with DCUO combat and skill/power setup games dont need 10 toolbars anymore thats old school. Add huge open world 3 to 4 times larger then WoW open world and make it where you can go anywhere from day one also make it about exploreing and have a sub story in it so people have some lore.

I have been waiting for the day for a company not to be affraid to make a ture open world mmo I myself have writen my on Pen and Paper game over the last 12 yrs writing rewriting the rules till it felt like something I liked so I let a few buddies of mine try it and they siad they wish it was an mmo cause it was just that fun and not hard to pick up and play plus it had everything in it we want in a turely good mmo. One of these days I might just put it out for others to try after I fix a few bugs in it. But it works for what it is a tabletop pen and paper game based on a fastasy setting with really very few limits on what you can be and can do.

So till a company comes out with a ture open world sandbox and not one that gates you by lvl I will continue to wait playing what I feel like and enjoying them for what they are games.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.  Into shallow dead end games.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.  Cool!  This is awesome.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages. This could be expected with the growth of the Internet.  Remember, MMORPG's are a by-product of the Internet.  They grew with the growth of the Internet at about the same pace...until recently - say, 2005.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks  Again  the Internet.
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.  MOBA's are not MMORPG's.  We're talking about a specific part of the genre - not branches of it.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.  Again, the growth of the Internet.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.  WoW brought millions into playing MMO's, because the Internet had grown and because WoW could be played on a McGyvered Calculator.  Since then the genre has seen little growth in the NA and EU markets.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.  I'd say it has stagnated.  Which is what I have been saying.

 

 Teala's right on this it has become stagnated with the same old thing we have been playing sense 2005 and thats the problem no ones willing to step out of the norm and make something truely mindblowing they all want the easy road WoW style win button game with no real depth.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by alancode

It is not declining, its imploading on itself. It is inbreading. Creating clones, and wasting effort on silly things. It is becoming what we all know as the most corrupt thing in the world, a business. 

It was always a business, but I do see your point. It seems like it's currently spinnign its wheels and not becoming what some feel it could be. As if it's become just as stagnant as it has become prolific.

It's become big business akin to say the film industry actually games in general passed the film industry. I disagree that businesses are by there nature corrupt . Look at any big business almost all lack the testicals for risk purhaps because they feel there is too much to lose. Small companies risk and the big boys look for a winner to fund or buy. When money is tight there is less risk  taken. I don't know if or when MMOs will get out of the cycle of safe bets. We aren't exactly economically in the boom times. 

The funny thing is, I think WoW was the turning point, thats not a brilliant observation... I'm sure all of you would agree with this... But even WoW, isn't WoW anymore. Back when I played closed beta and in early release, that game was actually quite fun.

It was far more "railroad" than anything we had seen before, but the PvP servers had a bit of a raw side to them at least from a PvP-perspective. We used to quest with our cameras swung around looking behind us, and most nights would turn into constant PvP fights rather than a "grind" -- that was fun. Even though it didn't matter much, we'd get 2 full raid groups together and attack enemy towns, again that was fun. Then of course they added battlegrounds and rewards which systematically removed all the joy from that game IMHO. Its still a techincally "good" game, but I don't play it anymore...

Anyway this is an endless debate, and unwinnable really. I think I can speak for many "old school" MMO players when I say that the early games had a very raw but real "feel" to them. They really were the promise of an "online world", and you had to actually make something of it for yourself. There was only "nothing to do" in those sandboxes if you yourself had nothing going on inside of your head (I mean that nicely). All of these new ones are console-style entertain me now type games. I think this is a reflection of the times, as this is how most young people are. When I grew up in the 80s, we'd get sent outside on a saturday morning with our bikes and told to be home by dinner. We had to basically use our imaginations to have fun and we'd be out adventuring all the time, so those early games I think were natural for many of us. The games now are quite boring IMHO. 

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by EndDream

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

• The genre has branched out and evolved.
• It has enterd browsers, consoles and mobile devices.
• It has expanded its audience to include a braoder range of ages.
• It has seems a great reduction in the imbalance between male and female players among its ranks
• It has spawned a broader MMO market, opening the doors for the MMOFPS, MMORTS, ActionARPG, MOBAs to gain wider acceptance.
• In 10 years, the number of MMORPGs has risen from less than a dozen to several hundred.
• It has brought millions of new players into online gaming.

 

It's hard to define the state of MMORPGs as decline.

 

He is saying the experience has declined, not the market.

Exactly. For sure there is more money and customers in the MMORPG genre but imo that has not evolved the genre but rather mainstreamed it, trying to cater to as many people as possible and in the process sacrificing that which was the original idea. A persistant, living, breathing world where you are not the center of attention, unless you are very special among the thousands of people playing it.

I'm not sure your version of why MMORPG's were created to be is accurate. The two earliest popular MMO's, that came out nearly at same time, were UO and EQ and they had very different styles-sanbox vs themepark, i guess you could label them-and one style became more popular than the other. It happens. Both styles have stagnated over the years. Are any of the more current sandboxes all that advanced over UO (besides the graphics)-mostly same features. If sandboxes were more popular (money), there would be more made. Themeparks are where the moneys at right now.

Companies don't want to take the risk of making drastic changes, so we get slow change (and I agree many changes are for the worse). Maybe with TSW, GW2, AA coming out with some new ideas it will spur other companies to take some chances.