Originally posted by RefMinor

Most games it is an afterthought and not worth bothering with, collect 6 animal skins, hit make gloves button, to make gloves inferior to loot drops, it's pretty poor.

Most simple crafting mechanics ( as seen in WoW ) are built upon the quest mechanics.  Collect X loot drops, turn in and get Quest reward.  You see how this is the same mechanics used in crafting?  Collect X resources from node, combine and get Cradfted item.  I suspect the exact same game code is used in both questing and crafting.  Just set the crafting time to zero and you got your self a quest, set it to 2 second and your crafting.

The change I am proposing is basing crafting on combat mechanics as well, and not quest mechanics alone.  A Craft Giver ( NPC ) would add the Recipie to your Crafting Log / Tracker.  The solo or grouped crafters woudl travel to where the appropriate Crafting Stations ( mobs ) spawn. Tab Target a Crating Station and begin Crafting ( Combat ).  All mechics of RPG combat would come into play for crafting.  I imagine a Crafting Trinity, Crafting Tallent Trees, 5, 10, 20 & 40 man crafting raids, crafting results based on a loot tables, as well as quality and stats of components.

Do I expect to see Heroic Crafting Ststions spawn side by side with Heroic Boss Mobs?  Do I expect to see crafting zones made in parallel in size and scope to PvE zones.  Do I expect a crafting station to run over and engage a Tank crafting class, or be kited around a crafting zone by a Ranged CPS ( Crafting Per Sec ) class?  I might expect to see a level 70 Ninja take 5k of baking damage or 10K of sewing damge over 20 seconds.  If it takes 1 year to max out a Warior then it should take the same effort and time to Max out a Blacksmith.  If it take a Warrior 3 month of 20 man raiding to put together a 5 peice Epic gear set.  It shoudl take the crafter the same time, effort, and cooperation to put together the same or better 5 piece set.

I haven't spelled out everything, but If you see it in PvE, you will see it in crafting.  Lets all understand crafting is a class, a PvE / PvP class in my proposed system.  I don't expect to see Killer types forgo their typical classes for a PvP Blacksmith.  You will not level a blacksmith in PvP battlegrounds or PvE raids.

I may not have answered all the points in that letter, but what do you think of this as a start?

Originally posted by Konfess

Originally posted by RefMinor

Most games it is an afterthought and not worth bothering with, collect 6 animal skins, hit make gloves button, to make gloves inferior to loot drops, it's pretty poor.

Most simple crafting mechanics ( as seen in WoW ) are built upon the quest mechanics.  Collect X loot drops, turn in and get Quest reward.  You see how this is the same mechanics used in crafting?  Collect X resources from node, combine and get Cradfted item.  I suspect the exact same game code is used in both questing and crafting.  Just set the crafting time to zero and you got your self a quest, set it to 2 second and your crafting.

The change I am proposing is basing crafting on combat mechanics as well, and not quest mechanics alone.  A Craft Giver ( NPC ) would add the Recipie to your Crafting Log / Tracker.  The solo or grouped crafters woudl travel to where the appropriate Crafting Stations ( mobs ) spawn. Tab Target a Crating Station and begin Crafting ( Combat ).  All mechics of RPG combat would come into play for crafting.  I imagine a Crafting Trinity, Crafting Tallent Trees, 5, 10, 20 & 40 man crafting raids, crafting results based on a loot tables, as well as quality and stats of components.

Do I expect to see Heroic Crafting Ststions spawn side by side with Heroic Boss Mobs?  Do I expect to see crafting zones made in parallel in size and scope to PvE zones.  Do I expect a crafting station to run over and engage a Tank crafting class, or be kited around a crafting zone by a Ranged CPS ( Crafting Per Sec ) class?  I might expect to see a level 70 Ninja take 5k of baking damage or 10K of sewing damge over 20 seconds.  If it takes 1 year to max out a Warior then it should take the same effort and time to Max out a Blacksmith.  If it take a Warrior 3 month of 20 man raiding to put together a 5 peice Epic gear set.  It shoudl take the crafter the same time, effort, and cooperation to put together the same or better 5 piece set.

I haven't spelled out everything, but If you see it in PvE, you will see it in crafting.  Lets all understand crafting is a class, a PvE / PvP class in my proposed system.  I don't expect to see Killer types forgo their typical classes for a PvP Blacksmith.  You will not level a blacksmith in PvP battlegrounds or PvE raids.

I may not have answered all the points in that letter, but what do you think of this as a start?

Eh, I don't think you'd have many people wanting to be in a crafting raid... No offense...

Again, most people miss the point here.  The crafting UI don't need a change.  It's the systems behind it that makes crafting meaningful within the game world.  When the best items are obtained by PvP and killing bosses in raids, crafted gear becomes just an afterthought.  Other professions may still be important, but your equippable gear has no meaning if it's not the best in the game.

The whole game must support the idea that crafters are the life blood of the world.  They are the beginning, and end of everything.  This doesn't mean it's farmville, it just means that you have to secure your items from these players.  You can still go kill people, NPCS, or do whatever else you'd like as an adventurer.  You just have to understand that all of these playstyles CAN exist in a game world and that it doesn't have to negatively affect your gameplay. 

A well made crafting system enriches mmo gameplay much like a well made raid or dungeon. People come together to trade, barter, exchange goods that they have made that can benefit other players. Crafting professions making items that other crafting professions need to create goods that every one benefits from. Much like a holy trinity but in a different setting.

This is what is missing from most crafting systems today. Crafting professions consist of bound items that only the crafter can use and buffs/bonuses that only the crafter benefits from. It is 100% self serving and requires no collaboration from anybody else.

Fighters, resource collectors, and crafters lived in a symbiotic ecosystem in FFXIV which I really hope other games imitate. Fighters needed the quality gear from crafters to survive, crafters needed the rare materials from resource collectors to make anything, and resource collectors needed protection from fighters to get the best materials from dangerous areas. My main beef with FFXIV's implementation was that there were way too few resource collection jobs- pretty much only mining, herbalism and fishing- when there should have been things like skinning, drilling, and maybe even demolitions work. Other than that though it was a pretty decent model (though the rest of the game was terrible) and it gave everyone something to do.

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Originally posted by Vryheid
Fighters, resource collectors, and crafters lived in a symbiotic ecosystem in FFXIV which I really hope other games imitate. Fighters needed the quality gear from crafters to survive, crafters needed the rare materials from resource collectors to make anything, and resource collectors needed protection from fighters to get the best materials from dangerous areas. My main beef with FFXIV's implementation was that there were way too few resource collection jobs- pretty much only mining, herbalism and fishing- when there should have been things like skinning, drilling, and maybe even demolitions work. Other than that though it was a pretty decent model (though the rest of the game was terrible) and it gave everyone something to do.

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agreed. I'm looking forward to FFXIV 2.0

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by Konfess

Originally posted by RefMinor

Most games it is an afterthought and not worth bothering with, collect 6 animal skins, hit make gloves button, to make gloves inferior to loot drops, it's pretty poor.

...

I may not have answered all the points in that letter, but what do you think of this as a start?

Eh, I don't think you'd have many people wanting to be in a crafting raid... No offense...

 

Again, most people miss the point here.  The crafting UI don't need a change.  It's the systems behind it that makes crafting meaningful within the game world.  When the best items are obtained by PvP and killing bosses in raids, crafted gear becomes just an afterthought.  Other professions may still be important, but your equippable gear has no meaning if it's not the best in the game.

 

The whole game must support the idea that crafters are the life blood of the world.  They are the beginning, and end of everything.  This doesn't mean it's farmville, it just means that you have to secure your items from these players.  You can still go kill people, NPCS, or do whatever else you'd like as an adventurer.  You just have to understand that all of these playstyles CAN exist in a game world and that it doesn't have to negatively affect your gameplay. 

No Offense taken, well maybe a little.  I am trying to develop a crafting system that full fills the desire for a sole server ultimate crafter ( Named Crafter ).  On my SWG server we had one named crafter for composite armour.  This crafter had collected a large supply of resources and made a factory crafting recipe.  He had acuired a crafting station, stat enhancing crafting gear, and a factory.  So hold this as the ultimate in crafting and other can see it as little differnt than WoW.

What I am trying to describe is a crafting system that is respected and valued by Killer types, and enjoyable and challanging for Socializers ( crafters ).  No crafting UI on par with WoW will ever be respected by the Killer comunity.  If you are a solo crafter don't expect to make something on par with a 40 man raid with a loot table drop rate of 0.01% with a click of a buton.

Do I expect many people to be involved in 40 man crafting raids?  I only expect 40 per 3000 player server.  By "put together the same or better 5 piece set" I addressed the entirty of your post in two words; or better.  I mean that crafting would produce the best possible items in game.  This is not my first time reading this kind of thread.  Lets assume I have been reading these crafting laments since the 80's.  Over the past 30 years when your exact same point is brought up agian and again by different posters using different wording, the counter point has always been the disparity between crafters and combatants in terms of time, effort, and difficulty.

In WoW and most RPGs a max level players can max a crafting profession in a weeks time.  Also the lesson learned from Diablo 1 & 2 is that shiny loot drops excite players to play your game for months and years.  If crafted items are the best in game, then combatants will roll their own crafters to get those items.  Crafting must be made as challanging and time consuming as combat to deter, Killer types away from it and limit the number of Socailizers who master or specialize at it.

Before crafters get up to speed, a game has to employ a mechanic to get items into game.  This is either loot drops, vendors, quest rewards, or fishing ( hee hee ).  These mechanics stay in game becuase if they are removed entirely a segment of the population will moan.

I tried to explain in my first post that crafting is implemenmted by reusing the existing code rather than making task specific code.  There real difference between RPG Crafting and RPG Questing is that the RPG Combat had been disabled.  By re-enabling RPG Combat into RPG Crafting we could find a way to address every point brought up in the "I Want to Bake Bread" post.

I am not spelling out every detail, becasue I live in fear that Enormous Adventures Corp will copyright what I say here or claim they have been working on one or two similar points and therefore claim ownership to any and all similar ideas.

It is DVR time now.  Bye Bye.

Originally posted by DAS1337

 

Again, most people miss the point here.  The crafting UI don't need a change.  It's the systems behind it that makes crafting meaningful within the game world.  When the best items are obtained by PvP and killing bosses in raids, crafted gear becomes just an afterthought.  Other professions may still be important, but your equippable gear has no meaning if it's not the best in the game.

If the only issue is whether craft items are valuable or not, then. Currently, in wow,

- craft gear is almost BIS (best in slot) for 2 slots, except for hard mode raid items, which is done by low single digit percentage of players

- you need a certain item level to quality for the different levels of 5-man dungeon and lfr raid. Many buys craft gear to get to the threshold level

- there are always crafted consumerabes that are mandatory for raids.

The crafting in most of these games lack a great system to get hooked to besides massive quantity of things you can make in most games, but however half of those things that you learned to make are useless cause nobody won't use them unless for special reasons (for example, Disenchating in some games like WoW). This is what I don't like in most crafting system, why add in a recipe in the game if nobody going to use it, and the quest and dungeon gear is more superior then the items that you make? This degrade the usefulness of the crafter itself greatly, making him less useful.

Another game to speak of that also got a nice crafting system is both Everquest 2 and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. Both of these games got a nice crafting system that make it somewhat realistic, dispite how realism never applies in fantasy games (cause it's made up). This crafting system got one thing that other mmo don't have during crafting is complications, where you have to find a way to eliminate these complications or they decrease your success or the durability of your weapon. I like this system because it give you somewhat of a bewarement when crafting so you can't idle at all unlike most mmo which is what I called the "click and wait", which in my opinion, the most boring crafting system. The downside of both of these games is that people get tired of it quick and called it a "mini-game" then it is a proper crafting system. Which in my opinion, yes it does get boring, because every other craft got the same system, i wish they add in more uniqueness to each crafting system so that it's not the same, for example, blacksmithing was a match 3 game, and enchanting is more of a hidden object game, the more points you score within a limited time, the more you make or the better the object that you crafted will be, however again most people may not like this.

It seems that every crafting system in most mmo has it's pros and cons, "great quantities to make, however low resource spawns and it's race to the gathering node/object/mob", "crafting system crafting mode but it's get boring quick and it's annoying", etc etc.

That letter is extremely UO specific.

Thus nobody cares.