There are a lot of threads floating around with people arguing about why the new trait system is bad, or why it's good.

Plenty of people are happy to make their disappointment known, but I see very few people offering suggestions to improve it.

I made this thread for people who aren't happy with the system to offer their ideas on how it can be fixed.

The Main Concerns (in no particular order)

1) Requiring players to return to town in order to reinvest trait points.

Players can switch their slot skills anywhere while out of combat, right? So is it really so different to allow us to respec our trait lines anywhere while out of combat too? After all, traits and skills go hand-in-hand; what purpose does it serve to allow us to swap out our slot skills when many of them will be less compatible with our current trait set-up? This makes the player feel like they will be playing sub-optimally if they switch to any skills that they are not currently traited with - which is counter intuitive to the flexible approach of the skills system.

On top of that, requiring players to return to town is just an unnecessary inconvenience whether playing in a group or solo. Returning to town to repair broken gear makes sense, because it tells a player they're out of their depth, but there is no need to do this for trait points.

2) Combining attribute allocation with trait lines restricts build options.

This concern also relates to the worry some people have that the current trait system promotes the concept of the holy-trinity, which Anet has been trying so hard to avoid.

While I personally don't agree with the holy-trinity part, I do think combining attributes with trait lines restricts builds. I agree that most of the trait lines and their respective stat bonuses compliment each other, but that doesn't change the fact it is still dictating a build or play style For example let's say I'm a Necromancer and I want to be deal good damage, but also have decent minions - do I invest my trait points into Spite, giving me Power, but traits I don't particularly care for? Or do I invest my points into Death Magic, giving me access to minion related traits, but raising my Toughness, which I don't particularly care for?

If attribute allocation and trait lines were separate, I could point attribute points into Power, and trait points into Death Magic, giving me the build I want.

3) Weapon specific traits make the player feel obligated to stick with those weapons.

Quite simply, players will feel like they're playing sub-optimally if they equip and use a weapon they are not currently traited for specialization with. Would a Longbow Ranger really want to equip that Shortbow he just obtained when his Longbow will out-perform it? Perhaps to try out the skills as a quick mess-around, but never as a sensibly viable option.

There are more concerns but these are the big ones... Obviously we need a system which addresses all these concerns.

My Suggestions

1) Separate the attribute allocation and trait system.

Go back to the original method of awarding players with points per level to assign to the attributes of their choosing; Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality, Prowess, Malice, Expertise, Concentration, Compassion and the profession-specific attribute.

This gives players more freedom and allows for another layer of customization, which adds to the excitement of leveling.

2) Move all weapon specific traits to weapon specific trait lines.

These trait lines should be separate from the main trait system and should require no points, rather the players level, to unlock new slots; allowing players to customize their play style with every possible weapon indiscriminately. So for example every 20 levels, the player gets to pick 1 trait for every weapon their profession can wield. These traits for example could give a flat out damage bonus to the weapon, increase the effectiveness of a particular skill associated with that weapon, or grant players certain benefits while wielding that weapon.

Remember, you don't have to restrict the efficiency of certain weapon sets to define and differentiate the play style from one player to the next - it can be done by changing how that profession plays with a particular weapon, not what weapons they are best at using.

3) Revamp the main trait system so that individual lines are associated solely with a particular play style or slot skill type.

Trait points could be given every 5 levels but trait slots would now only require 1 point to unlock (because attribute allocation is no long associated with traits, meaning all points between every fifth interval would be pointless).

For example the Necromancer could have these trait lines:

Spite - Unlocks trigger effect traits (such as casting Spectral Armor at 25% health)

Blood Magic - Unlocks life steal and sacrifice related traits

Curses - Unlocks conditions related traits

Death Magic - Unlocks minion related traits

Soul Reaping - Unlocks Life Force and Death Shroud related traits

A Warrior could have these trait lines:

Conditioning - Unlocks attribute bonus traits

Weapon Mastery - Unlocks offensive trigger effect traits (such as causing the target to bleed on critical hits)

Motivation - Unlocks banner and shout related traits

Discipline - Unlocks adrenaline and burst skill related traits

Tactics - Unlocks weapon swapping, survival and revival related traits

An Elementalist could have these trait lines:

Fire Magic - Unlocks traits would influence your fire magic and attunement bonuses

Water Magic - Unlocks traits which influence your water magic and attunement bonuses

....etc.

As you can see, it isn't too different from the current system, the main differences are that the trait lines are much more specialized and play style specific than before. Every trait in a trait line should belong there, whereas a lot of the traits currently seem to be squashed in where ever possible. Also, there are no longer any weapon related traits in the main trait lines, only traits which influence all weapons, such as trigger effects.

Let's take a look at an example level 20 character using my trait system.

The player has distributed his attribute points like so (on top of base and gear stats):-

3 Malice per level

1 Expertise per level

2 Toughness per level

2 Vitality per level

He has earned 2 trait points and has put 1 into Blood Magic. He has chosen to slot in Bloodthirst, increasing the effectiveness of life steals. The other point was put into Death Magic and the player has chosen Flesh Of The Master, giving his minions +60 health.

Because he has reached level 20 he has also unlocked 1 trait slot for each weapon, and has chosen the following traits:

Daggers - Quickening Thirst (Move faster while wielding a Dagger)

Axe - Axe Training (Extra Damage with Axe skills)

Scepter - Frozen Grasp (Adds a chill effect to your Grasping Dead spell)

And so on... Now, no matter what weapon the player equips, they'll have a touch of personalization to its play style.

4) Allow players to reinvest their attribute and trait points anywhere while out of combat. Give it a reasonable gold fee by all means, to give player decisions a little more sense of permanence, but so long as we can change on the fly, no one will be inconvenienced.
 

Why do I think these changes are an improvement? Players will no longer feel obligated to stick with a particular weapon, players and teams won't be inconvenienced when someone needs to respec... it grants much more build customization and flexibility as well as simplifying the trait system and making the lines and their benefits much more defined.

Please let me know what you think of my suggestions and feel free to submit your own!

Your ideas as written are really bad and will push much harder to min-max types of builds.

The new system is fine.

Originally posted by Volkon

Your ideas as written are really bad and will push much harder to min-max types of builds.

 

The new system is fine.

 To be honest, "The new system is fine" is a really damning thing to say about it.  "Fine" wasn't good enough for the energy system or skill acquisition, ranger pets, the sylvari, norn starter events, or the entire smokestead zone.  If they have the freedom and wherewithal to scrap the entire Smokestead zone after working on it for months, I hope they'll be revisiting traits considering the reaction to it.  I don't just mean the reaction from the initial people raging about fees, but hopefully they've also seen some of the more measured criticism to it.

I don't know if you're right or not about the OP and I might even agree with you regarding his suggestion.  But I do like the idea of this thread.  I appreciate that you like the current system and find that it works well for you, but I don't and we might never agree on that point. 

I don't have time right now to get into it, but sometime in the future I'll look over the OP as well as do my best to condense my personal criticisms and offer a constructive suggestion.  I hope people consider it and I can only hope ArenaNet finds their way back into the discussion as well, though unfortunately it would probably happen at GW2Guru and not here.

I am actually curious to see what types of suggestions people propose. Some of the concerns are valid (about traiting for certain weapons gimping the use of others), however this is a very difficult system to tamper with.

For starters, I wouldn't focus too much on the cost issue (as that's a separate issue entirely) and more on the system itself, how it works within the classes. That seems much more measured & easier to tweak.

The way the skills work in this game, you can't really have weapon specific traits, unless those traits fundamentally change the way the weapon skills actually work. Each weapon is designed to fulfill a specific role, and having traits within that role will get min-maxed so fast, they might as well not bother implementing a system at all.

(For example, if you are a sword wielding warrior, you are going to want traits tied to bleed effects and damage. There will be little to no point in investing into anything else, as the weapon is built around that condition). Same thing w/ a hammer and knockdowns, or a fire ele and burn effects. With each weapon being tied to 5 skills, the attacks are built to function a certain way per weapon. As such, gearing the trait system towards these weapons would be pointless.

Now, for the utlity skills, it absolutely makes sense to have traits that modify / buff these, as they are never set in stone, and you have the most flexibility when it comes to choosing your utility skills. So, if you have a global trait system, you are either going to have to have something that's a balance between the two (as they have now), a system that is incredibly dumbed down (which I don't want), or a system that ignores weapons completely and focuses on stats / utility skills exclusively.

Now, what would be good, is if they had something like in GW1, where you could 'save' different builds, and select them from a dropdown whenever you wanted to modify how your character plays. What would also be good is either reducing or eliminating the cost of build switching, but keeping the requirement to visit an NPC to do it.

Anyway, I don't really have a problem with the current trait system. It seems incredibly well put together, and keep in mind that for most classes you will be switching between 2 weapon sets. I think this system has the greatest detrement on the elementalist / engineer classes, who are generally supposed to be swapping attunements / kits far more often than the other classes (who only really have to switch between 2 loadouts).  If they can figure out a system that evens that gap, then it would be perfect I think.

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Volkon

Your ideas as written are really bad and will push much harder to min-max types of builds.

 

The new system is fine.

 To be honest, "The new system is fine" is a really damning thing to say about it...

I could cut and paste again and again how I like it, how if you look at it from a ground up perspective you can create really flexible, balanced builds, etc. Just didn't feel like it.

How about this then... it's one of the better systems I've seen, adding some real unique and balancing aspects to your skills and weapons. I think they're hitting it out of the park with this new system and look forwards to seeing it implemented with the full twelve major traits per trait line in place.

Honestly I don't have an issue with the system, so much as I have a problem with the current implentation of it. I also have no problems admitting I'm a hardcore min/maxer and just the idea of theorycrafting 5 'trees' instead of the typical 3 does appeal to me. However for a game that seems to want to break away from this mentality of mine i'm not so sure thats a good thing.

I when I mean implentation of it I'm looking at three things really, a) attributes being tied to certain trees and b) the weapon skills c) minors that promote trinity style healing 

The attributes should be something you allocate on your own, this allows one to use this trait tree more freely and would allow for even more custimization, of course I imagine it would be harder to find a balance. But then again they managed with gw1.

Weapon skills should just be removed entirely, yeah there nice if you have the trait and your wielding that weapon but I'm not a fan of weapon specific traits. Switching these to read a flat out bonus to all weapons could be done to a few that wouldn't create balance issues. I am refering to the flat bonus applied to a specif type of weapon, the warrior trait that allows you to move faster while wielding a melee weapon I'm fine with.

For c I'm mostly refering to the engineer invention tree and its first two minors, even though the third one would also promote someone to stack +healing. Why is this here? Even with all these healing buffs there not enough to do any real healing, your not going to be keeping your team alive just by using healing skills, so why have so many healing oriented skills. All there going to end up doing confuse new players into thinking they can be viable healers. And as long as they are still in the game the thought has entered my mind Arenanet has there backup plan if this whole no healers isn't loved by the masses.

These are more quick fixes then a long term solution though and for those that hate the trees it won't help them.

Was thinking of starting a thread like this myself, but thanks for doing it for me. I've posted this idea in variuos forms before in other threads, but I'll give it a bit more detail here.

• Players are free to pick and choose not only what stats they want, but also what traits they will take with them.
• It ensures everyone has a good baseline for each of their stats, keeping ALL builds viable no matter how crazy they may be.
• It allows players who want it the freedom to 'switch roles' out of combat by changing their gear, while having an organic limiting mechanism (i.e. there is only so much gear you can / want to carry). Switching gear should by no means be nessecary (due to baseline stats + assumed general stat increase from gear), but still an option for those who want to be 'optimal'.

• It allows total freedom in mixing and matching minor traits, giving more build options.
• It ensures everyone, no matter the build, has access to the same number of minor traits.
• It opens up the possibility of adding additional minor traits, and the possibility of changing them (for balance etc.), without having to change anything else or force a respec.
• It has a far more organic permanence mechanism; that is old emblems will be lost when overwritten, so choose carefully.
• Small changes will be less costly than drastic ones, so tweaking is easier and encouraged more than total overhauls.

• It allows more freedom in mixing and matching major traits, giving more build options.
• It ensures everyone, no matter the build, has access to the same number of major trait slots.
• It opens up the possibility of adding additional major traits (via quests etc.), and the possibility of changing them (for balance etc.), without having to change anything else or force a respec.
• Like the skill system, it gives everyone access to all the tools they will need to face any challenge, and the freedom to tweek their build 'on the fly' should the need arrise.

Edit: added idea of decoupling major traits from classes

Originally posted by acidblood

Was thinking of starting a thread like this myself, but thanks for doing it for me. I've posted this idea in variuos forms before in other threads, but I'll give it a bit more detail here.

The basic idea is freedom; give players the freedom to actually make the build they want and to play the way they want. The current system DOES NOT DO THIS; stats are tied to traits, traits are tied to each other and prehaps worst of all, different builds can (and will) end up with significantly more / less traits than others. So with that in mind:

 

Leave stat bonuses to gear 

Plain and simple, everyone has a baseline and they specialise their stats by wearing appropriate pieces of gear; want to do more damage, pick gear with +power on it.

 

This offers several advantages over the current system:

• Players are free to pick and choose not only what stats they want, but also what traits they will take with them.
• It ensures everyone has a good baseline for each of their stats, keeping ALL builds viable no matter how crazy they may be.
• It allows players who want it the freedom to 'switch roles' out of combat by changing their gear, while having an organic limiting mechanism (i.e. there is only so much gear you can / want to carry). Switching gear should by no means be nessecary (due to baseline stats + assumed general stat increase from gear), but still an option for those who want to be 'optimal'.

?Have minor traits come from the emblems you put on gear

Each emblem would give you one minor trait, and you are free to mix and match emblems with any piece of gear you like. This decouples minor traits from each other (as well as major traits and stats), giving players much more freedom to choose the ones they actually want. The avaibility of emblems would increase at higher levels so as not to overwhelm new players.

 

Again, this has several advantages over the current system:

• It allows total freedom in mixing and matching minor traits, giving more build options.
• It ensures everyone, no matter the build, has access to the same number of minor traits.
• It opens up the possibility of adding additional minor traits, and the possibility of changing them (for balance etc.), without having to change anything else or force a respec.
• It has a far more organic permanence mechanism; that is old emblems will be lost when overwritten, so choose carefully.
• Small changes will be less costly than drastic ones, so tweaking is easier and encouraged more than total overhauls.

A new major trait given each level, with a major trait slot unlocked every 10 levels

Again, this decouples major traits from each other, from minor traits and from stats, giving players vastly more builds than is currently possible, while still maintaining a measured increase in the options available so as not to overwhelm the player.

 

And again, this has several advantages over the current system:

• It allows more freedom in mixing and matching major traits, give more build options.
• It ensures everyone, no matter the build, has access to the same number of major trait slots.
• It opens up the possibility of adding additional major traits (via quests etc.), and the possibility of changing them (for balance etc.), without having to change anything else or force a respec.
• Like the skill system, it gives everyone access to all the tools they will need to face any challenge, and the freedom to tweek their build 'on the fly' should the need arrise.

?This to me is a much better system than the current one as it is more balanced (higher relative baseline), gives more freedom (can switch gear if you want to take on a different playstyle), allows for vastly more build options with the possibility of adding even more without the need to adjust the system (i.e. add more points per tree / additional trees), and best of all really does let you play the way you want to (not the way some developer decided would be a 'good fit') while still allowing you to be viable no matter the situation (some changing of gear / major traits may be required).

 

Questions, comments?

 

See this was how i was really expecting the trait system to work. Maybe not exactly but the flexibility your system offers is so much better then there current system where your attributes are tied directly to the trees you want. I could get behind a system like this.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Volkon

Your ideas as written are really bad and will push much harder to min-max types of builds.

 

The new system is fine.

 To be honest, "The new system is fine" is a really damning thing to say about it...

I could cut and paste again and again how I like it, how if you look at it from a ground up perspective you can create really flexible, balanced builds, etc. Just didn't feel like it.

 

How about this then... it's one of the better systems I've seen, adding some real unique and balancing aspects to your skills and weapons. I think they're hitting it out of the park with this new system and look forwards to seeing it implemented with the full twelve major traits per trait line in place.

 I do appreciate your opinion.  I hope your voice is heard by ArenaNet just as I hope they hear mine.

While I'm sure you have made or are capable of making other arguments, I do want to point out that just saying that the system works for you isn't an all-encompassing counterargument to criticism.

If my objection was that making a balanced build was impossible or that people can't get the kind of customization that they wanted, then yes, pointing out your success would be right on point.

However, objections go further than that.  To use one of my criticisms as an example, if I am concerned that the trait system is orders of magnitiude more complicated than the skill system, then this is a criticism that isn't addressed by the fact that you personally were able to navigate it with success.

 What it comes down to is that we have to agree to disagree because we are so far apart on this.  You think they've hit it out of the park, I've said I would pay them to change it.  We're not going to agree.  By all means leave critiques of any of these suggestions, or be content to know that if ArenaNet does see this, then they've seen your opinion on the matter.  Either is your prerogative.

there isnt really an "argument" going on. there's ANet's plan, which is solid and informed. and there are whiners' bad ideas.

I would like to point out that at the moment, ArenaNet has stated that players will have a total of 70 trait points available to them by the time they hit the level cap. Disregarding your current worries about attributes (which I find rather unnecessary considering, as any MMO player should know, all your attributes generally are sourced from armor and buffs) my opinions are as follows:

1. If we have 70 points by cap, we will have enough to spec 30 points fully into one of our profession's trait trees, 30 towards another, with 10 more points to allocate into random little things of choice. This means that, considering that generally each tree favors a specific weapon or type of weapon, that if you allocate wisely you will by Level 80 have a trait setup that compliments and enhances both of the weapon sets you have equipped.

2. Sure, some of our traits give us attribute boosts...so what? Let's use WoW as an example here, even though I know what THAT will bring up...

Certain WoW talents gave you a greater attribute boost every point you devoted into that talent. However, note that it was never major. If you were min/maxing, which you'd basically need to in order to be "accepted" as a raider, sure you'd pour your points into those stat-boosters, but it was never a large enough boost to outweight the benefits your ARMOR, WEAPONS, BUFFS and SKILL granted unto you. And as much as I am pained to say, please do not consider Guild Wars 2 the game that will destroy the convention of armor and weapons being a huge part of combat. You are thinking of its' PvP, which looks like a great system that will really be fun and balanced.

However, like all other games, players have to get their stats up some other way than the couple of points every level-up, and that - will - come - from - gear. Undoubtedly. That is just an integral part of all RPG-games. So don't worry about trait attributes: I don't anticipate much bonuses other than a bit of min-max advantage.

3. Structured PvP grants equal armor (respective to classes), free trait respecs for experimentation and freedom, private servers for free choice and game mode modifying, and etc. etc. So don't worry 'bout that either, kay? Kay. :)

I don't think there's much to worry about, traits wise. People are making too much of a big deal out of a system we all say coming.

Originally posted by Zillen

I would like to point out that at the moment, ArenaNet has stated that players will have a total of 70 trait points available to them by the time they hit the level cap. Disregarding your current worries about attributes (which I find rather unnecessary considering, as any MMO player should know, all your attributes generally are sourced from armor and buffs) my opinions are as follows:

1. If we have 70 points by cap, we will have enough to spec 30 points fully into one of our profession's trait trees, 30 towards another, with 10 more points to allocate into random little things of choice. This means that, considering that generally each tree favors a specific weapon or type of weapon, that if you allocate wisely you will by Level 80 have a trait setup that compliments and enhances both of the weapon sets you have equipped.

2. Sure, some of our traits give us attribute boosts...so what? Let's use WoW as an example here, even though I know what THAT will bring up...

Certain WoW talents gave you a greater attribute boost every point you devoted into that talent. However, note that it was never major. If you were min/maxing, which you'd basically need to in order to be "accepted" as a raider, sure you'd pour your points into those stat-boosters, but it was never a large enough boost to outweight the benefits your ARMOR, WEAPONS, BUFFS and SKILL granted unto you. And as much as I am pained to say, please do not consider Guild Wars 2 the game that will destroy the convention of armor and weapons being a huge part of combat. You are thinking of its' PvP, which looks like a great system that will really be fun and balanced.

However, like all other games, players have to get their stats up some other way than the couple of points every level-up, and that - will - come - from - gear. Undoubtedly. That is just an integral part of all RPG-games. So don't worry about trait attributes: I don't anticipate much bonuses other than a bit of min-max advantage.

3. Structured PvP grants equal armor (respective to classes), free trait respecs for experimentation and freedom, private servers for free choice and game mode modifying, and etc. etc. So don't worry 'bout that either, kay? Kay. :)

I don't think there's much to worry about, traits wise. People are making too much of a big deal out of a system we all say coming.

Ok, no offense, but:

1. Going with your 30/30/10 build, over 5 trees that give us a grand total of... 20, Edit: Sorry 10 builds, 12X is same as 21X. Now of course there are going to be more available and viable builds than that, but the system is still very restrictive and doesn't even come close to the total and viable builds a much more freeform system (such as I have outlined above) would give you.

2. I think the key words here are which you'd basically need to in order to be "accepted". This is to be avoided, totally, and without exception if the 'Play Your Way' motto of the current system is to be sollowed; the current system does not, IMO, avoid this issue (mainly due to the linked stat bonuses).

Also, it's not so much about the individual traits, they can be balanced / changed post launch should they be deemed undesirable, the trait system as a whole though cannot, and that is what we are so worried about.

Oh and FYI, unlike 'most' MMOs most of your stats will NOT come from gear. Yes gear will play it's part, but it's not going to be like WoW where 80-90% of your character is gear. I'm not sure what the final values will be, but you can get up to +300 in given stats from trait lines, I think about 800 base at level cap, and mid level gear seems to have about +20-50 to one or two stats on it... so maybe you will get about 30-40% from gear. These are rough figures based on what I have noticed in videos, but either way gear will not have anywhere near 'all your attributes' on it.

Edit: Can we not turn this theard into another 'the trait system is fine, no it's not', but rather stick to posting alternative ideas and / or ways to improve the current system.