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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The simple and obvious genius of scaling players to zones

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80 posts found
  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

3/03/12 8:54:01 PM#61

I dislike  that this thread was made, it generates hate. Course this was "genius" by ANET but why fluant it out there?

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 2:20:44 AM#62

When you are talking about vertical or lateral progression you are talking about your experience throughout the full lifetime of the game i.e at max level.  in GW games the progression is lateral gear sets and skills.  The game has lateral progression, which is well discussed. 

RE Reuse, olderstyle themeparks can only offer meaningful reuse through 'alts' Which is less rpg orientated, you dont get reuse with your avatar you have invested in emotionally, now you are swapping between multiple characters which you are in all probablity less engaged with.

More importantly, RE older RPG's  the very best RPG has reuse - players replay the entire game because they enjoy it  (Planescape, replayed even today for example)  Since then rpg's have developed into more sophisticated and complex virtual worlds.   And that in a nutshell is what downscaling offers, the opportunity to play older content you enjoyed without having to break from your avatar and level up another alt to get the same experience.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  gordiflu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

3/04/12 2:26:28 AM#63
Originally posted by Bladestrom

I am referring to GW2 here and the scaling down of players to match the zone they are entering which will in many ways revitalises the gaming community (brilliant ideas always seem so obvious when you see them) 

The willingness to help was one of the characteristics of older mmorgs, and to a certain degree new mmorgs in the first month (ignoring SWTOR ofc) ,  You have a mass of people all levelling with similar goals.  When humans have similar goals they band together, and so communities flourish.  Unfortunately this dies with modern end-game mmorgs that fails to understand community beyond its rather crude use as a vehicle for grouping people for raids and pvp.  Now, with the ability to scale players to match zones and by implication other players we achieves the same effect, an entire community with common goals where level is irrelevant.

For me this open the door to roleplay finally, I plan to go wandering and simply watch out for things happening and where people are playing, and go join in and help, brilliant.  Even better, I can switch my role to suit the needs of strangers in GW2 (a healer here, dps there, etc)  therefore giving me an opportunity to try new things, win-win in effect.  Thousands of players doing the same thing and suddenly your virtual world and community is alive and vibrant.  10's of thousands of people potentially doing this, I dare imagine!

 

Ever heard of mentoring on games as old as EQ, VG or CO?

Why is GW2 the coming of the new messiah and every concept they talk about like so revolutionary and blah blah, when every single time I am like... "been there, done that, seen it, tried it, same old"?

 

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 2:34:24 AM#64
Originally posted by RizelStar

I dislike  that this thread was made, it generates hate. Course this was "genius" by ANET but why fluant it out there?

 It is all in the eye of the beholder. 

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Superduper69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 376

3/04/12 2:35:39 AM#65
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by RizelStar

I dislike  that this thread was made, it generates hate. Course this was "genius" by ANET but why fluant it out there?

 It is all in the eye of the beholder. 

I don't think you even know what that means. You are using it completely out of context here.

  freston

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/07
Posts: 527

3/04/12 2:41:40 AM#66

Omg. 5 years waiting for this game and now i find out im not going to be able to supercrit bunnies when im 80. I feel so let down. That was end game for me...that and supercritting cows. May i supercrit cows, at least?

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 2:41:59 AM#67
Originally posted by Superduper69
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by RizelStar

I dislike  that this thread was made, it generates hate. Course this was "genius" by ANET but why fluant it out there?

 It is all in the eye of the beholder. 

I don't think you even know what that means. You are using it completely out of context here.

ok, try this, there was no hate in this thread until a few recent posts.  Negative people see negativity.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 2:44:11 AM#68
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by Bladestrom

I am referring to GW2 here and the scaling down of players to match the zone they are entering which will in many ways revitalises the gaming community (brilliant ideas always seem so obvious when you see them) 

The willingness to help was one of the characteristics of older mmorgs, and to a certain degree new mmorgs in the first month (ignoring SWTOR ofc) ,  You have a mass of people all levelling with similar goals.  When humans have similar goals they band together, and so communities flourish.  Unfortunately this dies with modern end-game mmorgs that fails to understand community beyond its rather crude use as a vehicle for grouping people for raids and pvp.  Now, with the ability to scale players to match zones and by implication other players we achieves the same effect, an entire community with common goals where level is irrelevant.

For me this open the door to roleplay finally, I plan to go wandering and simply watch out for things happening and where people are playing, and go join in and help, brilliant.  Even better, I can switch my role to suit the needs of strangers in GW2 (a healer here, dps there, etc)  therefore giving me an opportunity to try new things, win-win in effect.  Thousands of players doing the same thing and suddenly your virtual world and community is alive and vibrant.  10's of thousands of people potentially doing this, I dare imagine!

 

Ever heard of mentoring on games as old as EQ, VG or CO?

Why is GW2 the coming of the new messiah and every concept they talk about like so revolutionary and blah blah, when every single time I am like... "been there, done that, seen it, tried it, same old"?

 

Yes I have, great wasnt it, and great that a new game has learned from those games. 

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  User Deleted
3/04/12 2:54:25 AM#69
Originally posted by BlitzVF

I disagree.  

Community is not just folks working together, it is 'individuals' working together.

If we are all the same, or can transform freely into any role we choose, we lose the concept of 'self'.

Without self, and the persistant challenge of fititng that unique element into a focused team, there is no social investment, or challenge.

In a way, the easier the game makes it to fit in, the looser and more un-resiliant the community becomes.

Community building must be hard or it will last no longer then a wisp of steam on a windy day.

Those who give their loyalty easily, betray equally easily.

-Blitz

just because you can choose the traits and weapons of any role doesn't mean you will be any good at playing that role and thus just because you have many a choice doesn't mean people will all universally choose to do exactly the same thing. People are individuals. Reading the poles you'll find this when asking people what they will be playing and then further asking them what spec, weapon choices they will be playing as any class. More choices does not equal less challenge and there's certainly no limit to challenge in GW2 environment videos thus far.

Now if they take away choice like mmo's on rails or mmo's like WoW and those who follow that pattern you DO lose a sense of self because the individual choice of how you'd like to play your character is completely lost. Everyone expects exactly the same thing in those style games, it's time to leave that behind. 

A community is made by individuals WITH choices, not individuals who all look act and fight the same.

  Requiamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 2054

3/04/12 3:06:51 AM#70

If the system is great, and maybe easier for the developer? maybe (nha it can't be easier really)?


I think they are some better , more realistic and "organic" way to do the same thing. Uo had no level, the entire map was accessible to nay kind of character, no level is needed. Yet you had the easiest mobs still be a real threat to even the veterans players with maxed toons. The ratman fort was a wonderful example where sometime quantity is superior to quality, or the poisoning mechanism in Uo, also is a good example of counter skill which can raise difficulty by a lot, yet keep the same hp pool on a mob... For me most dev just don't realize than difficulty don't always mean more hp...

So ye the scaling is nice in GW2, but yet i just think that system is like having a bulldozer playing with a butterfly, it must be so heavy on the code side and so complicated to tweak and set, yet a bit of game design could have just dealt with that aspect in such a better and more effective manner, and ye more realistic manner too, if that even mean something to people...

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 3:16:14 AM#71
Originally posted by Requiamer

If the system is great, and maybe easier for the developer? maybe (nha it can't be easier really)?


I think they are some better , more realistic and "organic" way to do the same thing. Uo had no level, the entire map was accessible to nay kind of character, no level is needed. Yet you had the easiest mobs still be a real threat to even the veterans players with maxed toons. The ratman fort was a wonderful example where sometime quantity is superior to quality, or the poisoning mechanism in Uo, also is a good example of counter skill which can raise difficulty by a lot, yet keep the same hp pool on a mob... For me most dev just don't realize than difficulty don't always mean more hp...

So ye the scaling is nice in GW2, but yet i just think that system is like having a bulldozer playing with a butterfly, it must be so heavy on the code side and so complicated to tweak and set, yet a bit of game design could have just dealt with that aspect in such a better and more effective manner, and ye more realistic manner too, if that even mean something to people...

  It really depends on how good the developers are.  A good code base can be extremely diverse and complex, but can be modelled out into a highly cohesive and decoupled system.  Bad systems can be the opposite and are generally bug ridden and hard to evolve.   Only time will tell with the beta on that one.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1341

3/04/12 3:59:37 AM#72

I always like the old school MMORPGs and the first month of an MMORPGs life + first month of MMORPGs expansions life where everyone is trying to achieve the same thing at the same time and there is more of a sense of community.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3141

Veni, Vidi, Converti

3/04/12 5:02:55 AM#73
Originally posted by BlitzVF

I disagree.  

Community is not just folks working together, it is 'individuals' working together.If we are all the same, or can transform freely into any role we choose, we lose the concept of 'self'.Without self, and the persistant challenge of fititng that unique element into a focused team, there is no social investment, or challenge.In a way, the easier the game makes it to fit in, the looser and more un-resiliant the community becomes.Community building must be hard or it will last no longer then a wisp of steam on a windy day.Those who give their loyalty easily, betray equally easily.

-Blitz

It can go either way, though you're right to point out^.

Bit of crystal ball, but I have a feeling, we'll see GW2 produce some g8 social interactions with ppl happily frolicking after DEs, exploring and generally/genuinely wanting to play the game with others and none of this stupid: categorization/castigation business, at least not in the open-world DE system; perhaps a little for dungeons, elite des? But that's functional there so efficient and with only 5 required max for dungeons, should be able to find like-minded ppl (server swap too) + multi-guild allegiance.

Once you have ppl enjoying game-side and social-side think that is start of a lasting hub esp. for a mainstream game, accessibility more than selection works.

 

  Metentso

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1457

3/04/12 5:40:17 AM#74

Sounds artificial, i don't like.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

3/04/12 6:15:27 AM#75
Originally posted by freston

Omg. 5 years waiting for this game and now i find out im not going to be able to supercrit bunnies when im 80. I feel so let down. That was end game for me...that and supercritting cows. May i supercrit cows, at least?

You will be able to super crit chickens at least.

  poweruo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/04
Posts: 30

3/04/12 6:24:14 AM#76
1. hype 918 up, 356 down
 
A fad. A clever marketing strategy which a product is advertized as the thing everyone must have, to the point where people begin to feel they need to consume it.

but it can also mean

2. hype 756 up, 238 down
 
when someone gets excited about something
Damn..you hype calm down homey.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hype

huh look at that :)

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1326

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

3/04/12 6:40:52 AM#77

Levels won't make that much of a difference in the game. In other games a player 5+ levels higher than the mobs can just destroy all the mobs in an area. With the scaling down it will remain somewhat challenging even if you'll be stronger than when you were lower level.

The genius of this system is that it will keep zones interesting, even when you outleveled the mobs in it. In other MMO you wouldn't even bother stopping if you were attacked simply because the mobs can't really hurt you and you wouldn't get any xp for kiling them anyway. With the old system you'd just pass through a zone at a certain level, only to never return there with that character. With the scaling there is no reason not to return to an area when there's a DE going on.

The problem with the old way of doing things is players burning through content only to reach a boring grind end-game. With the scaling system the whole game is end-game, keeping it a lot more interesting for players. It might lead to a player not feeling like they're not advancing all that much, but the question is if that's a bad thing. What's so great about being able to afk while being pounded on by lower level mobs? If anything it's a big immersion breaker.

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1109

3/04/12 7:04:27 AM#78

I did not like the scaling system in City of Heroes.  They simply took away your powers you earned after a certain level, and crafted enhancement bonuses disappeared if they were too high of a level too.  While I understand the reasons for the design of their system, I disagree with the logic.  I put the effort into making my character powerful in a fairly complex character development system and I don't want it all simply taken away.  Scaling it back would have made a lot more sense than removing my powers and bonuses completely.

 

I hope Guild Wars 2 does not follow the same path.

  Hluill

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 102

3/04/12 8:06:05 AM#79

 





Originally posted by Master10K
What's annoying about current MMORPGs is that their's no incentive to go back and help a friend or guildmate on, let's say, an Elite mob for a quest. Because oneshotting a mob, that was once challenging, isn't fun and getting no rewards for doing something makes it a waste of time. So bring on the sidekicking, or dynamic auto-leveling mechanic, whatever it's called. It's much better than the current system of grey mobs, which turn once popular mid-level zones, into wastel 

Quoted for Truth


I enjoy Everquest 2's Mentoring and Chrono'ing system for this. I wish it was giving as an option not only when grouping, but when zoning as well. Reducing my toon's level to appropriate for the zone revitalizes a lot of old zones for me. Mentoring guildies allows me to spend time with more of my guild members and constructively help them.

I think that EQ2's mentoring system is well done in that it scales everything back. My toon doesn't lose skills, just a percentage of all values. My toon is still overpowered for the level, but that is kinda fun too.

I would like to see this in more MMOs.

Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
Playing: GW2, TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and V:SoH
Played: EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

 
OP  3/04/12 9:52:16 AM#80
Originally posted by syntax42

 Scaling it back would have made a lot more sense than removing my powers and bonuses completely.

 Thats exactly what they are doing :)

 

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

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