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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PvE players: large scale PvP more tolerable?

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97 posts found
  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

3/04/12 7:31:44 AM#41
Originally posted by RefMinor
Battlegrounds and arenas are about stroking your epeen, open world is about you and your sides place in the world, instanced circle jerking has no interest for me.

Me either.  The sad part is most games that offer open world PvP also have BG's and arenas.  In thier infinite wisdom, the game devs give rewards for the BG's and arenas and make open world PvP worthless.  Where do they think players are going to go?

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1138

3/04/12 7:37:23 AM#42

The only problem with large scale PVP is you can end up having what WAR had was two zergs of ranged and healers in one massive group and if any melee stepped outside of that group they'd be kill in an instant. So melee was basically useless because you always had the no mans land in the middle where people got instantly killed.

  User Deleted
3/04/12 7:37:50 AM#43

PvP e-sports are here to stay. The 2-faction open world PvP (a la WAR for example) needs to die. And even if the game provides PvP a la DAoC or the forthcoming GW2, a PvE player for the most part will focus on his/her PvE and once in a awhile run a PvP game.

Large scale PvP is fun when you have enough players on your side and on the other side of the fence. If it doesn't happen that way, players go back to their battlegrounds or PvE dungeons/raids, etc.

  Herodes

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 1488

Consumer

3/04/12 8:09:37 AM#44

I rarely do PvP in MMOs, since it is mostly about harrasment and rage, which is not why I play games. Maybe if I was a 20 year old childgod in a guild with teamspeak and too much unused testosteron, I´d like to slice through random groups.


Currently playing Trackmania 2 online, it is a wonderful racing game. Endless tracks, good music, everyone driving the same car and most important: noone can harras you, because it is all about beating the opponents´ best time in X minutes, then all moving to the next track - with 50 people at once.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5674

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/04/12 8:14:11 AM#45
Originally posted by fenistil
 

You understand this as 1-0 game and I did not meant it like that.

I should be hmm more specific as well.

 

I guess it all depends WHAT KIND of mmorpg we are talking about.

 

If it is mmorpg that is focusing alot on e-sport / BG / Arenas then you're propably right.

I am not fan of that mmorpg's - I may make exception to GW2 though but well it is cause this game won't be gear dependant and secondly devs clearly state that they aim for e-sport PvP game.

 

So to the point then. 

In other mmorpg's - I enjoy group / large scale PvP - so for me balancing 1 v 1 is pointless and lead to homogenizing classes and down the line to dps / cc race. 

While SOME balacing is needed obviously - Imo some games went with bit too big focus on that and what's even worse they balanced 1v1 instead of balancing group vs group. 

That kind of balance should incorporate mechanics that allow smaller group to beat bigger one (to an extent of course - noone expect 10 person to beat 40 ppl , but 10 person beating 15-18 should be possible with good tactic / strategy) and for class vs class balance should be more of rock , paper , scissors type - instead of trying to achieve perfect 1v1 balance between all classes - which imo as I mentioned lead to homogenization ,dps / cc race and boredom and require MORE devs time and more frequent buffs & nerfs.

 

So while I understand that my opinion will not be shared / liked by people that enjoy first and foremost Battleground - 'even balanced teams' type of PvP.

Well .... sometimes it is just not possible to achieve compromise as certain things exclude themself.

 

Hope my stance is more understandable now.

I didn't mean any specific type of balance. I'm all for rock, paper, scissors -balance. I actually prefer it. But as you can implement 1on1 balance badly, similarly you can implement RPS balance badly. At worst, one class is the same as one of the items in RPS and the game is filled with "hard counters". I'm sure I don't need to go into detail why that is bad.

You are just against bad balancing. I don't know anyone who would be against balancing the way I see it.

I do have an opinion on how the balancing should be done tho. Whatever the issue is, the rebalancing should be done more frequently than is the norm. Either finely tuning or with drastic changes depending on the severity - two maybe even three times a month.

Even if balance was one of the major focus points of the game, the hard thing about balance is that the developer should be the expert on it in their own game. And that is a shamefully rare thing. I know two companies that are particularly good in this: Arenanet and Riot Games. Both developers have had success in the E-sport front and that is no surprise. Arenanet created one of the most balanced games I've seen in the genre with Guild Wars 1. And I'm hoping they'll continue with that in GW2.

Riot has done a decent job with League of Legends although one must admit that the ability to ban champions before matches is sort of a cop-out balance-wise and they constantly and quite shamefully make their new champions deliberatelly overpowered to boost their sales and only bring them back in-line with the other champions after the novelty has faded. They obviously know what they're doing tho. Unlike companies like Mythic, CCP, Funcom and too many others. Either they knowingly neglect balance or they simply don't know what they're doing.

PvE doesn't suffer much from bad balance and there's always something else to blame in open world PvP (gank, zerg etc.) but it is absolutely crippling for competitive PvP. You may not pay much attention to balance, but I do because it affects me more.

I could write pages and pages on balance but this is getting off-topic. I hope you understand me better now.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5674

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/04/12 8:23:07 AM#46
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

You would get bored?  Don't you like to know where you stand with the character you're building?  Small tweaks are tolerable but game companies love to make sweeping changes.  Then there's the law of unintended consequences, one thing gets fixed and two other things get accidently broken so another patch is needed, ad infinitum.

The best litmus test I've noticed to see whether classes are reasonably balanced is watch the forums and see if players are arguing over who is the best and worst.  If everyone is in agreement then the balance is screwed up.  If there are 3-4 different opinions then you got something.

 

One thing I've learned is that customer is not always right. Infact I'd say the customer is more often wrong than right. It takes skill to understand not what they are saying but why they are saying it.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

3/04/12 8:34:43 AM#47
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by fenistil
 

You understand this as 1-0 game and I did not meant it like that.

I should be hmm more specific as well.

 

I guess it all depends WHAT KIND of mmorpg we are talking about.

 

If it is mmorpg that is focusing alot on e-sport / BG / Arenas then you're propably right.

I am not fan of that mmorpg's - I may make exception to GW2 though but well it is cause this game won't be gear dependant and secondly devs clearly state that they aim for e-sport PvP game.

 

So to the point then. 

In other mmorpg's - I enjoy group / large scale PvP - so for me balancing 1 v 1 is pointless and lead to homogenizing classes and down the line to dps / cc race. 

While SOME balacing is needed obviously - Imo some games went with bit too big focus on that and what's even worse they balanced 1v1 instead of balancing group vs group. 

That kind of balance should incorporate mechanics that allow smaller group to beat bigger one (to an extent of course - noone expect 10 person to beat 40 ppl , but 10 person beating 15-18 should be possible with good tactic / strategy) and for class vs class balance should be more of rock , paper , scissors type - instead of trying to achieve perfect 1v1 balance between all classes - which imo as I mentioned lead to homogenization ,dps / cc race and boredom and require MORE devs time and more frequent buffs & nerfs.

 

So while I understand that my opinion will not be shared / liked by people that enjoy first and foremost Battleground - 'even balanced teams' type of PvP.

Well .... sometimes it is just not possible to achieve compromise as certain things exclude themself.

 

Hope my stance is more understandable now.

I didn't mean any specific type of balance. I'm all for rock, paper, scissors -balance. I actually prefer it. But as you can implement 1on1 balance badly, similarly you can implement RPS balance badly. At worst, one class is the same as one of the items in RPS and the game is filled with "hard counters". I'm sure I don't need to go into detail why that is bad.

You are just against bad balancing. I don't know anyone who would be against balancing the way I see it.

I do have an opinion on how the balancing should be done tho. Whatever the issue is, the rebalancing should be done more frequently than is the norm. Either finely tuning or with drastic changes depending on the severity - two maybe even three times a month.

Even if balance was one of the major focus points of the game, the hard thing about balance is that the developer should be the expert on it in their own game. And that is a shamefully rare thing. I know two companies that are particularly good in this: Arenanet and Riot Games. Both developers have had success in the E-sport front and that is no surprise. Arenanet created one of the most balanced games I've seen in the genre with Guild Wars 1. And I'm hoping they'll continue with that in GW2.

Riot has done a decent job with League of Legends although one must admit that the ability to ban champions before matches is sort of a cop-out balance-wise and they constantly and quite shamefully make their new champions deliberatelly overpowered to boost their sales and only bring them back in-line with the other champions after the novelty has faded. They obviously know what they're doing tho. Unlike companies like Mythic, CCP, Funcom and too many others. Either they knowingly neglect balance or they simply don't know what they're doing.

PvE doesn't suffer much from bad balance and there's always something else to blame in open world PvP (gank, zerg etc.) but it is absolutely crippling for competitive PvP. You may not pay much attention to balance, but I do because it affects me more.

I could write pages and pages on balance but this is getting off-topic. I hope you understand me better now.

Well for me 2-3 times rebalancing per month is horrid ,but well then I don't care about e-sport in mmorpg's at all.

I actually think it is mistake to try to fit large scale pvp and e-sport in one game. 

Well at least if one of those is not more than total side-game ,like it seems WvWvW will be in GW2. (does not mean that it won't be fun & played often - but defintely won't be balanced )

 

Imo there is no possiblity to have meaningful e-sport and meaningful open group vs group balance in one game. 

 

Riot Games and LoL - well I understand but I don't care about that game at all and for me this game has no more connection to mmorpg's than car racing game.

Of course you like e-sport and cause you look for that thing in mmorpg's and that is in form of arenas / BG then I can see how LoL and other MOBA's can be related to it.

 

-------------------

 

WoW and some similar mmorppg's try or tried to merge open pvp ,large scale PvP , e-sport PvP and progress gear-type PvE - all in one game. And imo that backfires. 

Of course publishers want most diverse audience possible that's why they do that ,but imo that stopped working.

 

But I will stop here - I could like you write pages upon pages on that topic and still this topic would be only barely scratched.

Besides that would be derailing :)

  Torgen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 152

3/04/12 8:44:32 AM#48
Originally posted by tixylix

The only problem with large scale PVP is you can end up having what WAR had was two zergs of ranged and healers in one massive group and if any melee stepped outside of that group they'd be kill in an instant. So melee was basically useless because you always had the no mans land in the middle where people got instantly killed.

 

Long range vs. melee balance is always very important. I remember times in DAoC when melees could become nearly CC immune due to realm abilities. And since DAoC used a ruptable cast system you simply couldnt do anything to get them off your arse. You just tried to run away which was impossible and watched yourself die over and over again ;).

In the beginning of DAoC it was the same as for WAR. Casters were just overpowered and it was impossible to reach them.

 

  FrostWyrm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1038

3/04/12 8:55:27 AM#49
Originally posted by tixylix

I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.

Not sure if it's been touched upon yet because I only read the first page of comments, but while I can't speak for everyone, as a PvE'er myself, its the attitudes of PvP'ers that turn me off to it.

People get way more competitive and emotional over PvP than I really care for.They get angry when they lose, insult their own teams over the simplest of mistakes, act like d-bags when they win, and half the time run from a fair fight.

Basically, esport PvP (at least as far as I've experienced) lacks any kind of sportsmanship at all.

  Slapshot1188

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4190

3/04/12 9:34:10 AM#50
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by ShakyMo

im a PVP player

I find large scale PVP most tolerable

I have no love for e"sport" type pvp in mmos, its pointless and substandard compared to the small scale PVP experience in FPS, RTS or MOBAs.  I really really dont get why pvpers pay a subscription fee to sit in a tuperware box all day grinding for PVP sets when they could be playing a FPS or RTS for free and have inheriently more of this "balance" thing that seems so important to this kind of PVPer.

THIS.

 

While I am kinda mixed player (do both PvE and PvP - though more PvE I think) I agree with above.

 

For me e-sport arenas / BG  in mmorpg's gets boring fast.

I am not playing PvP in mmorpg to have 'e-sporty skill competition'. That just not the reason. Actually I dislike this in mmorpg's. I go to my old Warcraft 3 to get that kind of fix.

PvP in mmorpg for me ideallly should be as representation of conflict in virtual world , battling for resources ,etc + just for fun. 

 

Isolated arenas / battlegrouds actually are counterproductive to that.

 

I also don't care that much about balance - actually endless buff & nerfs and cries for balance do hurt mmorpg's more than help imo.

This is pretty much how I feel.   If I want to play a sporting event I will go play one.  To me, MMORPGs and E-Sports are a paradox.   MMORPGs are about character development.  E-Sports are supposed to be about balance and fair teams.  Unless both teams have access to the same characters then the balance is an illusion.  If there were one game I could create a sequel to it would be DAoC.   In my opinion they just got the PvP right.  I actually LOVED the fact that the realms were not mirrors of each other.  A new DAoC with a robust network engine and upgraded graphics would be my ultimate dream.

Behind that (closely) would be a shadowbane with similarly upgraded backbone/coding and graphics.

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

3/04/12 9:40:15 AM#51
Originally posted by Mardukk

As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP.  I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.

 

If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?

 

  I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing.  Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?

I am guessing because since WoW..most of the playerbase is from console gaming where stat boards and PvP competition is high and players want to be #1.

  FrostWyrm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1038

3/04/12 10:36:37 AM#52
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Mardukk

As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP.  I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.

 

If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?

 

  I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing.  Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?

I am guessing because since WoW..most of the playerbase is from console gaming where stat boards and PvP competition is high and players want to be #1.

It has nothing to do with console gamers. Its the FPS crowd you're thinking of. FPS' exist, and are widely popular on both PC and consoles.

I dont know where this whole consoles vs PC argument came from.

  Arachneus1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/06
Posts: 244

3/04/12 10:37:40 AM#53

In reply to a post earlier, Guild Wars 2 will have the best of both worlds.  Competitive e-sport arenas that makes everyone wear the same gear and WvWvW open-world PVP (which is a large scale arena with limited players that can enter) In fact the open-world pvp in guild wars is competitive as well as each server is ranked on a ladder just like teams in the e-sport arena mode.  So even casual players get that competitive edge and wants to help bump their server up the ladder by going for certain objectives.

Also balance is in the open-world to as every level 80 item is the same regardless what difficulty dungeon you get it from or open-world boss that drops.  Gear is cosmetic only at an equal level so skill is the only factor and balancing out skills in a game like this.  Of course it will take some time before everyone is max level to balance the gear out in the server arenas.

I think Guild Wars 2 will make PvP in this genre bearable to everyone and I think more should take note of this especially that they should remove the whole gear factor...this makes it easier to balance the game's class skills if everyone is the same.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/04/12 11:17:47 AM#54
Originally posted by Mardukk

As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP.  I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.

 

If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?

 

  I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing.  Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?

Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?

It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.

Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5674

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/04/12 11:43:27 AM#55
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Goatgod76
 

I am guessing because since WoW..most of the playerbase is from console gaming where stat boards and PvP competition is high and players want to be #1.

It has nothing to do with console gamers. Its the FPS crowd you're thinking of. FPS' exist, and are widely popular on both PC and consoles.

I dont know where this whole consoles vs PC argument came from.

I agree. Goatgod you bring up that console gamers-thing way too often and it is a crude stereotype and all too obvious strawman. There is no "console rabble", "the PC-gaming master race" or "the MMORPG elite" for that matter. Its all in your head, man. We're all just gamers.

I GM'ed pen & paper rpgs before I turned to MMORPGs. I dabbled in MTG too. Only "dabbled" because sadly it didn't caught on with my friends. And yes, I did try some of the old MMORPGs and none of them felt they were good. As a matter of fact I still loath the first MMO I ever played (Lineage 2). I play any game no matter the platform (although I prefer the X360 controller over the PS3 one) as long as they're good. There's probably no genre of games that I don't like, but old-school MMOs... *shudder* just too many bad memories.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

3/04/12 12:36:37 PM#56
Originally posted by Arachneus1

In reply to a post earlier, Guild Wars 2 will have the best of both worlds.  Competitive e-sport arenas that makes everyone wear the same gear and WvWvW open-world PVP (which is a large scale arena with limited players that can enter) In fact the open-world pvp in guild wars is competitive as well as each server is ranked on a ladder just like teams in the e-sport arena mode.  So even casual players get that competitive edge and wants to help bump their server up the ladder by going for certain objectives.

Also balance is in the open-world to as every level 80 item is the same regardless what difficulty dungeon you get it from or open-world boss that drops.  Gear is cosmetic only at an equal level so skill is the only factor and balancing out skills in a game like this.  Of course it will take some time before everyone is max level to balance the gear out in the server arenas.

I think Guild Wars 2 will make PvP in this genre bearable to everyone and I think more should take note of this especially that they should remove the whole gear factor...this makes it easier to balance the game's class skills if everyone is the same.

Exactly. Small scale competitive PvP and large scale 3 faction warfare. Who says a game can't have both and with gear not being a factor... I see GW2 for being the epitome of MMORPGs for most player. Not all, brcause you simply can't please everyone. Whether PvE'ers will dabble in it has yet to be seen, but it seems to provide an environment that is the least threatening for PvE'ers to dip their toes in.

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/04/12 1:07:43 PM#57
Originally posted by Mardukk

As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP.  I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.

 

If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?

 

  I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing.  Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?

 

I like PvP when it is part of the meta-universe.   Like Eve Online.   Like Fallen Earth when I played it in 2009/2010 before Icarus' collapse.

 

When it's just for gear-grinding, dueling or a plain-old-gank-fest for no real reason...   I find it anywhere from pointless to game-breaking.

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/04/12 2:31:54 PM#58
Originally posted by Quirhid

You can lose yourself in a large scale PvP and nobody will notice if you screw up. Nobody will tell you that you suck, but then again, nobody is there to pat you on the back either. Take League of Legends for example, you are one of just ten players in the field. In a sense one player represents one fifth of the teams power. You must carry your own weight for your team to succeed and if you don't you are sure to hear about it. People will notice your failures in E-sport PvP.

Then look at Eve and see if anyone gives shit about one Drake among 400 who might have shot other than the primary target. You can play, suck, enjoy the atmosphere of a large fight and still feel like you contributed when in reality your contribution was next to nothing. There's so many players involved that one player's triumphs or failures are rarely recognisable. It's easy.

 

Ah, if you were in a Drake, I'd expect you to screw up... ;)    (That's a joke, I don't know how carebear Drakes are now, but I when played...    Let's just say there was a lot of negativity toward Drake pilots and thier bloated sheild builds.)

  JudgeUK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/15/11
Posts: 733

3/04/12 2:34:25 PM#59

I expect pve players will find large scale pve more tolerable......

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1458

 
OP  3/04/12 5:40:46 PM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Mardukk

As a PvE player almost exclusively I was wondering what other PvE players find to be the more tolerable form of PvP.  I definitely feel that PvP with a larger purpose would appeal more to the PvE player rather than arenas and e sport PvP.

 

If what I suspect is true, why do developers continue to focus so much on E Sport/Arena style PvP when they could possible grab a more significant piece of the pie with more focus on large scale PvP?

 

  I could even so myself subing to a Shadowbane type game if there was a large common goal to work towards rather than killing each other over and over for nothing.  Do you think GW2 would fill this Shawdowbane type void?

Why would the developers need the PvE players to go PvP?

It is very simple. PvE content appeals to PvE players. E sports/arena obvious attracts enough PvP players. They both have what they want to play.

Shifting PvE players to PvP does NOT get you more customers.

Wha?  So you don't think developers should listen to approx 70% of all MMO gamers?  I know there is quite a bit of animosity towards PvP as it typically will get PvE nerfed in some way throughout the life an MMO.  No PvE players have ever quit due to PvP balancing BS?  PvE players opinions of PvP does matter.

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