Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Maybe they feel allowing people to spec on the fly will trivialize certain content?

That would mean bad gamedesign.

I don't know about that, as it would also be bad design to leave it as is; if they realized being able to change your spec at anytime allowed people to trivialize content. What I mean by trivialize it is: player X: is having trouble with mob Y: due to it having a higher resist to his axe based skills. He changes to sword instantly and easily defeats mob Y.

In this scenario there is no need of a strategy (pre-planning). You can just change when ever you have a problem with a scenario, which might seem fine to many, but when thinking about creating lasting content, part of that is not making it trivial, or allowing the player to make it trivial on the fly.

I can see this side but on the other side to many it makes the game more fun. Having those extra options. Just like Rift, having a role for most situations I found to be such a great idea.  On top of that I only had to play 4 alts total to have access to every soul in the game was refreshing as well. I liked playing my rogue switching from a shadow dwelling backstabbing one second to a singing, healing, buffing bard the next. I may be strange but to me I like having lots of choices when I play a game. I hate being locked down into one role one play path. After awhile you want to try something new and it's not much fun if you need to start all over on an ALT just to do so.

Anything beats the stupid Skill tree.. so sick of that crap.

Who said it was bad for a start ??

I like it. More options...better.

I don't have an issue with the trait system because of how easy it is to respec. It's a small fee, and you can do it whenever you like as much as you like. Having to run to town to do something only sucks when you have to walk there, but there's so many waypoints in GW2 it's almost ridiculous. It's a non-issue for me. What I ~do~ hope Anet eventually does is let us save builds with said respec NPC, that way we can switch easily without having to manually place points each time.

I can understand some people's upset, but I don't really think it's a big deal. I wouldn't have minded if you could change it anytime you liked for free, but I don't mind this either. Chances are you'll be making those trips to town to repair your armor, anyway. Plus, to be honest, I don't know that I want to constantly wait around in a dungeon party while people play with their traits trying to find just that right build. I dealt with that enough in my short time with Rift. It sucked.

I hate it.

the biggest complaint i've heard about this new trailt system is that it will somehow pigeon-hole you into using only one weapon set. after reading all the fuss about the new changes, i decided to look at them for myself. maybe im doing it wrong, but i already have a trait build in mind that will work with all of the possible weapon choices, which includes 3 main, 3 off, and even the 2 handed. granted, for now im only focusing on my main charater's trait selection and their level of importance when factoring in known game mechanics. if this is any indication of what to expect when choosing traits, then i see no reason yet that i will have trouble when i get around to my secondary and subsequent charater choices.

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

Originally posted by cali59

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

And what we've been trying to tell you is, it accomplishes those goals just not in the way YOU want it to.

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by cali59

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

And what we've been trying to tell you is, it accomplishes those goals just not in the way YOU want it to.

 Please read this, then let me know what you think.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1183396&postcount=260

Originally posted by cali59

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

I'm opposed too.  This new system just adds restrictions.  If only A-Net would remove the extra 4 stats, and keep them on items instead, like gear and weapons.

It's preferable to build a character around trait lines now, instead of a weapon set.  This is the biggest reason i hate this new system.

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by cali59

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

And what we've been trying to tell you is, it accomplishes those goals just not in the way YOU want it to.

 Please read this, then let me know what you think.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1183396&postcount=260

Trust me dude, I've read your posts (hello, it's me Dirame) and the points you've tried to convey just keep hitting a brick wall in my brain. In that particular post, you say the trait system is leading you down a path but the truth is it was your decision to take that path in the first place. You could have done something different but you didn't and you're blaming it on the trait system, I find that hilarious.

Let me tell you how I've theorcrafted builds; first I start off with knowing exactly what I want to play around with, let's say a Guardian with lots of weapon summons. The first thing I do is look for any traits that enchance that, doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter if it's in the vitality trait line or the power line, I grab what I need. After that, you can look at your attributes and then decide whether you're okay with how things have played out or whether you want to take advantage of the attributes you have. It's a decision YOU have to make, the trait system is not forcing you to do it. Yes, you would be silly not to take advantage of what your attributes have to offer BUT the trait system did not force you to make that decision. This is the point I think you and others keep clashing on.

i am just clearing the confusion for myself.  People do not like it cause the traits specify weapons and elements? So if you specced with Fire and Water traits for example. Then you are upset because someone may be better with Earth and Air at a particular part of the dungeon?

I was curious about the system, taken a gander at the calculator made up based on beta footage.

It's not a heavily restrictive system people. You have three basic traits that are set in stone, then three major traits you can choose from a list of several for each line. Does each one seem like it emphasizes a certain playstyle? Sure. Yet its also open enough with these traits to accomodate a few ways of playing. Water for Elementalists doesn't have to be healing focused, as there is damage traits in it as well.  And just because that water elementalist has chosen healing-centric traits doesn't mean that any other Water Ele can't contribute with healing, as healing as a whole is group-oriented, not player.

It gives you options as how you want your character to play. Messing around with the warrior traits, I already knew I'd be a greatsword person, and at least two of the trait lines have something to support that focus. Looking through there's also traits I grabbed since I also am used to doing some minor group support on my Warrior in GW1, like the added boost to banners and the healing for shouts. Did I have to take those? No, and I didn't have to take the other traits if I didn't want to.

As for the inability to switch out in the open, so what? As it has been mentioned before, its not like you could freely do it anywhere in GW 1, and with the shift to an open world something had to be changed, otherwise you'd have people macroing up instant trait-changes up the arse for everything. Going into PvP? You better have a trait set to deal with the elementalist, and another for the mesmer, and another for the turret engineer and yet another for flamethrower engineer as well. We also haven't heard anything about maybe having a few "Dedicated" trait setups we could register, much like how we have dual talents in World of Warcraft.

Not to mention this is still in Beta. Everything is still subject to change, and if ArenaNet feels like they need to change something I'm pretty darn sure they'll do it, as they have been doing for quite a while now (stat systems, the condition/boons, energy/dodge mechanics, yadda yadda).

also, arenanet's primary means of maintaining balance in gw2 will be through the trait system, not the skills. they may move a skill around between main and off hand weapon slots, but the skills will not be changing much if at all. the traits are what's going to set the bar (no, not skillbar). please try and remember that when you can't seem to get that Perfect Synergy between trait lines and the actual traits. arenanet listens to the mobs too, not just the players.

I see the wailing and gnashing of teeth continues.

So, after spending several hours playing with the trait system and developing several Mesmer builds (that I think are viable as it stands now), one thing I noticed was that it was hard to pigeonhole yourself too much into any "role", contrary to the complaints.  Every build seemed to be something that worked under a wide range of battle conditions and didn't look to me like something that I was going to have to constantly be changing once it was set.  I think  if people are feeling the need to constantly rebuild their characters, it will be because they haven't hit something that supports their playstyle yet.  That, or they are hopelessly indecisive.

I was concerned about how little customization was apparent before the trait system was announced.  Now we have something we can really sink our teeth into and really build our characters with, and people are grabbing torches and pitchforks.  Go figure.

i like complicated trees in an mmorpg. the more complicated the better. sure, they leave themselves open to cookie cutters and SEEM to have minimal choices, but sometimes you can go outside of the box. i remember playing a sub rogue in wow for years, despite being told i was gimping my rogue. was a time you couldn't find a sub rogue. but my play style suited it and i found myself oftentimes doing more damage than other specs simply because of my play style.

you might FEEL compelled to choose certain skills and if you don't you'll gimp, but if there really is a wide variety you might find in some cases it doesn't matter so long as you're choosing traits (in this case) which suit how you play.

that's why it's a choice.

i find it sad that many people look up cookie cutter guides. guides fail to take in the individual's skill and play style which determine which choices to make.

for me: i want a trait system which requires an encyclopedia to use. a whole wiki just for the traits. then maybe we'll see a lot more diversity.

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by cali59

I am so opposed to this trait system I would literally pay ArenaNet to change it if I could.  I love ArenaNet and I've followed this game for a year and a half and I've been one of its biggest supporters here, but I think this is an area where they are getting it terribly wrong.

I think as implemented it ruins the flexibility and freeform dungeoneering their amazing skill system provides all for the sake of permanence and customization, yet doesn't actually accomplish those goals.

I've posted 75 times since Tuesday on GW2Guru listing all sorts of concerns, objections and flaws to this system, all seemingly falling on deaf ears. I don't know more I can do except for maybe to post something on youtube.

I would say "don't even get me started", but the idea of someone actually wanting to hear what I have to say is too appealing.  :)

And what we've been trying to tell you is, it accomplishes those goals just not in the way YOU want it to.

 Please read this, then let me know what you think.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1183396&postcount=260

Trust me dude, I've read your posts (hello, it's me Dirame) and the points you've tried to convey just keep hitting a brick wall in my brain. In that particular post, you say the trait system is leading you down a path but the truth is it was your decision to take that path in the first place. You could have done something different but you didn't and you're blaming it on the trait system, I find that hilarious.

Let me tell you how I've theorcrafted builds; first I start off with knowing exactly what I want to play around with, let's say a Guardian with lots of weapon summons. The first thing I do is look for any traits that enchance that, doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter if it's in the vitality trait line or the power line, I grab what I need. After that, you can look at your attributes and then decide whether you're okay with how things have played out or whether you want to take advantage of the attributes you have. It's a decision YOU have to make, the trait system is not forcing you to do it. Yes, you would be silly not to take advantage of what your attributes have to offer BUT the trait system did not force you to make that decision. This is the point I think you and others keep clashing on.

 Maybe we have to agree to disagree, because even in responding to this I have to touch on a bunch of different arguements I've also made.

edit:  Actually, I just deleted the arguements I made.  I have no desire to rehash this here.  If people want to see all my attempts at criticizing the trait system, they can just follow the link above and check my post history.  If people want to see the counterarguments, just scroll down after each post, lol.  I don't think I've made any converts.  The next post about balancing is new material though.  That one can stay.

Originally posted by jayce

also, arenanet's primary means of maintaining balance in gw2 will be through the trait system, not the skills. they may move a skill around between main and off hand weapon slots, but the skills will not be changing much if at all. the traits are what's going to set the bar (no, not skillbar). please try and remember that when you can't seem to get that Perfect Synergy between trait lines and the actual traits. arenanet listens to the mobs too, not just the players.

My thing is that the skill system is this beautiful, wonderful thing.  You can have any class do any role, just not all of them at the same time.  You can have an elementalist on your front line in earth while a warrior is in the back dropping AoE with a bow.  You can have that elementalist get in trouble and have some random guy use the one control skill on their bar to save them just in time for the warrior to switch to a mace/shield and take over.  It's freeform, it's flexible, it's nontrinity, it's awesome.

And the best part is they could balance it extremely well, especially compared to GW1.  There's far fewer skills, half are tied to weapon (making comparison from weapon to weapon easy) and no dual classes.  There's actually only 870,000  ways to set up a skill bar for a warrior, compared to 152 TRILLION in GW1 for one dual class combination (like warrior/monk).

If the skill system can be balanced to an extremely high level, then when they add traits there's nowhere for it to go but down.  Think about it.  70 points, 5 trees, 75 traits buffing 10 attributes?  The math is harder to compute, but I'm seeing 540 ways you can responsibly (5 at a time) allocate your 70 points.  Then there's 580,000 minimum ways to allot 7 major traits after that.  Multiply them together and you have 300 million ways or so you can figure out your traits.  Multiply that by the 870k skill combinations and we're back up to 260 TRILLION.  Holy crap this system will actually be harder to balance than GW1!!!!!!  Am I really the only one who thinks this is a disaster?

The thing is that there's ways they could do customization which don't have to be like this.  Minor general bonuses.  No attributes.  No trait synergies.  No traits tied to specific weapons or skills.  No trees.

edit: when I computed the 870,000, I knew about fewer skills.  My estimate is now 1.3 million.  This brings the grand total up from 260 trillion to 390 trillion.

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Originally posted by cali59
Please read this, then let me know what you think.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1183396&postcount=260

---

I see what you're saying, but your problem seems to be more with specific traits than the system as a whole. The first thing I thought when I looked at the traits on the wiki was that they were clearly not balanced. Most of them look like placeholders.

It was the same thing as when I saw the original list of attributes. It had similar balance problems, but it was clearly going to change.

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by jayce

also, arenanet's primary means of maintaining balance in gw2 will be through the trait system, not the skills. they may move a skill around between main and off hand weapon slots, but the skills will not be changing much if at all. the traits are what's going to set the bar (no, not skillbar). please try and remember that when you can't seem to get that Perfect Synergy between trait lines and the actual traits. arenanet listens to the mobs too, not just the players.

My thing is that the skill system is this beautiful, wonderful thing.  You can have any class do any role, just not all of them at the same time.  You can have an elementalist on your front line in earth while a warrior is in the back dropping AoE with a bow.  You can have that elementalist get in trouble and have some random guy use the one control skill on their bar to save them just in time for the warrior to switch to a mace/shield and take over.  It's freeform, it's flexible, it's nontrinity, it's awesome.

And the best part is they could balance it extremely well, especially compared to GW1.  There's far fewer skills, half are tied to weapon (making comparison from weapon to weapon easy) and no dual classes.  There's actually only 870,000  ways to set up a skill bar for a warrior, compared to 152 TRILLION in GW1 for one dual class combination (like warrior/monk).

If the skill system can be balanced to an extremely high level, then when they add traits there's nowhere for it to go but down.  Think about it.  70 points, 5 trees, 75 traits buffing 10 attributes?  The math is harder to compute, but I'm seeing 540 ways you can responsibly (5 at a time) allocate your 70 points.  Then there's 580,000 minimum ways to allot 7 major traits after that.  Multiply them together and you have 300 million ways or so you can figure out your traits.  Multiply that by the 870k skill combinations and we're back up to 260 TRILLION.  Holy crap this system will actually be harder to balance than GW1!!!!!!  Am I really the only one who thinks this is a disaster?

The thing is that there's ways they could do customization which don't have to be like this.  Minor general bonuses.  No attributes.  No trait synergies.  No traits tied to specific weapons or skills.  No trees.

you should stop that. you'll go blind.