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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PvE players: large scale PvP more tolerable?

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97 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/03/12 3:34:31 PM#21

I only PVE in MMORPGs because MMORPG PVP sucks.

Esports-style PVP in MMORPGs is actually the least sucky type of PVP you can find in an MMORPG, because skill is more meaningful.  The amount of non-skill factors ruining MMORPG PVP is at its lowest in arenas, and at its highest in large-scale world PVP (unless the large-scale PVP was population-balanced, which would be about the same as arena PVP.)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/03/12 3:46:53 PM#22
Originally posted by Axehilt

I only PVE in MMORPGs because MMORPG PVP sucks.

Esports-style PVP in MMORPGs is actually the least sucky type of PVP you can find in an MMORPG, because skill is more meaningful.  The amount of non-skill factors ruining MMORPG PVP is at its lowest in arenas, and at its highest in large-scale world PVP (unless the large-scale PVP was population-balanced, which would be about the same as arena PVP.)

Another n00b that doesn't understand that RPGs are about character skill.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/03/12 4:06:28 PM#23

im a PVP player

I find large scale PVP most tolerable

I have no love for e"sport" type pvp in mmos, its pointless and substandard compared to the small scale PVP experience in FPS, RTS or MOBAs.  I really really dont get why pvpers pay a subscription fee to sit in a tuperware box all day grinding for PVP sets when they could be playing a FPS or RTS for free and have inheriently more of this "balance" thing that seems so important to this kind of PVPer.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/03/12 4:09:35 PM#24
Originally posted by eyeswideopen
Originally posted by tixylix

I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.

I don't understand why people like to PvP other than they can't fight in real life, thus they need to be in a  virtual world where they can "kill" other people's pixels without getting their ass physically handed to them.

 

Just sayin'.

Signed, a PvE'er.

I dont understand why people like to PVE progress other than in real life they perhaps have sucky or no job and probably no girlfriend, but the chance to acheive at following a script from some webpage with 39 other people lets them stand around showing off their shinnies to give them that sense of acheivment.

 

see what I did there mr amateur psycholgist.

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1229

3/03/12 4:23:37 PM#25
Originally posted by ShakyMo

see what I did there mr amateur psycholgist.

I see what you did there. Very clever. Well played sir, well played. Might I subscribe to your newsletter?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/03/12 4:23:45 PM#26
Originally posted by Cuathon

Another n00b that doesn't understand that RPGs are about character skill.

RPGs have never been wholly about player skill, and over the years the RPGs which involve the best tactical mid-fight decisionmaking have been considered some of the best RPGs around.

An RPG can still be alright with a terrible combat system, but a great combat system makes games far more enjoyable.

  User Deleted
3/03/12 4:28:39 PM#27

Large scale PvP doesn't work without "large" amounts of players willing to PvP. Look at Warhammer.

 

I like both PvE and PvP, leaning a bit more towards PvP. However, I'm in a PvE guild and my guildmates won't PvP for any reason.

 

I was flagged PvP in a common (both faction) story area with some guildmates. I was flagged because I had just been in a battleground fight. While standing around with my guildies, two opposing faction players attacked me. I hurt them really bad and they ran away and tried to hide. I said to my guildmaster, "Lets go get them". The reply (in all of its PvE creabear glory was) No, I can't, they'll try to hurt me" So I killed them without the guilds help.

 

PvE players aren't aggresive enough to play PvP. They get aggressive wih party members that don't know a dungon or can't play their class right.

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5673

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/03/12 4:36:15 PM#28

You can lose yourself in a large scale PvP and nobody will notice if you screw up. Nobody will tell you that you suck, but then again, nobody is there to pat you on the back either. Take League of Legends for example, you are one of just ten players in the field. In a sense one player represents one fifth of the teams power. You must carry your own weight for your team to succeed and if you don't you are sure to hear about it. People will notice your failures in E-sport PvP.

Then look at Eve and see if anyone gives shit about one Drake among 400 who might have shot other than the primary target. You can play, suck, enjoy the atmosphere of a large fight and still feel like you contributed when in reality your contribution was next to nothing. There's so many players involved that one player's triumphs or failures are rarely recognisable. It's easy.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
3/03/12 4:47:05 PM#29
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by eyeswideopen
Originally posted by tixylix

I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.

I don't understand why people like to PvP other than they can't fight in real life, thus they need to be in a  virtual world where they can "kill" other people's pixels without getting their ass physically handed to them.

 

Just sayin'.

Signed, a PvE'er.

I dont understand why people like to PVE progress other than in real life they perhaps have sucky or no job and probably no girlfriend, but the chance to acheive at following a script from some webpage with 39 other people lets them stand around showing off their shinnies to give them that sense of acheivment.

 

see what I did there mr amateur psycholgist.

People like PvP for the same reason they might play a pick-up game of basketball or touch football. Its a desire too compete.

PvE (football) = tackle dummy      PvP (football) = touch football game

  acidblood

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 248

3/03/12 4:52:34 PM#30

I'm mostly a PvE player, but yes, large scale PvP is definitely more of a draw than Battlegrounds and especially Arenas, mainly because there is a lot more freedom too it... Arenas (in WoWs case at least) are just killing the other team, and in most cases the outcome it decided by gear / classes before the match even begins, and Battlegrounds while fun for a while get increadable repedative, and in most cases the fastest way to win is to avoid PvP... both of these types of PvP are also generally about Points Per Hour, which to me is not fun.

My next MMO is definitely going to be GW2, and one of things I'm most looking forward to is World v World; I doubt I'll even set foot in the Arenas / Battlegrounds.

 

  eyeswideopen

Tipster

Joined: 5/24/09
Posts: 2503

3/03/12 4:58:57 PM#31
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by eyeswideopen
Originally posted by tixylix

I don't understand why people cannot like PVP other than they find it too hard to fight against anything other than dumb A.I. Just make a group with friends, turn off local chat, turn on mics and have a blast with mates killing other players which is much harder, challenging and more rewarding than any A.I I've played against in any game.

I don't understand why people like to PvP other than they can't fight in real life, thus they need to be in a  virtual world where they can "kill" other people's pixels without getting their ass physically handed to them.

 

Just sayin'.

Signed, a PvE'er.

I dont understand why people like to PVE progress other than in real life they perhaps have sucky or no job and probably no girlfriend, but the chance to acheive at following a script from some webpage with 39 other people lets them stand around showing off their shinnies to give them that sense of acheivment.

 

see what I did there mr amateur psycholgist.

No. The answer is that while home from work,my girlfriend can blow me while I PvE without causing too many ingame problems. And when the neighbor talks shit because he's sees us though the window while he's passing by and gets jealous, I can walk outside to him and physically PvP with real consequences unlike pixel PvP'ers who have no girlfriends outside of their cousin Tilly ( who's not slow, just "underdeveloped" ) and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack if you cut a hole in the bottom of it for them first.

 

See what I did thar?

-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1458

 
OP  3/03/12 5:01:15 PM#32
Originally posted by ShakyMo

im a PVP player

I find large scale PVP most tolerable

I have no love for e"sport" type pvp in mmos, its pointless and substandard compared to the small scale PVP experience in FPS, RTS or MOBAs.  I really really dont get why pvpers pay a subscription fee to sit in a tuperware box all day grinding for PVP sets when they could be playing a FPS or RTS for free and have inheriently more of this "balance" thing that seems so important to this kind of PVPer.

I couldn't agree more.  I don't entirely understand the constant balance talks when they could just go play a console game and have it be 100% balanced. 

 

 

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

3/03/12 5:28:09 PM#33
Originally posted by Mardukk
Originally posted by ShakyMo

im a PVP player

I find large scale PVP most tolerable

I have no love for e"sport" type pvp in mmos, its pointless and substandard compared to the small scale PVP experience in FPS, RTS or MOBAs.  I really really dont get why pvpers pay a subscription fee to sit in a tuperware box all day grinding for PVP sets when they could be playing a FPS or RTS for free and have inheriently more of this "balance" thing that seems so important to this kind of PVPer.

I couldn't agree more.  I don't entirely understand the constant balance talks when they could just go play a console game and have it be 100% balanced. 

 

 

THIS ^

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2682

3/03/12 6:15:12 PM#34
Originally posted by Cuathon

Another n00b that doesn't understand that RPGs are about character skill.

I couldve sworn that I wouldve flat out died if I didnt learn the tricks of some bosses in RPGs.  Like how youre supposed to use a phoenix down on the boss to kill it in FF7.  Or how you have to kill the thin guy first in Wild ARMS.

The only time it becomes strictly character skill is when you overlevel everything and can just pwn everything with a few regular attacks o.O OR if the characters move and control themselves while you just watch

 

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  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

3/03/12 6:15:50 PM#35
Originally posted by ShakyMo

im a PVP player

I find large scale PVP most tolerable

I have no love for e"sport" type pvp in mmos, its pointless and substandard compared to the small scale PVP experience in FPS, RTS or MOBAs.  I really really dont get why pvpers pay a subscription fee to sit in a tuperware box all day grinding for PVP sets when they could be playing a FPS or RTS for free and have inheriently more of this "balance" thing that seems so important to this kind of PVPer.

THIS.

 

While I am kinda mixed player (do both PvE and PvP - though more PvE I think) I agree with above.

 

For me e-sport arenas / BG  in mmorpg's gets boring fast.

I am not playing PvP in mmorpg to have 'e-sporty skill competition'. That just not the reason. Actually I dislike this in mmorpg's. I go to my old Warcraft 3 to get that kind of fix.

PvP in mmorpg for me ideallly should be as representation of conflict in virtual world , battling for resources ,etc + just for fun. 

 

Isolated arenas / battlegrouds actually are counterproductive to that.

 

I also don't care that much about balance - actually endless buff & nerfs and cries for balance do hurt mmorpg's more than help imo.

  RefMinor

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

Hipster

3/03/12 6:34:05 PM#36
Battlegrounds and arenas are about stroking your epeen, open world is about you and your sides place in the world, instanced circle jerking has no interest for me.
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5673

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/04/12 5:51:42 AM#37
Originally posted by fenistil

I also don't care that much about balance - actually endless buff & nerfs and cries for balance do hurt mmorpg's more than help imo.

Constant nerfs and buffs, even if they don't solve anything permanently, keep the game's metagame fresh atleast. I would get bored really fast if the game's balance would be locked in place. With perfect balance it would work, but in practice, perfect balance in impossible to achieve. It is a good goal to strive for though. What it certainly doesn't do is hurt the game.

The better the balance the better the game. Bad balance is sure to ruin the game.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

3/04/12 6:28:46 AM#38
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by fenistil

I also don't care that much about balance - actually endless buff & nerfs and cries for balance do hurt mmorpg's more than help imo.

Constant nerfs and buffs, even if they don't solve anything permanently, keep the game's metagame fresh atleast. I would get bored really fast if the game's balance would be locked in place. With perfect balance it would work, but in practice, perfect balance in impossible to achieve. It is a good goal to strive for though. What it certainly doesn't do is hurt the game.

The better the balance the better the game. Bad balance is sure to ruin the game.

You understand this as 1-0 game and I did not meant it like that.

I should be hmm more specific as well.

 

I guess it all depends WHAT KIND of mmorpg we are talking about.

 

If it is mmorpg that is focusing alot on e-sport / BG / Arenas then you're propably right.

I am not fan of that mmorpg's - I may make exception to GW2 though but well it is cause this game won't be gear dependant and secondly devs clearly state that they aim for e-sport PvP game.

 

So to the point then. 

In other mmorpg's - I enjoy group / large scale PvP - so for me balancing 1 v 1 is pointless and lead to homogenizing classes and down the line to dps / cc race. 

While SOME balacing is needed obviously - Imo some games went with bit too big focus on that and what's even worse they balanced 1v1 instead of balancing group vs group. 

That kind of balance should incorporate mechanics that allow smaller group to beat bigger one (to an extent of course - noone expect 10 person to beat 40 ppl , but 10 person beating 15-18 should be possible with good tactic / strategy) and for class vs class balance should be more of rock , paper , scissors type - instead of trying to achieve perfect 1v1 balance between all classes - which imo as I mentioned lead to homogenization ,dps / cc race and boredom and require MORE devs time and more frequent buffs & nerfs.

 

So while I understand that my opinion will not be shared / liked by people that enjoy first and foremost Battleground - 'even balanced teams' type of PvP.

Well .... sometimes it is just not possible to achieve compromise as certain things exclude themself.

 

Hope my stance is more understandable now.

  Aethaeryn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 1917

3/04/12 6:37:20 AM#39

I am a bout 60% PVE and 40% PvP.  

 

I like being able to be purprised by an enemy in a world at any time.

I hate when they are a crazy high level and can one shot people (why level / zone based games woth Free for all don't work as well)

 

I would order my preferences as:

1 - world PvP with a goal

2 - Larger battlegrounds with goals 

3 - Smaller Battle Grounds

1 - Areana PvP (although fun once in awhile it just seems so repetative)

I want to have a purpose and overall goal in mind and have the battle last long enough to use large scale tactics over twitchy play (I am sooo old though)

Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

3/04/12 7:14:06 AM#40
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by fenistil

I also don't care that much about balance - actually endless buff & nerfs and cries for balance do hurt mmorpg's more than help imo.

Constant nerfs and buffs, even if they don't solve anything permanently, keep the game's metagame fresh atleast. I would get bored really fast if the game's balance would be locked in place. With perfect balance it would work, but in practice, perfect balance in impossible to achieve. It is a good goal to strive for though. What it certainly doesn't do is hurt the game.

The better the balance the better the game. Bad balance is sure to ruin the game.

You would get bored?  Don't you like to know where you stand with the character you're building?  Small tweaks are tolerable but game companies love to make sweeping changes.  Then there's the law of unintended consequences, one thing gets fixed and two other things get accidently broken so another patch is needed, ad infinitum.

The best litmus test I've noticed to see whether classes are reasonably balanced is watch the forums and see if players are arguing over who is the best and worst.  If everyone is in agreement then the balance is screwed up.  If there are 3-4 different opinions then you got something.

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

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