Originally posted by Dredphyre

Originally posted by Aerowyn

just watch this.. seriously it explains everything

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8&feature=related

we think alike....however, I have the entire reason in my link ;)

:)

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

What the early games did have was an eager RPG player base that took to them because this was a whole new way to RP and their imagination ran riot thinking of what MMO's could become in the future. They formed communities, helped each other out, roleplayed, hung out with their ingame friends and had a good time having adventures that were fresh and new to them but now as with all technology those original dreams of virtual worlds with ingame player wars, player made factions and economies just fell by the wayside and a new type of game evolved, maybe one day a development company will release one thats hits the spot for many old vets but I wouldn't hold your breath, because you as a gamer have changed as much as the games themselves. The genre has moved on and leans more to games than simulators but games have never really been hard ever, its all about learning THE TRICK and thats it.

Originally posted by jdlamson75

There's a game called Darkfall.  You want slow and grindy?  Want a challenge with death penalties?  Go ahead and play it. 

I find it ironic that you mention one game out of hundreds, kind of makes the OP's point.

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by jdlamson75

There's a game called Darkfall.  You want slow and grindy?  Want a challenge with death penalties?  Go ahead and play it. 

I find it ironic that you mention one game out of hundreds, kind of makes the OP's point.

Dark Fall, EVE, Fallen Earth, Xyson, Mortal Online, FFXI, Ryzom..shall i go on?

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

What the early games did have was an eager RPG player base that took to them because this was a whole new way to RP and their imagination ran riot thinking of what MMO's could become in the future. They formed communities, helped each other out, roleplayed, hung out with their ingame friends and had a good time having adventures that were fresh and new to them but now as with all technology those original dreams of virtual worlds with ingame player wars, player made factions and economies just fell by the wayside and a new type of game evolved, maybe one day a development company will release one thats hits the spot for many old vets but I wouldn't hold your breath, because you as a gamer have changed as much as the games themselves. The genre has moved on and leans more to games than simulators but games have never really been hard ever, its all about learning THE TRICK and thats it.

ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3ZZGccgek

that game is still running,do what he did,i give you 5 years because its so easy,but im pretty sure you cant,why ? because even building that character needs real skills.

skills do exists in games.

but it can be dumbed down,so you can build that character with pressing 1  mouse button ofcourse,but dumbing down doesnt exists i forgot.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I was just thinking to myself how much I used to love Everquest. I began to realize how it started to lose its appeal to me once SoE began "dumbing it down" to suit the masses that ultimately found haven with games like WoW.

I then took a look at the situation with WoW today. Those same masses that SoE "dumbed down" EQ to try and please I now often see complaining about  WoW because because Blizzard has "dumbed down" the game to suit a new set of masses.

So it just makes me wonder, will today's MMORPGs be "dumbed down" even further in the future? Will today's masses complain about how easy the games have become 8 or 10 years from now? Just how "dumb" can MMORPGs get before the masses begin to desire the opposite?

 

FYI: Before anyone starts flaming, this is not a troll thread. I use quotes around "dumb" because I dont mean it as an insult to anyone's intelligence, merely as a reference to the term "dumbing down".

It has more to do with pandering to the Instant Gratification crowd, than anything else.  Those whose lack of patience, and sense of entitlment is legendary at this point.  I suspect we've only seen the start of this trend. Where it will end (if it does) is any ones guess. Perhaps in a world like Idiocracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I was just thinking to myself how much I used to love Everquest. I began to realize how it started to lose its appeal to me once SoE began "dumbing it down" to suit the masses that ultimately found haven with games like WoW.

I then took a look at the situation with WoW today. Those same masses that SoE "dumbed down" EQ to try and please I now often see complaining about  WoW because because Blizzard has "dumbed down" the game to suit a new set of masses.

So it just makes me wonder, will today's MMORPGs be "dumbed down" even further in the future? Will today's masses complain about how easy the games have become 8 or 10 years from now? Just how "dumb" can MMORPGs get before the masses begin to desire the opposite?

 

FYI: Before anyone starts flaming, this is not a troll thread. I use quotes around "dumb" because I dont mean it as an insult to anyone's intelligence, merely as a reference to the term "dumbing down".

It has more to do with pandering to the Instant Gratification crowd, than anything else.  Those whose lack of patience, and sense of entitlment is legendary at this point.  I suspect we've only seen the start of this trend. Where it will end (if it does) is any ones guess. Perhaps in a world like Idiocracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

hahah, ironically enough, a few of us have arleady posted about this....you didn't even bother reading the thread before posting, did you Mr "Not-Istant-Gratification"  ;)

Originally posted by Superduper69

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by jdlamson75

There's a game called Darkfall.  You want slow and grindy?  Want a challenge with death penalties?  Go ahead and play it. 

I find it ironic that you mention one game out of hundreds, kind of makes the OP's point.

Dark Fall, EVE, Fallen Earth, Xyson, Mortal Online, FFXI, Ryzom..shall i go on?

Sandbox vs themeparks arguement has NOTHING to do with how "hard" or "difficult" a game is per OP's post.

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by Superduper69

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by jdlamson75

There's a game called Darkfall.  You want slow and grindy?  Want a challenge with death penalties?  Go ahead and play it. 

I find it ironic that you mention one game out of hundreds, kind of makes the OP's point.

Dark Fall, EVE, Fallen Earth, Xyson, Mortal Online, FFXI, Ryzom..shall i go on?

Sandbox vs themeparks arguement has NOTHING to do with how "hard" or "difficult" a game is per OP's post.

I thought we were talkin about games which offer challenge regardless of whether they are themepark or sandbox?

Originally posted by Superduper69

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by Superduper69

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

Originally posted by jdlamson75

There's a game called Darkfall.  You want slow and grindy?  Want a challenge with death penalties?  Go ahead and play it. 

I find it ironic that you mention one game out of hundreds, kind of makes the OP's point.

Dark Fall, EVE, Fallen Earth, Xyson, Mortal Online, FFXI, Ryzom..shall i go on?

Sandbox vs themeparks arguement has NOTHING to do with how "hard" or "difficult" a game is per OP's post.

I thought we were talkin about games which offer challenge regardless of whether they are themepark or sandbox?

Ok, maybe I'm stupid but I'm going off of OP's Everquest and WoW examples.

---

Originally posted by FrostWyrm
I was just thinking to myself how much I used to love Everquest. I began to realize how it started to lose its appeal to me once SoE began "dumbing it down" to suit the masses that ultimately found haven with games like WoW.
I then took a look at the situation with WoW today. Those same masses that SoE "dumbed down" EQ to try and please I now often see complaining about  WoW because because Blizzard has "dumbed down" the game to suit a new set of masses.
So it just makes me wonder, will today's MMORPGs be "dumbed down" even further in the future? Will today's masses complain about how easy the games have become 8 or 10 years from now? Just how "dumb" can MMORPGs get before the masses begin to desire the opposite?
 
FYI: Before anyone starts flaming, this is not a troll thread. I use quotes around "dumb" because I dont mean it as an insult to anyone's intelligence, merely as a reference to the term "dumbing down".

---

They seek that what brings most money if its dumb down or smart up future will tell.

Its seems that a game like GW2 try at least smart up the themepark genre but we have to wait untill we have played it so we can judge if GW2 going the right direction.

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

What the early games did have was an eager RPG player base that took to them because this was a whole new way to RP and their imagination ran riot thinking of what MMO's could become in the future. They formed communities, helped each other out, roleplayed, hung out with their ingame friends and had a good time having adventures that were fresh and new to them but now as with all technology those original dreams of virtual worlds with ingame player wars, player made factions and economies just fell by the wayside and a new type of game evolved, maybe one day a development company will release one thats hits the spot for many old vets but I wouldn't hold your breath, because you as a gamer have changed as much as the games themselves. The genre has moved on and leans more to games than simulators but games have never really been hard ever, its all about learning THE TRICK and thats it.

ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3ZZGccgek

that game is still running,do what he did,i give you 5 years because its so easy,but im pretty sure you cant,why ? because even building that character needs real skills.

skills do exists in games.

but it can be dumbed down,so you can build that character with pressing 1  mouse button ofcourse,but dumbing down doesnt exists i forgot.

 

No no no, putting a man on the moon, curing cancer, understanding quantuum mechanics, how to preserve bio diversity on planet Earth, building an organic micro-processor is hard playing a video game is not hard in the least players who think they like "supereior" games think its hard the rest of us just have fun as its entertainment. Games have not been dumbed down players have just learned how to play them. 

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I was just thinking to myself how much I used to love Everquest. I began to realize how it started to lose its appeal to me once SoE began "dumbing it down" to suit the masses that ultimately found haven with games like WoW.

I then took a look at the situation with WoW today. Those same masses that SoE "dumbed down" EQ to try and please I now often see complaining about  WoW because because Blizzard has "dumbed down" the game to suit a new set of masses.

So it just makes me wonder, will today's MMORPGs be "dumbed down" even further in the future? Will today's masses complain about how easy the games have become 8 or 10 years from now? Just how "dumb" can MMORPGs get before the masses begin to desire the opposite?

 

FYI: Before anyone starts flaming, this is not a troll thread. I use quotes around "dumb" because I dont mean it as an insult to anyone's intelligence, merely as a reference to the term "dumbing down".

First EQ wasn't dumbed down to WoW standards.  I have played both and honestly, given the choice I would go back to EQ before I ever picked up WoW again.  Biggest problem with EQ is the whole quest grind.  Since they went FTP I figured I would give it a go again.  Stuck on my bard right now trying to figure out how I am going to get the Chromodrac gut without creating a second account and levelling a toon up that can hold the placeholder once I highsun them back to their spawn point.

However, imo, yes the younger generations are getting dumber.  It has nothing to do with computer games or mmos.  It has to do with standardizing tests and methods that schools are using to train for them.  Where I live, all the schools do it.  They don't teach how to solve this problem or the correct way to write that paper.  They teach this is how you complete the standardized test that will decide whether you graduate to the next grade or not.  SATs are bad when used as a tool in this way.  The original SAT was a one time test given near or at the end of high school.  It was designed to show how much information you retained from classes and determine an IQ level based on what you knew.

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

Try soloing to max level in EQ back in 2000.

What? You cant? You say it's too hard?

Yeah, I thought so.

I can only talk about my own situation.  My first MMO was Anarchy Online.  That game was complex, at least in today's standards.  You could assign skills to anything, you had to decide where to put every skill.  Gear had no level requirements just skill requirements, so you had to try to tweak your skills in order to fit the highest possible gear.  I remember spending weeks on just calculations on how to put in a ql 300 implant, which at that time were literally impossible to equip.  Over time, they became possible to equip, but only with the best possible tweaking gear and buffs, only a few could put them in.  Still, the amount of time that you had to put in simply to equip pieces of armor was staggering.  Gear didn't just dropped anywhere either.  Only raid bosses dropped gear.  The rest was from high level crafting. 

Then my friend introduced me to WoW.  At first, I hated it.  It was way too easy.  Equipping gear was as simple as clicking on it.  Getting gear was easy too.  I mean greens dropped everywhere.  This did not happen in AO.  Oh, yeah, and you could solo through the whole game.....What?  How boring!!  I quit, but then I started again, and eventually, I enjoyed not having to work so much in order to play.  I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but it did.

Could I go back now?  I'm not so sure.  I look back at my AO days with a lot of nostalgia.  It will always be the best MMO that I played.  But, I'm older now.  I don't have the same time to dedicate to a game like that.  PvP and raids in that game happened in specific times.  If someone attacked your guild's towers and you were busy or weren't on, you lost them simple as that.  Certain raids happened at specific server times (the portals to the raids would only be open for 15 mins then close again for 7 (?) hours).

I have to ask myself....was that kind of gaming better?  It was probably more satisfying, I'll give you that.  But who has the time now?  I just have more important things to do now.  Not to mention that players who never really experienced that probably will have a harder time to get into it, which is really the big point.

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I can only talk about my own situation.  My first MMO was Anarchy Online.  That game was complex, at least in today's standards.  You could assign skills to anything, you had to decide where to put every skill.  Gear had no level requirements just skill requirements, so you had to try to tweak your skills in order to fit the highest possible gear.  I remember spending weeks on just calculations on how to put in a ql 300 implant, which at that time were literally impossible to equip.  Over time, they became possible to equip, but only with the best possible tweaking gear and buffs, only a few could put them in.  Still, the amount of time that you had to put in simply to equip pieces of armor was staggering.  Gear didn't just dropped anywhere either.  Only raid bosses dropped gear.  The rest was from high level crafting. 

Then my friend introduced me to WoW.  At first, I hated it.  It was way too easy.  Equipping gear was as simple as clicking on it.  Getting gear was easy too.  I mean greens dropped everywhere.  This did not happen in AO.  Oh, yeah, and you could solo through the whole game.....What?  How boring!!  I quit, but then I started again, and eventually, I enjoyed not having to work so much in order to play.  I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but it did.

Could I go back now?  I'm not so sure.  I look back at my AO days with a lot of nostalgia.  It will always be the best MMO that I played.  But, I'm older now.  I don't have the same time to dedicate to a game like that.  PvP and raids in that game happened in specific times.  If someone attacked your guild's towers and you were busy or weren't on, you lost them simple as that.  Certain raids happened at specific server times (the portals to the raids would only be open for 15 mins then close again for 7 (?) hours).

I have to ask myself....was that kind of gaming better?  It was probably more satisfying, I'll give you that.  But who has the time now?  I just have more important things to do now.  Not to mention that players who never really experienced that probably will have a harder time to get into it, which is really the big point.

The thing is, there are a lot of people that spend hours on end in today's MMOs same as in the old ones. Its not as though the idea of jobs and family were suddenly invented between now and then. People still had full time jobs and families to care for, and they still managed to enjoy themselves.

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

What the early games did have was an eager RPG player base that took to them because this was a whole new way to RP and their imagination ran riot thinking of what MMO's could become in the future. They formed communities, helped each other out, roleplayed, hung out with their ingame friends and had a good time having adventures that were fresh and new to them but now as with all technology those original dreams of virtual worlds with ingame player wars, player made factions and economies just fell by the wayside and a new type of game evolved, maybe one day a development company will release one thats hits the spot for many old vets but I wouldn't hold your breath, because you as a gamer have changed as much as the games themselves. The genre has moved on and leans more to games than simulators but games have never really been hard ever, its all about learning THE TRICK and thats it.

ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3ZZGccgek

that game is still running,do what he did,i give you 5 years because its so easy,but im pretty sure you cant,why ? because even building that character needs real skills.

skills do exists in games.

but it can be dumbed down,so you can build that character with pressing 1  mouse button ofcourse,but dumbing down doesnt exists i forgot.

 

 

No no no, putting a man on the moon, curing cancer, understanding quantuum mechanics, how to preserve bio diversity on planet Earth, building an organic micro-processor is hard playing a video game is not hard in the least players who think they like "supereior" games think its hard the rest of us just have fun as its entertainment. Games have not been dumbed down players have just learned how to play them. 

oooh so you did it allready ,can i see video or something?

and if this is the case that you did that kind of stuff in just  1 hour of gameplay ,isnt that just the proof that games are dumbed down ??

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

Try soloing to max level in EQ back in 2000.

What? You cant? You say it's too hard?

Yeah, I thought so.

You can solo in EQ you just take on blue and green mobs and if you have the patience of a saint you will eventually get to cap so no its not hard I've tried it, its just bloody tedious.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Calerxes

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age Of Camelot were not hard games at all this notion that they were hard is only in the heads of players. Those games had no tutorials, no guides in the early days, no direction of what to do, no quests or in fact content you stood in a spot and grinded your tits off. Those games had to be learned by trial and error or asking other players what the bloody hell you were doing. They extended the level curve to keep players playing because they had no idea of what to give players when they did eventually reach cap or maxed skills. If I try to build a PC with no prior knowledge of what to do it would seem hard but if I learn how to do it it becomes damn easy thats all that happened to the MMO sphere you learened what to do and that makes it seem that games are easier nowadays. Games have always been about learning THE TRICK ever since I started playing in the 70's once you learn THE TRICK they become much easier. 

 

Try soloing to max level in EQ back in 2000.

What? You cant? You say it's too hard?

Yeah, I thought so.

I reached 46 lvl on my Erudite Paladin...yeah yeah, post Luclin. While I never reached max level, it wasn't all that hard to actually level.  It was just freaking tedious.  And if I could get to 46lvl on the worst class/race combination in the game, it only stands to reason how more readily a Dark Elf Necromancer could advance solo, or maybe the root and blast Wizards.

Yes we are getting dumber, if everything is easy and accessible to an 8 year old then we are being tested to the ability of an 8 year old. Play wow for 6 months and then play something like vanguard and see how frustrated you become with the higher level of difficulty. Your brain becomes accustomed to easy leveling and mobs you can 2 shot.