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General Discussion  » The implications of trinity and no trinity

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  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  3/01/12 10:33:29 PM#1

There's a huge thread already on this forum about people arguing whether the (holy) trinity exists or does not exist in GW2.  I do not intend this thread to be like that.

Instead, I want to discuss what having or not having a trinity system really means in terms of how the game plays and players interact.

To me, the trinity system has always meant that there is one simple group-level tactic that will work in almost every single scenario.  Namely, I tank, you heal me, everyone else kill stuff.  On the positive side, this makes it extremely easy for any group whose players have a small modicum of MMO knowledge to succeed.  After all, you only need to understand what your "role" is, and that's it.  Once you know you are the "healer" no other tactical discussions need to take place.

But this is a double edged sword.  Because it also means that, since the same tactic works in every situation, dungeon runs become so simple that players rarely need to even talk to each other when doing a dungeon.  Indeed, the communication of many dungeon runs consists of only short phrases or single words like "I'll tank" or "Pull" and that's it.  Nothing else really needs to be said to succeed.  Know your role, and you will win.

Furthermore, since dungeons become so simple with the trinity system, and players don't really need to communicate to succeed, this can lead to a mentality of just rushing through dungeons for a "reward" instead of actually playing them for enjoyment.  After all, since completing them is so trival, and there is no need for social interaction to succeed, they become kind of boring.  A lot of people blame this behavior on dungeon finder, but honestly, I think the trinity is at fault.  If there wasn't a single tactic that worked on EVERYTHING, maybe players would actually have to talk to each other before running blindly into any battle armed with the all powerful trinity monkey wrench.

 

Now let's talk about a "non-trinity" system.

All this means is that the "trinity" tactic won't work in most situations.  Further, I will assume that there is not a "replacement" tactic that can work in every situation as well (because that would be stupid).  Different situations may require different solutions, and players will have to examine the "tools" in their collective toolbox of abilities to try to find the best way to approach a tough situation.  

On the plus side, this will probably encourage more communication the players won't have a single "monkey wrench" tactic that they can apply to any situation and win.  They will need to actively discuss strategy when a hard challenge is encountered...running in blindly will likely not work due to lack of coordination.

But on the negative side, this makes it more difficult for groups to work together.  Some people just want to casually blaze through a dungeon, and all of a sudden it becomes a much bigger time and mental investment.  Communication is also a double edged sword.  In a trinity system you can go through an entire dungeon with a jerk and possibly never even realize that he's a jerk because there is no need to talk.  But in a non-trinity system, his jerkness will probably be well known to you.

 

Personally...I prefer a non-trinity system.

I remember the best dungeon run I ever had was in Rift when 2 of our group members (including the main healer!) bailed and the remaining three of us (warrior and two rogues) decided to try to finish the dungeon.  We actually communicated about strategy, and had the one rogue switch to a tanking build so he and I could switch off tanking the boss while the other rogue switched to bard for support heals.  Miraculously, we actually beat the dungeon, and I actually felt a feeling of real accomplishment for once.

We had beaten the dungeon in a way the designers really didn't intend by thinking of a clever solution.  The trinity system normally robs you of that.  It gives you the solution, you never need to think of it...you just need to not royally F up your role and you will win.

I'm really looking forward to a system that actually makes me think again.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  dopplemmo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/07
Posts: 31

3/01/12 10:42:14 PM#2

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  3/01/12 10:46:12 PM#3
Originally posted by dopplemmo

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

True in games like WoW where your class is more or less locked into a specific trinity role.  But Rift does a lot to solve this issue with the trinity system by letting a single class fulfill several roles (but only one at a time!) just by doing an on-the-fly respec.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Lord.Bachus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8599

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

3/01/12 11:01:44 PM#4

Its just a mindset, i think since the old fashioned trinnity will work way less effective then in other MMO's, other tactics become viable again.  Just lets hope there will be several tactics possible depending on situation, otherwise a single new tactic will replace the trinnity

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  User Deleted
3/01/12 11:14:55 PM#5

I enjoy both types but th eone thing I dislike about the non trinity is the fact you always seem to be in a rush because it goes by so fast, sometimes you miss the journey.

  evicton

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/11
Posts: 399

3/01/12 11:22:08 PM#6
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by dopplemmo

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

True in games like WoW where your class is more or less locked into a specific trinity role.  But Rift does a lot to solve this issue with the trinity system by letting a single class fulfill several roles (but only one at a time!) just by doing an on-the-fly respec.

I haven't played since wotlk, but I could do this in wow on my pali, my spec and roll depending entirely on our groups current make up, and there were times I had to leave the raid, respec and come back. Now most classes didn't have the flexibility of playing all three roles and most still don't. But I've been basicly conditioned when in any mmo for my main atleast to pick a class with the most flexibility ie in tor my main is a bounty hunter because I can heal or dps depending on my spec. However my sniper will always be nothing more then three flavors of dps that are more playstyle changes.

This is what appeals to me most about gw2 I can pick any class and have the flexibilty (more so really) that your standard hybrid is capable of.

 

On a side note even with a trinity system you can get much more creative then most dungeons do, however to really see the creativity, its generally saved. Take that one encounter in Gruuls back in BC you really wanted a mage to tank on the one boss. That encounter itself shows there could be much more flexibility and diverisity then what we regularly see from a trinity based mmo.

  AIMonster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2016

3/01/12 11:34:29 PM#7

I also think a lot of people are mistaken about how you'll likely have to play Guild Wars 2 optimally too.  I see a lot of people agreeing that there is no trinity, but then saying things like you'll bring 5 of a particular class and one will support, one will tank, and three will DPS.  No, this is still wrong.  Yes, you can be better at support, or control, or damage with certain builds, but if you don't bring a little of everything (and nearly all classes have a little of bit of everything no matter their weapon and utility loadout) and adequately perform all roles then you probably aren't playing optimally.  Maybe it's a bit too soon to make that assumption, but it still looks that way to me.  You can build a role close to a healer (as I've said Mace/Focus Guardian with all healing utilities and tome of courage comes very close), but you'll still be putting out damage and you'll still be able to (AND SHOULD) swap to another weapon set and put out even more control and damage.

So instead of saying you can bring 5 of any profession and they each can take a role think of it instead as you bring 5 of any profession and they each perform all roles to various degrees.  Instead of bringing someone for a particular role you could instead plan before hand which abilities each person takes and divvy it up a certain way where you can get all boons, a decent set of control tools, abilities to protect your group, and still do near maximum DPS on every role.  The beauty of being able to change utility out outside of combat as you'll see in the Rift example of OP (and one of the big benefits of Rift's system) is that if some tactic doesn't work the first time you can rethink the situation and setup your utility and weapon sets accordingly.

Sure, you can throw yourself into that mentality that you are going to be in a specific role because you specced your traits this way or that way, but I'm pretty certain that won't be the optimal way to do things.  I know I'm going to be avoiding the types of people who think they should just put the highest damage abilities on their bar with no utility whatsoever and run meters bragging about their DPS when they are dying left and right and providing no support or control in a 5 man dungeon.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  AIMonster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2016

3/01/12 11:45:46 PM#8
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by dopplemmo

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

True in games like WoW where your class is more or less locked into a specific trinity role.  But Rift does a lot to solve this issue with the trinity system by letting a single class fulfill several roles (but only one at a time!) just by doing an on-the-fly respec.

Some problems with the Rift system was the game was very gear dependent, so if you switched out to a role and didn't have gear for it you'd perform poorly.  This was especially the case with a DPS or healer class switching to a tank which had completely different stats.  In raiding you'd eventually become pigeonholed into bringing a particular spec until the point where you had content full cleared and were able to pick up gear for your alternate spec (at this point you wouldn't need to be flexible switching your spec anyway as the content would be on farm status).

Still, the system was an elegant solution to grouping pre-raiding.  Too bad people were still generally in the mindset that they had to play these particular souls in a group and never bothered to switch roles.  Guild Wars 2 is taking it a step further by not only allowing you to swap out utility skills out of combat, but also swapping weapon sets in combat and generally making an effort to remove the "tank" and "healer" aspects of the trinity by putting them into softer categories of support and control and more importantly letting you perform all roles effectiently in a single "spec".

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Evereghalo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/12
Posts: 51

3/02/12 12:41:58 AM#9
The best way I heard it described was in a vid I thInk. In trinity mmo you have 5 people working next two one another. In gw2 you have 5 ppl working with one another.

  Sanctum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/12
Posts: 192

3/02/12 1:33:23 AM#10
Originally posted by Magnum2103

I also think a lot of people are mistaken about how you'll likely have to play Guild Wars 2 optimally too.  I see a lot of people agreeing that there is no trinity, but then saying things like you'll bring 5 of a particular class and one will support, one will tank, and three will DPS.  No, this is still wrong.  Yes, you can be better at support, or control, or damage with certain builds, but if you don't bring a little of everything (and nearly all classes have a little of bit of everything no matter their weapon and utility loadout) and adequately perform all roles then you probably aren't playing optimally.  Maybe it's a bit too soon to make that assumption, but it still looks that way to me.  You can build a role close to a healer (as I've said Mace/Focus Guardian with all healing utilities and tome of courage comes very close), but you'll still be putting out damage and you'll still be able to (AND SHOULD) swap to another weapon set and put out even more control and damage.

So instead of saying you can bring 5 of any profession and they each can take a role think of it instead as you bring 5 of any profession and they each perform all roles to various degrees.  Instead of bringing someone for a particular role you could instead plan before hand which abilities each person takes and divvy it up a certain way where you can get all boons, a decent set of control tools, abilities to protect your group, and still do near maximum DPS on every role.  The beauty of being able to change utility out outside of combat as you'll see in the Rift example of OP (and one of the big benefits of Rift's system) is that if some tactic doesn't work the first time you can rethink the situation and setup your utility and weapon sets accordingly.

Sure, you can throw yourself into that mentality that you are going to be in a specific role because you specced your traits this way or that way, but I'm pretty certain that won't be the optimal way to do things.  I know I'm going to be avoiding the types of people who think they should just put the highest damage abilities on their bar with no utility whatsoever and run meters bragging about their DPS when they are dying left and right and providing no support or control in a 5 man dungeon.

i agree very much with this statement. Except for the fact where you contradict yourself by saying there will be no roles after mentioning the mace/focus guardian that is focused on healing yet can also swap and control/dmg. I think you will have a Main role and a Sub role becuase of the two weapons and for hard PvE encounters you'll have to plan ahead who does who, the whole 5 elementalist shit doesn't seem very optimal. Although in some cases someone could only have one role (thief who doesn't benefit from changing weapons).

  FlawSGI

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1405

All of history is a lie. The truth depends on who does the listening, and who does the telling...

3/02/12 1:33:51 AM#11
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by dopplemmo

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

True in games like WoW where your class is more or less locked into a specific trinity role.  But Rift does a lot to solve this issue with the trinity system by letting a single class fulfill several roles (but only one at a time!) just by doing an on-the-fly respec.

 I'd like to add something to this. One of the  glaring problems I am finding in the games I have played with the holy trinity is the LFg tool. Aside from waiting for roles to be filled and the ego's some carry around if they happen to be filing that role *looking at tanks in WoW charging groups money to get early Q timers*, you start to run into the problem of no accountability when you are a shitty person be it bad player or personality. I am not saying that the LFG tool is completely to blame, but it being implemented to cut down the time people have to sit around LFG because of roles has allowed some shitty people to never have to face consequences for being the bad apple since they can just random Q. It gets even worse when you start to cross servers to further cut down the time waing for roles to be filled.

 

 I am not saying that all games that have the trinity are guilty or have the LFG tool, only because of roles the tool has become a viable way to cut down wait times but at what cost. I never experienced the kind of post WoW communities when I played FFXI. In that game if you acted the way they do in some of the games I have played, nobody grouped with you and people didn't have to put up with it. Made for the best community experience I have had to date. SO by GW2 not having designated roles that have to be filled a certain way, maybe they won't find the need for a random LFg tool. Even if they do to make it easier for the solo types to do group content, the fact that there are no designated roles means a group I am in won't be held hostage by an egotistical tank who knows that without him our group falls apart and we go back into the waiting pool. This was the thought that came to mind when mentioning WoW and Rift. Sure Rift was more flexable in regards to roles but the game still suffered some of the drawbacks of a game that is designed around the holy trinity.

RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  FlawSGI

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1405

All of history is a lie. The truth depends on who does the listening, and who does the telling...

3/02/12 1:42:20 AM#12
Originally posted by Mephster

I enjoy both types but th eone thing I dislike about the non trinity is the fact you always seem to be in a rush because it goes by so fast, sometimes you miss the journey.

I also agree with this statement. Until I have personally played the game I can't be sure how much of a zergfest it will feel like. I don't think a game that has the holy trinity is bad and for me GW2 will be the first MMO i play that doesn't have one at all. For me the pros seem to outweigh the cons at this point in time. For all I know, lack of the holy trinity may make the game even more strategic. Only hands on experience will answer that riddle.

RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

3/02/12 1:50:28 AM#13
Originally posted by Mephster

I enjoy both types but th eone thing I dislike about the non trinity is the fact you always seem to be in a rush because it goes by so fast, sometimes you miss the journey.

what? I would think staring at healing bars all the time would be missing the journey.... but what on earth are you talking about?!?!?

 

Good post Creslin

  User Deleted
3/02/12 1:54:05 AM#14

for me, it means a more fluid and responsive fight. it means a challenging battle.

it's been shown that if one person tries tanking a boss, it won't work. i like that aggro is pulled not just from damage, but from vicinity. so, everyone will have to take their turn. this is almost a communist attitude toward fighting. it means in big fights there's a possibility you may have to take on not just one role, but two or three. you may have to swing past the boss to grab some aggro off a dying comrade so they can heal and take it back.

the dodging mechanic as you roll away i can see is going to be king, and you really get a sense of the potential for feeling you've actually accomplished something when you down a large boss. i don't know how everyone else feels, but i feel this system will really bring the fun back for one reason: everyone now has a chance to get their hands dirty. even if you like healing, you'll still get to smash face. and let's face it - what's more fun than going toe-to-toe against something big, or another player? that adrenaline rush is what we play for.

there's much more diversity to your gameplay. much more action. more focus on stepping up and DOING something.

i think, for me, this is going to be the biggest achievement. as we play more, we'll become more in tune with our fellow teammates and i do feel it allows for greater levels of involvement. you won't be able to just sit back and one-click your healing button. or, as a tank, pop a few trinkets and taunt a few times. you won't be able to ride the coattails of other players. you'll now have to step up and be responsible, not just for yourself, but for the success of the group.

i anticipate a lot of rage from players as they try to deal with the fact they can't be "run" through a dungeon anymore. that they can't just get level-ups and loot handed to them. that they're actually, for the first time in so long, going to have to work to get it.

and i don't see that as a bad thing. finally a game you shouldn't be able to faceroll through!

 

 

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

3/02/12 1:59:28 AM#15

I just remembered something, and this is probably my one issue with the non trinity thing.. and I guess atm would be a GW2 thing. The bosses in the dungeon seem to do a huge amount of melee damage that is unavoidable... now I am going off the badly done videos we have all seen but even when they are dodging and moving back out of red circles and big moves they are getting their a$$es handed to them... I think that the bosses at least should do less melee damage for those up in their face and playing well.

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

3/02/12 2:06:58 AM#16
@OP: it all depends on the viability of alternative team builds. If they're as viable as the trinity setup or more, then you'll see diversity. However, if a trinity similar team setup still tends to be the most effective ones, people will take the easy road.


The problem or concern that I see is that some team builds will still become dominant and players pushed in those roles or the required classes for that build be required. For example, depending on what the FotM was at a given time, there was a huge demand for Warrior Monks in GW, or spike elementalists at another time and so on.

I can easily see how some classes and builds could be requested if they'd complete a specific team build that proves to be hugely popular and effective.

I agree though that the potential for diversity is a lot higher when letting go of the simplistic hard trinity model where alternative team set ups are either not effective enough or even discouraged and frowned upon.
  User Deleted
3/02/12 2:10:18 AM#17
Originally posted by ariboersma

I just remembered something, and this is probably my one issue with the non trinity thing.. and I guess atm would be a GW2 thing. The bosses in the dungeon seem to do a huge amount of melee damage that is unavoidable... now I am going off the badly done videos we have all seen but even when they are dodging and moving back out of red circles and big moves they are getting their a$$es handed to them... I think that the bosses at least should do less melee damage for those up in their face and playing well.

therein lies that path to madness.

  mazut

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/23/08
Posts: 827

3/02/12 3:51:12 AM#18
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by dopplemmo

Another implication:

 

With Trinity: you often got to wait for a healer or tank to show up, before you can go.

Without Trinity: no longer need to wait, just fill the group and go.

True in games like WoW where your class is more or less locked into a specific trinity role.  But Rift does a lot to solve this issue with the trinity system by letting a single class fulfill several roles (but only one at a time!) just by doing an on-the-fly respec.

I guess in WoW this isnt such problem, since this is probably the most populated MMO. But in other games its definately a huge problem when you want to pug. And I like to pug :/

  Trenker

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/05
Posts: 89

3/02/12 5:21:37 AM#19

For me, in theory, the joy of GW2's non-trinity system is that, ironically, I will be taking the role of each of the trinity in a fight - I will need to dps, tank and heal during the fight if my group is to succeed.  For me that's three times the fun with no role restrictions.

I just dread the day when some DPS noobs say to my Guardian 'hay why can't u hold aggro!!'.

Mind you it beats 'where's my heals!!' lol :P

 

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

3/02/12 6:17:19 AM#20
Originally posted by ariboersma

I just remembered something, and this is probably my one issue with the non trinity thing.. and I guess atm would be a GW2 thing. The bosses in the dungeon seem to do a huge amount of melee damage that is unavoidable... now I am going off the badly done videos we have all seen but even when they are dodging and moving back out of red circles and big moves they are getting their a$$es handed to them... I think that the bosses at least should do less melee damage for those up in their face and playing well.

I also noticed that in those groups, players weren't rolling out of combat and letting others take over in the front while they recuperate, not to mention, there never seems to be a lot damage mitigation sklls being used either, just a whole lot of DPS.  That's a problem right there which has a lot to do with player inexperience and unfamiliarity with their characters.

Another problem I saw, especially during the fights with Adelbern, players were getting hit with the Foefire DoT while at low health and it looked certain they were going to die, but they would stay in the front, going toe-to-toe with the king.  Of course, they would get downed right at the king's feet, making rezzing them difficult for their team mates.  If they'd rolled to the rear before they were downed, their buddies would have had a much easier time getting them back on their feet, while also taking less of a risk.

Finally, I can't count the number of times I've seen players running around at half health but not using their personal heal.  Instead, they'd save it until they were at 10-20% health before using it, which would get them back up to half again.  They should be using that heal whenever it is off cooldown if their health isn't full, instead of waiting until they are on death's door.

So there are several things that players could be doing better overall, to make these encounters smoother.  They are still going to be tough, but I don't believe they need to be wipe-a-thons if players were actually working together as they should and playing their characters to their full potential.  Right now, that's happening very rarely, but it will improve over time.  The level of difficulty as it stands right now looks pretty close to spot on.

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