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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Calling all people who think Sandbox mechanics need to be put back into MMOS!

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104 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/01/12 2:32:21 PM#41
Originally posted by musicmann

No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

You say the online world furthest away from themepark will be successful, yet all your examples aren't online worlds.

(Which is why they work.  Singleplayer sandboxes work.  MMO ones?  Not so much.)

You also list Skyrim, which is almost a textbook definition of themepark.  Skyrim is a bunch of themepark rides, and you choose which ones you ride, but you don't create rides at all.  Actually that's also the case with RDR.  There wasn't much "sand" in either game, where users were actually creating their own experience (apart from mods, but the overwhelming majority don't make mods.)

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7749

Logic be damned!

3/01/12 2:35:25 PM#42
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by Zlayer77
So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!
 

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Zaltark

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/06
Posts: 430

3/01/12 2:36:55 PM#43

 /gets out old person cane and beats BadSpock for such good logic.

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

3/01/12 2:37:19 PM#44
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

 

Rock and roll was the devil, though!  Just like this newfangled themepark MMOs.

 

The devil, I say!

 

..is anyone listening?

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

3/01/12 2:39:10 PM#45
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by Zlayer77
So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!
 

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

 

I actually agree with those 50's parents, I think the make your own fun washboard skiffle bands were far better than that mass produced Elvis rubbish.
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7749

Logic be damned!

3/01/12 2:39:25 PM#46
Originally posted by Khaeros
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

Rock and roll was the devil, though!  Just like this newfangled themepark MMOs.

The devil, I say!

..is anyone listening?

This has been happening since... I don't know.. the dawn of time?

People grow up, things change, people don't like that things change and want what they used to have because it was better.

Pissing into the wind...

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  musicmann

Novice Member

Joined: 12/25/05
Posts: 1122

3/01/12 2:43:50 PM#47
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by musicmann

No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

You say the online world furthest away from themepark will be successful, yet all your examples aren't online worlds.

(Which is why they work.  Singleplayer sandboxes work.  MMO ones?  Not so much.)

You also list Skyrim, which is almost a textbook definition of themepark.  Skyrim is a bunch of themepark rides, and you choose which ones you ride, but you don't create rides at all.  Actually that's also the case with RDR.  There wasn't much "sand" in either game, where users were actually creating their own experience (apart from mods, but the overwhelming majority don't make mods.)


I see your point, but i guess what i was trying to convey with naming those console games is that, those games are open ended even though they are not mmorpg's. No you don't have the tools to create within the game world, but some like minecraft you do. I just feel like the days of the very linear and restricted themparks are gonna start to take a back seat to a game world that has sandbox tools for the community to build with once again. It's the reason why i mention those 3 that are coming out. The one that actually has the tools to let the communtiy build things within the online world and still has a robust character system will probably be the most successful. The trend is pointing to much into that direction for it not to be.

  zevni78

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

3/01/12 2:47:11 PM#48

I like this idea, though EVE may not be the right game, I can never find anything fun to do in it, how about WURM? Its the purest sandbox, and we could make out own village.

  Zekiah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2540

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

3/01/12 2:49:13 PM#49
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by Zlayer77
So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!
 

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

Or perhaps they're just playing them because everything else sucks too.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  Tasarak

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/09
Posts: 43

3/01/12 2:50:52 PM#50
Originally posted by Zlayer77
Originally posted by Skooma2

You are not going to  get as many people as you would like to sign  your petition.  The reason that most people play  themeparks rather than sanboxes is that it is really only a sandbox for people who have been playing since the beginning.  If  you are not there at the start, you are not entering a sandbox; you are entering a themepark world created by the players who were there before you.   It is no longer a sandbox for you because you will encounter a world created by others.

The thing is that we are not totaly happy with the sanboxes ourself. Or we would be playing them and be happy right? But I think there is a huge market for a sanbox hybrid. And I think many of you that are tired of the Clones.. would like to have more tools to effec the game world.

And that you cant effect a sanbox is just not true.. You dont have to be there at the start to make an Impact.

And this is a genral protest against the Industry for making Clone games and not trying something new and Innovationg. And for not trusting us to create things inside the game worlds. It a protest against putting everything On rails and forcing us to just ride along.. and be happy.

We need more sanbox feeling In MMOS or it will be like Wolfshead put it

If anything, this has made me pause to reflect about the current state of virtual MMOs and the unfortunate suicidal direction they are heading in — a virtual bridge to nowhere.

Those of us looking for a serious fantasy virtual world experience have few options. It’s like we are trapped a dark age where ancient knowledge has been lost and barbarism holds sway and I’m not the only one that believe this. I get letters from readers every week that lament the loss of what once was. Perhaps, while we still remember them, it’s time to draft a MMORPG manifesto and codify the noble principles and unswerving constants that many of us believe were hallmarks of the first golden age of this genre

Originaly by Wholfshead.. creative changes by Zlayer77 to avoid fanboyin

 

 

 

To the original poster &  other's dissastified  gamers. If  you are looking for  fresh, innovative ideas & a well thought out design philosophy on MMO's,  check out Pathfinder Online.  Veteran gamers or new people that are not happy with today's current  crop of MMO's, this game shows a clear new vision. This game has alot of promise.  After reading thier blogs,  I believe we have a group of people who actually care about the IP first  & wish to create a  feature rich virtual/hybrid world.  I applaud their efforts to break from the status quo. Grab a coffee & read up.

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10872

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/01/12 2:54:05 PM#51


Originally posted by ElderRat


Originally posted by lizardbones


Originally posted by ElderRat


Originally posted by lizardbones


Originally posted by ElderRat


Originally posted by Rhavens


Originally posted by Skooma2






That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.


guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?


To me, it matters a lot more how well the game is written and whether or not the content is compelling. I won't buy or play a game because it's a theme park or because it's a sandbox. The game has to offer something I want to do, whether that's watch a story or build a house. That doesn't answer your question, but to me, it's irrelevant.


It doesn't sound, to me - my opinion of your posts(could be wrong), that you like any games right now.  Well they are not going to change  without a call for change.  All that is required for evil to win is that good men do nothing.  Now I am not saying the current situation  in mmo's is evil... but the point remains - if you do not like it and you do nothing then you are part of the problem not the solution. either way hope you find a game you like.



I updated my post - I don't think the distinction between sandbox and theme park is all that relevant (to me). The question asked of me was perfectly fine.

There are games I like, and I'm playing them. I'm not really playing anything that could be classified as an MMORPG though. That vein, as they say, has been tapped. I'm sure another MMORPG will come along, but for now I'm OK with not playing any.

I think a better 'protest' would be to purchase games you like (MMORPG or not) and then advertise someplace that you're playing them. If the games are not MMORPG, send a letter or an email to the publisher of said game that an MMORPG version might get your money.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7749

Logic be damned!

3/01/12 3:00:34 PM#52
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by Zlayer77
So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!
 

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

Or perhaps they're just playing them because everything else sucks too.

Very few people I think will throw away money on something that isn't fun just because it's the only option they think they have.

People who don't like Pop music don't run out to the local Walmart to buy all the latest CD's just because so and so are on the top 10 charts.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Zekiah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2540

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

3/01/12 3:03:46 PM#53
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by Zlayer77
So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!
 

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

Or perhaps they're just playing them because everything else sucks too.

Very few people I think will throw away money on something that isn't fun just because it's the only option they think they have.

People who don't like Pop music don't run out to the local Walmart to buy all the latest CD's just because so and so are on the top 10 charts.

Really? I used to do it. I have friends that still do it. And I know there are TONS of people here who do it.

Gamers are game-junkies jonesing for their next fix.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7749

Logic be damned!

3/01/12 3:21:29 PM#54
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock

Very few people I think will throw away money on something that isn't fun just because it's the only option they think they have.

People who don't like Pop music don't run out to the local Walmart to buy all the latest CD's just because so and so are on the top 10 charts.

Really? I used to do it. I have friends that still do it. And I know there are TONS of people here who do it.

Gamers are game-junkies jonesing for their next fix.

Not saying you are wrong, as we all have different experiences, but saying "I know a guy" is not an argument.

That being said, it is fair to assume there are people who stick around in games they only find "meh" due to the social connections. They stay for their friends/guilds even though they don't REALLY like the game that much.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2540

3/01/12 3:21:40 PM#55

I dont like spacegames at all and few fanatasy sandbox like Darkfall or Mortal online are full with cheaters so o gave up on hope ever to play a sandbox with nice and honest players who dont mind find out whole game themselfs and dont mind work alot on there character to become someone.

Hardcore died out a longtime ago.

My best experience where AC1&2- Darktide and Darkfall in lesser degree also lineage 2 early days.

Saga Of Ryzom had a great community but it was all to tame to friendly game kind of hippy flowers in your hair game, all you need is peace, love and understanding hehe.

I wish the good old Darktide times came back but in new game settings with todays graphics and hardcore game play no room for casuals and hold hands crap.

Somehow i can't bring myself get back to those old games with crappy graphics.

So i settle for The Witcher 2 or SKyrim games.

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  Zekiah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2540

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

3/01/12 3:24:23 PM#56
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock

Very few people I think will throw away money on something that isn't fun just because it's the only option they think they have.

People who don't like Pop music don't run out to the local Walmart to buy all the latest CD's just because so and so are on the top 10 charts.

Really? I used to do it. I have friends that still do it. And I know there are TONS of people here who do it.

Gamers are game-junkies jonesing for their next fix.

Not saying you are wrong, as we all have different experiences, but saying "I know a guy" is not an argument.

That being said, it is fair to assume there are people who stick around in games they only find "meh" due to the social connections. They stay for their friends/guilds even though they don't REALLY like the game that much.

 

Oh c'mon now, really. How many gamers that visit here on a regular basis do you imagine go out and purchase MMOs just because it's next on the release list? This isn't rocket science here, gamers are just plain junkies. I know.

*twitch twitch*

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7749

Logic be damned!

3/01/12 3:35:37 PM#57
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock

Not saying you are wrong, as we all have different experiences, but saying "I know a guy" is not an argument.

That being said, it is fair to assume there are people who stick around in games they only find "meh" due to the social connections. They stay for their friends/guilds even though they don't REALLY like the game that much.

Oh c'mon now, really. How many gamers that visit here on a regular basis do you imagine go out and purchase MMOs just because it's next on the release list? This isn't rocket science here, gamers are just plain junkies. I know.

*twitch twitch*

You do have a point sir. +1

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  phantomghost

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

3/01/12 3:37:16 PM#58

I will sub more than 1 month... until another good game comes out.

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  Zekiah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2540

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

3/01/12 3:48:17 PM#59
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Zekiah
Originally posted by BadSpock

Not saying you are wrong, as we all have different experiences, but saying "I know a guy" is not an argument.

That being said, it is fair to assume there are people who stick around in games they only find "meh" due to the social connections. They stay for their friends/guilds even though they don't REALLY like the game that much.

Oh c'mon now, really. How many gamers that visit here on a regular basis do you imagine go out and purchase MMOs just because it's next on the release list? This isn't rocket science here, gamers are just plain junkies. I know.

*twitch twitch*

You do have a point sir. +1

And this is why I believe the genre is in so much trouble. We're all a bunch of degenerate junkies waiting for our next fix while our "dealers" continue to cut down the product (dumb down) with junk.

If you'd ask me what I thought the MMO future looked like 15 years ago I'd probably smile and get wide-eyed about it. Ask me now and I'll get a real nasty look while spouting something about "what should have been".

It doesn't matter if someone likes themepark or sandbox games because we're all the victims of corporate greed and subpar games. The sooner we get into rehabilitation and understand why we're being treated this way then maybe something will change.

Maybe. One day. 

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

3/01/12 3:49:01 PM#60

The only way sandbox games are going to come into their own is when someone finally makes a *good* one again, and people get excited about it.  That's it.  Someone's going to have to build one and let it grow organically.  If it takes off to a decent degree, even as a strong niche market like EVE, then other games will come after it. 

Petitions and protests are a waste of time, because most of the current player base has no clue what a real sandbox game is, and has never tried one.  Investors and developers are only going to respond to success.  Someone is going to have to forge that path.

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

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