I see the buzz word "sandbox" thrown around so much. I'm not certian that any 2 people mean the same thing when they use the term.

Please, difine the meaning of the word "sandbox" as it pertains to the MMO.

Is it a game like Second Life or Tale in the Desert? Are there no quests in it at all? Is it something without any direction at all?

It seems that endgame in any MMO is a sandbox, and people complain there is nothing to do.

Or is it just game feature that you are talking about like crafting and housing?

When I see "sandbox" I think, no quests, no story, nothing but avatars and a combat system.

So, please describe exactly what a "sandbox" game is?

"Gosh, that sandbox game got 50 new subscribers today.  Maybe we should consider making a sandbox game."  -Themepark Developer A, who then alt-tabs and codes features for 300k+ players

The reality is players want a good game first, and a world second, and that means sandbox-lite (if it's sandbox at all.)

I think a game can feel like a sandbox while still being predominantly themepark (aka Skyrim) but overall the non-MMO sandbox market is way larger than the MMO sandbox market and that will likely never change.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by Rhavens

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Originally posted by Skooma2

You are not going to  get as many people as you would like to sign  your petition.  The reason that most people play  themeparks rather than sanboxes is that it is really only a sandbox for people who have been playing since the beginning.  If  you are not there at the start, you are not entering a sandbox; you are entering a themepark world created by the players who were there before you.   It is no longer a sandbox for you because you will encounter a world created by others.

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I don't agree (in a constructive way) with you. If we do a paralel with the real world, generations built the world before us and still, it constantly evolve. No one puts a path before me I must follow, I can choose whatever I want to do or wherever I want to go. A sandbox is as much a virtual world as it is a video game.

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this.

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That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.

** edit **
I have no interest in playing what is possibly the most boring game in existence just to prove a point. I will keep playing the games I like. For now, that's Minecraft.

 

Without going as extreme as giving the ability to players to "mod" the games, I think it would be possible to let them make significant changes to the world and the environment.

For example (I like giving examples lol): a faction builds a city with houses and infrastructures and another faction decides to attack this city and destroy it, this faction will then increase it's influence over the teritory. Ok that's a very simple overview of the situation but that would imply an evolution positive or negative on the environment. No one did mod the game but its world changed, physicaly (the city was destroyed) and culturaly (a faction expand its influence over another).

Originally posted by Keogh

I see the buzz word "sandbox" thrown around so much. I'm not certian that any 2 people mean the same thing when they use the term.

Please, difine the meaning of the word "sandbox" as it pertains to the MMO.

Is it a game like Second Life or Tale in the Desert? Are there no quests in it at all? Is it something without any direction at all?

It seems that endgame in any MMO is a sandbox, and people complain there is nothing to do.

Or is it just game feature that you are talking about like crafting and housing?

When I see "sandbox" I think, no quests, no story, nothing but avatars and a combat system.

 

So, please describe exactly what a "sandbox" game is?

How about you describe what it is "not"?! 

Forward momentum disallows dialectics, you're either with or "not with" on this one, sonny.

Originally posted by Axehilt

"Gosh, that sandbox game got 50 new subscribers today.  Maybe we should consider making a sandbox game."  -Themepark Developer A, who then alt-tabs and codes features for 300k+ players

The reality is players want a good game first, and a world second, and that means sandbox-lite (if it's sandbox at all.)

I think a game can feel like a sandbox while still being predominantly themepark (aka Skyrim) but overall the non-MMO sandbox market is way larger than the MMO sandbox market and that will likely never change.

The first part is what actually pops into my head. How many those "new subscribers" would be needed to even people think its big enough ?

5000 ? I don't think that would do it

10,000 ? I still dont think that would do much

100,000 I doubt there are that many people would do it.

Chances are, people wait for others to fight the fight and enjoy the result IF it works. If it doesn't work, they lose nothing.

The problem with "sandbox mechanics" is that this is exactly what happens.

I like games where players can have a visual impact on the environment (furniture, terrain deformation) but with some administration oversight. Personally I like the "mortal builders" program in Midkemia Online; players can apply for a building license and then they get to work with the staff on creating new areas.

Originally posted by Rhavens

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by Rhavens

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Originally posted by Skooma2

You are not going to  get as many people as you would like to sign  your petition.  The reason that most people play  themeparks rather than sanboxes is that it is really only a sandbox for people who have been playing since the beginning.  If  you are not there at the start, you are not entering a sandbox; you are entering a themepark world created by the players who were there before you.   It is no longer a sandbox for you because you will encounter a world created by others.

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I don't agree (in a constructive way) with you. If we do a paralel with the real world, generations built the world before us and still, it constantly evolve. No one puts a path before me I must follow, I can choose whatever I want to do or wherever I want to go. A sandbox is as much a virtual world as it is a video game.

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this.

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That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.

** edit **
I have no interest in playing what is possibly the most boring game in existence just to prove a point. I will keep playing the games I like. For now, that's Minecraft.

 

Without going as extreme as giving the ability to players to "mod" the games, I think it would be possible to let them make significant changes to the world and the environment.

For example (I like giving examples lol): a faction builds a city with houses and infrastructures and another faction decides to attack this city and destroy it, this faction will then increase it's influence over the teritory. Ok that's a very simple overview of the situation but that would imply an evolution positive or negative on the environment. No one did mod the game but its world changed, physicaly (the city was destroyed) and culturaly (a faction expand its influence over another).

Shadowbane.

It would take more than MMORPG.com forum hivemind to make sandboxes appear profitable.

I think the big problem is, the modern "sandbox" games have really put an unreasonable expectation on that form of game relating to an MMO. And the amount of people who want a TRUE sandbox game, vs ones who want a game with an easy progression and easier understood rewards for spending their time, is just not that great. There have been plenty of really fun sandbox MMOs in the last few years, but not a single one of them has had any real success. The one exception (depending on your definition) may be EVE, but that's also not a valid one as that's more due to the nature and setting of the game.

If you try to force companies like Blizzard into making MMOs more niche and complicated, it's going to go back to how it was in the days of UO and EQ where playing an MMO was a really lame thing to do, and most other gamers (and the general public) frowned upon it. Genres evolve, and just because the popular AAA games aren't made using the model you want to see, doesn't mean you need to protest them. Get people together, and play one of the actual games that fit the model you like. Support the developers because you like the game they made, not because you hate the game that other companies made. 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by Rhavens

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Originally posted by Skooma2

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That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.

 

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guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?

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yes! thats why i voted yes and I bought Metropolis  DVD,because i dont like EVE so much,now you will suffer themepark carebears!!suffer!

im watching it here now,can you feel my wrath!

this protest is growing !

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by ElderRat

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Originally posted by Rhavens

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Originally posted by Skooma2

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That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.

 

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guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?

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To me, it matters a lot more how well the game is written and whether or not the content is compelling. I won't buy or play a game because it's a theme park or because it's a sandbox. The game has to offer something I want to do, whether that's watch a story or build a house. That doesn't answer your question, but to me, it's irrelevant.

 

It doesn't sound, to me - my opinion of your posts(could be wrong), that you like any games right now.  Well they are not going to change  without a call for change.  All that is required for evil to win is that good men do nothing.  Now I am not saying the current situation  in mmo's is evil... but the point remains - if you do not like it and you do nothing then you are part of the problem not the solution. either way hope you find a game you like.

No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

Shouldn't we wait to see what TSW, GW2 and ArcheAge bring to the table? I mean aren't they doing exactly what we would be protesting for? 

Voted Yes, Just pm me and ill join , im pretty sure with a 30 man group all subbibg at the same time, itd be nice to play any game. 

Originally posted by Keogh

I see the buzz word "sandbox" thrown around so much. I'm not certian that any 2 people mean the same thing when they use the term.

Please, difine the meaning of the word "sandbox" as it pertains to the MMO.

Is it a game like Second Life or Tale in the Desert? Are there no quests in it at all? Is it something without any direction at all?

It seems that endgame in any MMO is a sandbox, and people complain there is nothing to do.

Or is it just game feature that you are talking about like crafting and housing?

When I see "sandbox" I think, no quests, no story, nothing but avatars and a combat system.

 

So, please describe exactly what a "sandbox" game is?

 there are alot of " opinions " of what a real sandbox game is.

the best one i played was Asherons Call, there was a huge map to explore and tons and tons of quest to do. but you didnt see NPCs with a icon above their head telling you to go kill 10 rats, quest in that game you had to find. let me give you a example.

when i was still starting off i saw a guy run threw my town with a bad ass looking sword that had fire all over it. so i asked him, hey mind telling me what droped that sword? he said he made it from items dropped off golems, so i went hunting golems for a week till i got enough of these items, then he explained how i needed to make the sword. i needed to find sombody with high alchemy to turn those items into a ingot to make my sword. once that was done i had my sword, but it was plain with no fire. he then said i needed to go to this portal way up in the mountains that will send me to a dungeon, at the bottom i will find the fire stone for the sword.

i got a crew together and we went off looking for this portal, few hours later we found it. I then wrote down the coordinates so i allways know the location of this portal for next time. after being lost for god knows how long in the dungeon and after recovering corpses and killing off tons of respawns, and doing skilled jumps to platforms to get across a pit. if one person fell everybody had to jump down or he would die down there alone. we finally made it to the end and got our fire stones. felt pretty epic because it was hard to do and took awhile to acomplish it.

i didnt need a NPC with a light above his head telling me what to do, i did

nt need a huge X on the map showing me were the portal was, i didnt need a instanced easymode dungeon with no respawns.

I was able to interact with the community find what i was looking for with my friends and finished a very challenging quest.

to me that is sandbox.

sombody out there was the first to find this portal and do this quest and by word of mouth it got around the community on what to do.

in todays games a quest like this is very simple, i talk to the NPC press yess a bunch of times not even careing what he is saying, press M bring up my map look for the big X go there kill some stuff, return to NPC get my XP then move on to the next boring same quest from another NPC. and if i run into players they are just some noob in my way.

Originally posted by ahnonamis

I think the big problem is, the modern "sandbox" games have really put an unreasonable expectation on that form of game relating to an MMO. And the amount of people who want a TRUE sandbox game, vs ones who want a game with an easy progression and easier understood rewards for spending their time, is just not that great. There have been plenty of really fun sandbox MMOs in the last few years, but not a single one of them has had any real success. The one exception (depending on your definition) may be EVE, but that's also not a valid one as that's more due to the nature and setting of the game.

 

If you try to force companies like Blizzard into making MMOs more niche and complicated, it's going to go back to how it was in the days of UO and EQ where playing an MMO was a really lame thing to do, and most other gamers (and the general public) frowned upon it. Genres evolve, and just because the popular AAA games aren't made using the model you want to see, doesn't mean you need to protest them. Get people together, and play one of the actual games that fit the model you like. Support the developers because you like the game they made, not because you hate the game that other companies made. 

 

What happens when they can't make games anymore simple and the playerbase is still to dumb to understand? What if, say in 10 years games like WoW will just be too complicated for the average player. You current themepark players will be in the exact same boat with us Sandboxers.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

 

So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!

No, this will do NOTHING.

The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

What happens when they can't make games anymore simple and the playerbase is still to dumb to understand? What if, say in 10 years games like WoW will just be too complicated for the average player. You current themepark players will be in the exact same boat with us Sandboxers.

Its allready happening ,mafia wars MMORPG,etc. WoW is too complicated sandbox for millions of people.

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

in todays games a quest like this is very simple, i talk to the NPC press yess a bunch of times not even careing what he is saying, press M bring up my map look for the big X go there kill some stuff, return to NPC get my XP then move on to the next boring same quest from another NPC. and if i run into players they are just some noob in my way.

So don't do the quests.

You are the one controlling the character. You can choose not to click on the NPC with the icon above its head.

This is what I don't think many of these hardcore sandbox types understand...

You are choosing to play the game the efficient / easy way because you are just as lazy as everyone else.

It's like, to me, when I was playing EvE online - farming missions was a good way for me to make money given my skill set, but it was boring as sin.