As someone who's lived long enough to see the multimedia entertainment industry completely go to shit, I can tell you that any individual hobby you may hold dear, whatever that may be, will instantly become less intellectual, less passionate, and less artistic the moment it becomes popular. You can blame what you like, but I point to the money and the grave stupidity in large collections of people. These two things always lead to corruption, and products created in such a manner as to maximize an audience and the profits therein.

Ultima Online: Renaissance

May 4, 2000 to March 7, 2001 (the release of Third Dawn garbage) was, without a doubt in my mind, the best MMORPG ever made and has yet to be matched.

Originally posted by Superduper69

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by crysent

Hello,

8 years or so ago when Star Wars Galaxies was released it was a full loot, merciless game...

Wait...

When was SWG full loot and merciless?

I don't remember that at all. SWG had completely consensual PvP and a light death penalty (some XP to grind off) and after coming to SWG from UO I thought SWG was total easy mode.

 

Yeah i don't remember SWG being full loot either and i was there at release.

Yeah. SWG was never Full Loot or Merciless.

Unless he means the merciless amount of bugs the game assulted you with.

Originally posted by Praetalus
 I wager that for every one person on a forum bitching and complaining, there are about 100 who are just playing a game happily. There's nothing wrong with the genre... there's plenty of players and money being made. Things may be going south for you, but its also you changing and getting older. The genre is fine. You just may have to leave it.

Coming to an MMO forum, saying Yay SWTOR! and telling a veteran player "the market moved on - get over it" is like going to an Audiophile forum, talking up your Sony X-Plodes and saying "your ears are too old, because the majority happily buy these"

For every one person that can upgrade their own RAM there are 100 that can't. You don't ask them their opinions when buying a PC, and you certainly don't let them influence the direction of PC hardware technology. For any given topic, the masses are wrong - there are only a few people not talking completely out of their asses - on any subject. The masses or mainstream is a market for dumbed down, bubblegum, teeny-bopper bullshit. It's like that for music... it's like that for everything and it's been like that forever. It's what happens naturally when a group of business people get together and decide the direction of something previously spearheaded by enthusiasts.

That's the other word for we forum goers - enthusiasts. We are MMO enthusiasts and many of us have been MMO enthusiasts before the MMO masses/mainstream were born. A lot of us have played all of the games. All of them. Some see a decline and the only way to see that decline is from a perspective or vantage point - an overview granted by experience. For example, you can't just go play EQ and know what EQ represents - or what its milestone represents. Besides the fact the game rules changed, back when EQ released there was nothing really like it to play. If you wanted to play an MMO, you had no other option - you worked through the sucky aspects... you had to. Some of it was hard, but making it through was that much more of an achievement and after accomplishing that achievement you could actually understand why the mechanics had to suck. In other words - the mechanics of boat-care are much more onerous for my sailboat than they are for a rowboat. They have to be, there are more features. And the rewards are better ("I'm C7, what are you drinking? Wanna go camp on the lake?") The rowboat is easier, yes, but that's because there are less features (no bed). Taking a girl out in a rowboat loses its charm when you've had a sailboat.

Today, you've played WoW, and Wizard 101, and Rift and on and on. You can't have the same EQ experience - you can just say "this is stupid compared to..." and ADD yourself to the next game. Or worse yet, you can just buy your achievements in some cash shop and pretend you're playing a game. But you're not - games have something to beat and there are losers. Most of the MMOs today are merely activities. SWTOR is an activity - you can't lose; you can't even be bad at it. You might want an activity and that's fine, but don't make the mistake of coming to an enthusiast site claiming your X-Plodes are the bomb because more people buy them. The only thing that says is that you're one of the masses.

To the original poster &  other's dissastified  gamers. If  you are looking for  fresh, innovative ideas & a well thought out design philosophy on MMO's,  check out Pathfinder Online.  Veteran gamers or new people that are not happy with today's current  crop of MMO's, this game shows a clear new vision. This game has alot of promise.  After reading thier blogs,  I believe we have a group of people who actually care about the IP first  & wish to create a  feature rich virtual world.  I applaud their efforts to break from the status quo. 

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Dedicated "hardcore" gamers can still create their own fun in modern MMO games, and there are a good number of sandbox titles available -

however most of them would rather just bitch than do EXACTLY what they claim they used to do:

MAKE YOUR OWN FUN instead of following developer created joy rides.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Dedicated "hardcore" gamers can still create their own fun in modern MMO games, and there are a good number of sandbox titles available -

however most of them would rather just bitch than do EXACTLY what they claim they used to do:

MAKE YOUR OWN FUN instead of following developer created joy rides.

Yup.

Check out my posts in some of those 'socialization blablabla' threads and you can see that communities still are alive.

It just takes more effort now because players aren't forced to come to you and ask you for groups, so now you actually have to apply to a social guild and .. well, get social with people.

The social nature of the game is no longer given to you on a platter.  You need to put in your own effort and get into the community.  Personally great for people like me, since I only receive guild apps from players who really, really want to be social in a game.  Not so great for the people who want to feel extra speshul because everyone relies on them.

Originally posted by Rusque

You're right, it seems you don't understand basic economics.  The demand is there, just not for the games you want to play. People vote with their wallets, so there you go.

It always sucks to be on the side that gets crowded out, but things change and whether they're better or worse is a matter of perspective.

This.

If you are not on the "winning" side, there is no one to blame but that your "group" don't have enough buying power.

Plus, MMOs are only entertainment. If you don't feel it is going your way, find some OTHER entertainment. Movies, books, comics, SP video games .. there is no shortage of good fun out there.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rusque

You're right, it seems you don't understand basic economics.  The demand is there, just not for the games you want to play. People vote with their wallets, so there you go.

It always sucks to be on the side that gets crowded out, but things change and whether they're better or worse is a matter of perspective.

This.

If you are not on the "winning" side, there is no one to blame but that your "group" don't have enough buying power.

Plus, MMOs are only entertainment. If you don't feel it is going your way, find some OTHER entertainment. Movies, books, comics, SP video games .. there is no shortage of good fun out there.

Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

 

Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

Good luck.

How far are you on this endeavor? Is there a MILLION player virtual world yet? Personally, i think this is a case of wishful thinking. However, you obviously will disagree.

So tell which is the AAA sandbox game with a million players, ok?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

 

Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

Good luck.

How far are you on this endeavor? Is there a MILLION player virtual world yet? Personally, i think this is a case of wishful thinking. However, you obviously will disagree.

So tell which is the AAA sandbox game with a million players, ok?

whizzzzzzzzzzzz

Yes WoW did this.

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

Originally posted by phantomghost

Yes WoW did this.

 

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

I guess facts are beyond some people.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by phantomghost

Yes WoW did this.

 

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

I guess facts are beyond some people.

 

Ok?

I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by phantomghost

Yes WoW did this.

 

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

I guess facts are beyond some people.

 

I guess someone doesn't know what the word AVERAGE means. Many old people have started playing. Like 60-70. Now go hide your shame and come back when you don't sound so uneducated.

Originally posted by phantomghost

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by phantomghost

Yes WoW did this.

 

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

I guess facts are beyond some people.

 

Ok?

I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

 

Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

Now you admit most of the WOW players are adult?

If so, .. what if there are a few more children?

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

 

I guess someone doesn't know what the word AVERAGE means. Many old people have started playing. Like 60-70. Now go hide your shame and come back when you don't sound so uneducated.

You have data on that? Just yanging stuff from your head does not make it true.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by phantomghost

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by phantomghost

Yes WoW did this.

 

They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

I guess facts are beyond some people.

 

Ok?

I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

 

Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

Now you admit most of the WOW players are adult?

If so, .. what if there are a few more children?

Really an average out of 8 Million players and you think you know the demographic at all? You're just saying whatever you can to be right. There are 8 million players from age 8-80. Geez I wonder what the average age of everyone who watches the Fox Network.

I know a 70 year old man that plays and I know an 8 year odl who plays. That is all I need to back it up.