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Star Wars: The Old Republic

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General Discussion  » Do developers REALLY listen to themselves talk? [MassEffect MMO hinted]

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40 posts found
  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/29/12 10:22:23 PM#21
Originally posted by dubyahite
Also, if you think violence is the solution to games being made that aren't to your liking, you should seek professional help.

I am not trying to insult you, but if that is seriously what you believe, you are a danger to others and need to be treated for mental disorders.

I was talking the FUTURE HERe.. taking EvE online as an example. If you read up on what happend this summer you know what im talking about. This is the first baby step. But as people get more and more into gaming it will start to effect IRL more and more.

Look at the avrage Soccer game in Europe.. you have rabbid fans Rioting in the streets and fighting. Soccer is the Old games, what people did for FUN back in the day when there was no computers and no television etc. And these days people take thier teams so seriously that they go out and try and kill one another.. Is this Rational? NO. But is it a fact of the world we live in? YES. And as games become more and more mainstream.. It would not surprise me if I see RiOTS in the streets 20 years from now when a game comes out and the FANS are unhappy... that is what I was getting at here...

  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

2/29/12 10:23:33 PM#22
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by dubyahite
Quote 3 was obviously a joke if you don't take it out of context and twist it to fit your weird agenda.

The rest seem pretty much non noteworthy if you ask me. Not sure wha the point of this is.

The problem here is that pretty much everyone i linked this to didn't take it as a joke. It's very hard to get the impression of a joke simply from an interview put into text like that.

IF it really was a joke then the interviewer writing this up for PA should have annotated "jokingly" or something akin to that. Simply putting "as so and so laughed" isn't straight forward enough to be considered a joke. I've read many interviews that were serious, but included the line "as so and so laughed" etc.

"“Now that we’ve learned MMOs are really easy to make, and simple to run after the fact, we’re on it!” Dr. Zeschuk said, laughing. "

Really? That's hard to understand he was laughing/joking while saying it?

 

Some people are just terrible at reading sarcasm.

 

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  jesusdiamond

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 21

2/29/12 10:30:31 PM#23

After playing Sweator and seeing the debacle that has turned into I think I see what happens to these large corps.

 

People who are better at glad handing get into positions of power. They have no game experience BUT they're friendly and always seem to have a great attitude. (that's what the person who put them there thinks) The reality is that the leadership that made BW great in the first place must have checked out after EA purchased them.

 

I think the main difference between companies like BW/EA and Arenanet/Trion/Riot is that the executives at EA are more interested in getting into a top paying position for a few years than actually listening to customers. Think about it. You land one of those top EA job's and you're set for life. How much you wanna bet that the top executives of BW are thinking more about corporate advancement than the game?

 

That being said I BW was one of my favorite dev's till now and I don't think I'll ever be able to really trust BW or EA again with anything as serious as a mmo. 

 

They make good sport's games though I hear.

  Southpaw.Gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/08
Posts: 578

Full Sail University - Game Design Student

2/29/12 10:30:54 PM#24

If they take a TPS / FPS style RPG like ME and turn it into a themepark MMO I will forever hate them for tainting a good IP.

 

ME should remain a gun game (TPS / FPS) and be a sandbox.  Anything less would destroy my personal vision of what playing ME means.

 

Hell SWTOR should have been a sandbox as well.

Full Sail University - Game Design

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  2/29/12 10:49:29 PM#25
Originally posted by Bainwalker

If they take a TPS / FPS style RPG like ME and turn it into a themepark MMO I will forever hate them for tainting a good IP.

 

ME should remain a gun game (TPS / FPS) and be a sandbox.  Anything less would destroy my personal vision of what playing ME means.

 

Hell SWTOR should have been a sandbox as well.

An opinion, apparently, that 1.7million other people don't share (albeit that was months ago they had those numbers). However, I'm curious as to the number of sandbox players that are waiting in the rafters for a truly good sandbox MMORPG. However, only small underfunded indie companies have been developing sandboxes because huge AAA companies don't want to "Gamble" anymore on products. They want surefire-win products, and will dumb them down as far as they need to in order to make a profit. However, just because 1.7million people (again, months ago) don't agree doesn't mean the opinion is invalid.

 

A case of corporatism invading the MMO market unfortunately, but that's how anything successful goes :(.

 

I too agree with you that if the ME universe is turned into a SWTOR-line themepark it'll ruin the ME IP as a whole, but as always that's simply my opinion :).

 

-Faded

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/29/12 10:58:16 PM#26
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Bainwalker

If they take a TPS / FPS style RPG like ME and turn it into a themepark MMO I will forever hate them for tainting a good IP.

 

ME should remain a gun game (TPS / FPS) and be a sandbox.  Anything less would destroy my personal vision of what playing ME means.

 

Hell SWTOR should have been a sandbox as well.

An opinion, apparently, that 1.7million other people don't share (albeit that was months ago they had those numbers). However, I'm curious as to the number of sandbox players that are waiting in the rafters for a truly good sandbox MMORPG. However, only small underfunded indie companies have been developing sandboxes because huge AAA companies don't want to "Gamble" anymore on products. They want surefire-win products, and will dumb them down as far as they need to in order to make a profit. However, just because 1.7million people (again, months ago) don't agree doesn't mean the opinion is invalid.

 

A case of corporatism invading the MMO market unfortunately, but that's how anything successful goes :(.

 

I too agree with you that if the ME universe is turned into a SWTOR-line themepark it'll ruin the ME IP as a whole, but as always that's simply my opinion :).

 

-Faded

I also think that a lot of the current themepark market would Jump on a more sandboxy game. Because lets face it they have like us played the Themeparks to death. But old games like EvE online just are 2 sandboxy.. what we need is someone to be a smart as Blizzard was. And steel all the good stuff from sanboxes "freedom being the top thing to take" and make a new Gen MMO. This will be the hit of the future.  That is what I truly belive...

  dubyahite

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/11
Posts: 2506

2/29/12 10:59:02 PM#27
"I too agree with you that if the ME universe is turned into a SWTOR-line themepark it'll ruin the ME IP as a whole, but as always that's simply my opinion :)."



What about mass effect says sandbox to you? It is a linear story based game and doesn't resemble a sandbox at all.

You are saying "if they don't make this franchise that is entirely based on linear story based gameplay a sandbox it will ruin the entire franchise!"


Doesn't make sense. If they make it a sandbox they will be straying far far away from the franchise.

If you play mass effect, you are playing a linear story based game. There is nothing about it that is sandbox.

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  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

2/29/12 11:06:29 PM#28
Originally posted by dubyahite
"I too agree with you that if the ME universe is turned into a SWTOR-line themepark it'll ruin the ME IP as a whole, but as always that's simply my opinion :)."



What about mass effect says sandbox to you? It is a linear story based game and doesn't resemble a sandbox at all.

You are saying "if they don't make this franchise that is entirely based on linear story based gameplay a sandbox it will ruin the entire franchise!"


Doesn't make sense. If they make it a sandbox they will be straying far far away from the franchise.

If you play mass effect, you are playing a linear story based game. There is nothing about it that is sandbox.

Many sanbox games are to sandboxy... The death penelties might have to be tuned down etc. BUT FREEDOM is what people want and a chanse to Plant roots in the game world. Also if you get people to plant ROOTS they stay. Im going to bring up farmville here. People like that game because they build stuff in it. They get glowing pigs... New houses etc... People like to build stuff in games. They also like the freedom.. That means taking it on your own pace and being able to do what you want.. Like SKYRIM for example. Its not a sandbox but it gives the player freedom to do what he wants when he want within the limitation of the game. I think mass effect works a little the same? you can do side things? or am I wrong? That is were the sandbox feeling comes in. It dosent take much to make it sandboxy. But the Rewards are great, as people have alot of things to do in OFF hours.. When there is nothing happening people can still feel that are doing something... instead of spaming LFG for the next raid... they might be putting designs on Armour or making dresses or watering thier Virtual Garden.. and getting those Rare Roses they want... you follow me :). Or they might be brewing that special Beer for thier Tavern for the evning when there will be a COOL RP event etc.. People need TOOLS to feel part of the world.. and gettting people alot of TOOLS to build and create is a good thing.. Minecraft?? Farmvill?? and other mini games what do they have incomon.. you craft things to expand... Nothing is stopinp modern developers from bringing stuff like this into the MMO market....

Key to a future game is giving players more freedom and getting people to fiddle around with stuff ingame.. Also GIRLS LIKE TO do off story things. And were GIRLS GO SO DO BOY's..

So a future game needs a system to make people form ROOTS inside the game and build community and it needs farmville stuff that girls like and you have Success!!!! that is what I belive.. A pure sanbox might not make it but some sort of Hybrid will be a HUGE HIT!!

  mbrodie

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 785

2/29/12 11:20:22 PM#29

well fingers crossed (seeing as how mmo's are easy to make an all) they decide to rehash the butchered hero engine they used for TOR to use the ME MMO, so then at least i know i'll never touch another EA / BW game in exsistence... let's face it, if they dont goto the drawing bored.. learn about core mmo mechanics and develop there own in house game engine not purchase a beta quality product and butcher it to where it works less then when they originally got it and then sell us a beta quality product then they might actually stand a chance at making something good and unique

 

otherwise... i'm filtering them out of my web browser so i never have to see anything related to them ever again

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

2/29/12 11:24:38 PM#30

"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."

Spoken like a true hack.

I'm pretty sure Zeschuk wasn't joking when he said this.  Actually, I haven't heard anything this company has said since because I stopped listening to them.  They clearly have a tenuous grasp on reality and think they know a hell of a lot more about MMOs than they actually do.  But I guess folks are starting to figure that out for themselves now.

  evianwater

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 313

2/29/12 11:32:46 PM#31
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Content Warning: The opinions expressed below are in the context of an MMO veteran whom dislikes Linear-MMOs to the extreme. Please understand & be respectful, Thank you :)!

-------------------------

I asked this to myself after reading an Article posted on the 24th from the "Founders" of Bioware talking to Penny Arcade about their company, SWTOR's launch, and Mass Effect.

 

The following quotes struck me completely offguard with the sense of "D...Did they REALLY just say that?".

 

Quote #1: “We’re the fastest-growing MMO in history, and it’s really a credit to our fans,” Muzyka said. “The launch was fantastic.”

 

Quote #2: "The final beta test was actually larger than the launch itself, and Zeshuk remembered watching the number of players logging into the game, while other MMO veterans remarked that the numbers had surpassed the launch of other titles they had worked on. “You just passed our launch,” someone would say. The numbers would continue to climb. “You just passed our launch,” another developer would point out. The numbers continued to climb. "

 

Quote #3: “Now that we’ve learned MMOs are really easy to make, and simple to run after the fact, we’re on it!” Dr. Zeschuk said, laughing. “The interesting thing, the implication of a Mass Effect MMO has so many expectations. We already bit off a big thing to chew with a Star Wars MMO, and that’s not so small,” he said. "

 

Quote #4: "The possibility space, that’s a term that I heard Will Wright say about ten years ago, and it really struck me,” Muzyka continued, pointing out that most Bioware properties could work as MMOs. “When you deliver a game, and you deliver it for a player, you have to capture what they think is the possibility space. You need to let them do everything they think they should do, and you can’t block them from doing anything they think they should be able to do. You have to nail all the features and content that should be in that possibility space.“ He paused for a moment.

Mass Effect is a big possibility space.”

 

 

Now, I'm not going to take the massive amount of time & typing to comment on each one of these quotes as I highlighted in blue the areas I really wanted to focus on. As a whole, I don't believe Bioware really GET what they're even doing with MMOs. It almost sounds like they're in denial land considering betas are ALWAYS larger than any game's launch. Even RIFT had a multi-million user login beta. Not to mention Age of Conan that had so many unique logins during beta & open beta that the servers they had kept crashing (albeit their setup was horrid, but that's besides the point).

As a conversation went on my clan's teamspeak. I REALLY hope Bioware decides to stop working in the MMO market. In my opinion, they'll only start butchering their own IPs into nothingless. Bioware should concentrate all of their time on single-player games, as that's what they're good at!

 

What's your thoughts on the matter :)?

 

Article Link

 

 

You lost me when you failed to realize the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm in Quote #3...

 

I really don't understand the point of your post,

 

Quote 1 - SWTOR did have a fantastic launch, anyone who says differently has a very very jaded point of view. Compared to every other MMO launch I've been apart of, it was nearly flawless. (When referring to a launch, you're generally talking about server stabillity, general game access and playability. )

 

Just try and reflect back to the massive bugs, downtime, exploits and all that from the most popular MMOs (EQ, UO, WOW, DDO...etc etc) Hell WoW was barely playable the first few weeks. The only game that I think had a better launch was Rift.

 

Quote 2 - Apart from the quote itself being a little convoluted and poorly worded..what's your beef ?

 

Quote 3 - See above.

 

Quote 4 - Again I don't understand why this upsets you ? That he thinks an IP should be allowed to flourish in whatever form the customer wants ? That's..bad ? 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/01/12 1:09:40 PM#32

“Now that we’ve learned MMOs are really easy to make, and simple to run after the fact, we’re on it!” Dr. Zeschuk said, laughing. “The interesting thing, the implication of a Mass Effect MMO has so many expectations. We already bit off a big thing to chew with a Star Wars MMO, and that’s not so small,” he said. "

 

This begs the questions: 

  • If it was so easy, why have you refused to release sub numbers since the 1.7 million active accounts = box sales number?   
  • Why do you keep avoiding that like the plague?  
  • Why did you conflate January total sales with December forced subs to kid people that only 15% left?   
  • Why do you lower server caps to hide the decline and force us to re-figure our population decline curves?  
  • Why do you tell us irrelevent information like "average time played" which is both typical for MMOs and irrelevent to subscription level? 

 

I mean, if it was all that and a bag of chips, I know you'd be bragging...   If you still had 1.7 million subs, you'd still be bragging...  If your sales hadn't hit the proverbial toilet, you'd still be braggin...

 

 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/01/12 1:11:37 PM#33
Originally posted by dubyahite
Quote 3 was obviously a joke if you don't take it out of context and twist it to fit your weird agenda.


The rest seem pretty much non noteworthy if you ask me. Not sure wha the point of this is.

 

Like making fat jokes at fat kids kind of joke.   There was pure arrogance in those quotes, the joke was hollow and self-serving.

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1266

3/01/12 1:15:50 PM#34
Originally posted by SignusM

Of course they don't get MMOs. They made what they always make, a singleplayer game, but they bolted on some basic COOP functionality.

This.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

3/01/12 4:34:26 PM#35
Originally posted by mmoDAD
Originally posted by SignusM

Of course they don't get MMOs. They made what they always make, a singleplayer game, but they bolted on some basic COOP functionality.

This.

Nothing wrong with this .. if this is what players enjoy.

This at least attracts 2M box sales with 1.7M subs. Personally I unsub because i think it is not polished enough .. but whatever floats 1.7M players boat is fine.

Now of course you will say TOR will lose all subs soon. I think until someone has solid new numbers, this is way pre-mature to forecast its doom. Just like many has forecasted WOW's doom for year, and it is still the biggset MMO out there.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/01/12 4:53:39 PM#36
Originally posted by Unlight

"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."

Spoken like a true hack.

I'm pretty sure Zeschuk wasn't joking when he said this.  Actually, I haven't heard anything this company has said since because I stopped listening to them.  They clearly have a tenuous grasp on reality and think they know a hell of a lot more about MMOs than they actually do.  But I guess folks are starting to figure that out for themselves now.

yea unlike the other quote about running an MMO being easy I didn't think he was being sarcastic at all and was dead serious on this point.. but this right here is why I think so many themeparks failed in the past and why I feel swtor is going into a downward spiral. I still can't beleive people don't see warcraft's insane was in a way a fluke. It was all about right time in the right market. This is not the right time OR the right market for another themepark clone in my eyes and don't know why developers keep thinking it is the right time when time and time again the games just don't even come close to competing with warcraft's subscription base.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  xenogias

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1945

3/01/12 5:00:21 PM#37

The only thing this tells me is to only ever expect single player titles from Bioware, which is fine with me. They excell at it.  To me thats what SWTOR is and if they make a ME mmo I will treat it the same way as well.  I will buy it, get to max level/finish whatever the story is before the free month is up and enjoy myself.

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  3/01/12 5:04:36 PM#38
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by dubyahite
Quote 3 was obviously a joke if you don't take it out of context and twist it to fit your weird agenda.


The rest seem pretty much non noteworthy if you ask me. Not sure wha the point of this is.

 

Like making fat jokes at fat kids kind of joke.   There was pure arrogance in those quotes, the joke was hollow and self-serving.

This is primarily the issue i had with quote #3 when I read it a couple times. It may have been a joke, but the arrogance is is still there, and that really gets to me when it comes from a company like Bioware.

 

Bioware, to me, is a company that you expect excellence from, and when they release such a trashy product like SWTOR it just gets under your skin :(.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/01/12 5:05:00 PM#39
Originally posted by xenogias

The only thing this tells me is to only ever expect single player titles from Bioware, which is fine with me. They excell at it.  To me thats what SWTOR is and if they make a ME mmo I will treat it the same way as well.  I will buy it, get to max level/finish whatever the story is before the free month is up and enjoy myself.

aside from the main story and JUST the story part I don't see how this game excels in anyway as a single player game.. combat is generic MMO stuff which is almost always a step down from standard single player games. Then you got the fact it's a lot harder to make a single player story  work in a MMO world because of the cause and effect of choices not having effect in the overall world, where in a single player game the world can shape to whatever the developer wishes since they are only worried about a single persons experience.. I think the argument it's fine to look at this game as a single player game is ridiculous since it obviously was not meant to be a single player game and not advertised as one either.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

3/01/12 8:46:30 PM#40

 

Okay people who hate TOR:

 

I'm with you.  Hell, I'm always down for baiting fanbois.  Yet let us do so intelligently.

First:

The statement about MMO's being "easy to make" was obviously sarcasm.

Second, in this very article, they shy away from a Mass Effect MMO.  The question was sprung on them.  They had to give an answer beyond a simple yes or no, which they did, and they also mentioned they really weren't keen on making it.

 

Which is a good thing.  Mass Effect really wouldn't work as an MMO.  it is a large world with a lot of stuff, but it won't work for various reasons.

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