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Star Wars Galaxies

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General Discussion  » Lucasarts called the shots with SWG and SOE cares about their fans

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237 posts found
  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  2/29/12 4:07:18 PM#201
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Burntvet

And that is all on SOE, nothing to do with LA.

Is that simple enough for you?

SWG failed and was closed because of SOE's atrocious decison making. lack of vision,  and terrible coding/game management more than another other factor(s) and 10X more than anything LA did or said.

 

 it was LA that spoke out in favor of the NGE - downplaying what SOE had created for launch

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts.
"There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer.

We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

 

 

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Obviously SOE dveloped the NGE, they were the developers for SWG, as Bioware is for SWTOR.

It was LA who wanted the NGE, they were the ones who wanted SWG to get better. If they just let SOE just continue with CU or pre-CU, it could have been awesome, but LA interfered and changed the game twice, and resulted in code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code, and it ended it up being a coding disaster. Not even the best developers could have fixed SWG. SOE could have fixed it but it meant rewriting the code from the ground up - not a viable solution.

I did not see anything in Rubenfields quote to say that they did not care about existing players. What I saw in it was SOE was trying not to get the NGE implented, but LA won out.

You are reading it all wrong. There is no conspiracies. It was all down to LA - plain and simple.

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  2/29/12 4:20:25 PM#202
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by jinxxed0

(mod edit)

Because it's fascinating to discuss how the largest IP in the history of humanity, failed as an MMO.

The fact that SOE and LA let SWG fail, baffles me!

SWG is a textbook of mistakes made DAILY and a refusal to understand so many things - like the importance of the license you hold,  the audience you're targeting, the importance of listening to and understanding negative feedback as well as praise and the risks associated with greed...SWG is a blunder that should never have happened...yet...it did?! I find it utterly fascinating to discuss it...even with fanbois like Hipiap or Super, because they help me view it from another  perspective.

SWTOR is another blunder on a different scale. There is simply not much variety in it to do. Nice to look at, just plain boring.

If they just keep adding Flashpoints and Operations to SWTOR, which is like DLC for consoles, and not enhancing it by adding in more systems, which gives the players enough content to mess around with daily and makes the monthly sub worth it, then it is going to be more dead than SWG in 8 years time.

SWTOR needs to be a social living breathing world which SWG still was on Dec 15th 2011. At the moment SWTOR is just like a single player game with onlin multiplayer options, with DLC added every 2 months - a rip off

  JYCowboy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/05
Posts: 660

SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-AhaziDCUO: Blue Horizon(CIA)STO: John West(USS Texas)NCC-91836

2/29/12 4:32:28 PM#203
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Burntvet

And that is all on SOE, nothing to do with LA.

Is that simple enough for you?

SWG failed and was closed because of SOE's atrocious decison making. lack of vision,  and terrible coding/game management more than another other factor(s) and 10X more than anything LA did or said.

 

 it was LA that spoke out in favor of the NGE - downplaying what SOE had created for launch

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts.
"There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer.

We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

 

 

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Burntvet I totally understand your SOE targeting per thier words,

However, LA was totally responcible for the Market Research of SWG.  It was thier exit questionairs and research groups that led them to agree with SOE to alienate the existing veterians for the more desireable WOW demographic.  Did SOE come to this idea on thier own?  Did thier past and congruent history of keeping games alive and or keeping changes only minimal compared to the NGE follow in suit?  NO, "hand-in-hand" they chose to make these changes that lead to the down fall of SWG.  I further say SOE collectively didn't have the guts to make such a decision that would cost them subs.  LA knew this hadn't been done before but was willing to gamble.  When Freeman talks of "head guys" don't you think Jim Ward was there? SWG was one of LA's largest ventures at the time.

I'm a Star Wars fanatic ( fanboi), but I have got to say LA is not loving me.  Look at TOR and tell me you can't see the NGE formula refined.  Dallas Dixon and other LA emplyees worked on SWG as they have with TOR. SOE rushed dev of SWG and it showed at launch and for years after.  They deserve to sit in the mess they created ... and did for eight years.  LA is at fault for caring for only making a "money tree" and not pleasing thier fans first.

  NagilumSadow

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/12
Posts: 242

2/29/12 5:22:13 PM#204
Originally posted by tixylix

Everquest - Luclin + PoP

Planetside - CC + BFRS

Everquest 2 - Rushed and then turned into a WoW clone

etc etc.

 

SOE ruined SWG more than LA did.

 

The only thing keeping me from playing eq2 is that horrid 3d engine. 


http://wyrdgaming.blogspot.com/

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2724

2/29/12 5:29:44 PM#205
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Burntvet

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Obviously SOE dveloped the NGE, they were the developers for SWG, as Bioware is for SWTOR.

It was LA who wanted the NGE, they were the ones who wanted SWG to get better. If they just let SOE just continue with CU or pre-CU, it could have been awesome, but LA interfered and changed the game twice, and resulted in code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code, and it ended it up being a coding disaster. Not even the best developers could have fixed SWG. SOE could have fixed it but it meant rewriting the code from the ground up - not a viable solution.

I did not see anything in Rubenfields quote to say that they did not care about existing players. What I saw in it was SOE was trying not to get the NGE implented, but LA won out.

You are reading it all wrong. There is no conspiracies. It was all down to LA - plain and simple.

In case you missed it from the Rubenfeld blog:

 

We told them. “If you do this(the NGE), you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.”

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.  (
Showing definitively and without question that SOE didn't give a crap about anyone playing SWG)

The "they" is the SOE executives directing the NGE development, as alluded to in the Freeman blog.

Keep on howling, maybe the moon will answer.....

 

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2724

2/29/12 5:42:18 PM#206
Originally posted by JYCowboy
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Burntvet

And that is all on SOE, nothing to do with LA.

Is that simple enough for you?

SWG failed and was closed because of SOE's atrocious decison making. lack of vision,  and terrible coding/game management more than another other factor(s) and 10X more than anything LA did or said.

 

 it was LA that spoke out in favor of the NGE - downplaying what SOE had created for launch

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts.
"There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer.

We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

 

 

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Burntvet I totally understand your SOE targeting per thier words,

However, LA was totally responcible for the Market Research of SWG.  It was thier exit questionairs and research groups that led them to agree with SOE to alienate the existing veterians for the more desireable WOW demographic.  Did SOE come to this idea on thier own?  Did thier past and congruent history of keeping games alive and or keeping changes only minimal compared to the NGE follow in suit?  NO, "hand-in-hand" they chose to make these changes that lead to the down fall of SWG.  I further say SOE collectively didn't have the guts to make such a decision that would cost them subs.  LA knew this hadn't been done before but was willing to gamble.  When Freeman talks of "head guys" don't you think Jim Ward was there? SWG was one of LA's largest ventures at the time.

I'm a Star Wars fanatic ( fanboi), but I have got to say LA is not loving me.  Look at TOR and tell me you can't see the NGE formula refined.  Dallas Dixon and other LA emplyees worked on SWG as they have with TOR. SOE rushed dev of SWG and it showed at launch and for years after.  They deserve to sit in the mess they created ... and did for eight years.  LA is at fault for caring for only making a "money tree" and not pleasing thier fans first.

I never said and do not believe that LA had no role in deciding to do the NGE. They obviously supported the idea.

SOE, as joint publisher had just as much responsibilty for the decision.

However, SOE was also responsible for designing and coding the disaster (which they did) and that is all on them. Many SWG fans blame the adject lack of quality of the NGEd game for making the game terrible, as much as  the changes themselves. I agree with this opinion.

So, if the decision to do the NGE was 50/50 on SOE and LA, and the other half of the reason the NGE failed so spectacularly is that it was very badly coded / tested (and it was), then the majority of the blame for the NGE's destruction of SWG goes to SOE, be it 75% or not. (As an aside: had SWG-NGE actually "worked" out of the gate, I do not expect the customer response would have been quite as severe, but SOE codes like I sing opera: badly and with no skill whatsoever.)

The whole entire point of this thread, put all of the blame on LA and none on SOE, when there is mountains of evidence to the contrary. No one but a hardcore apologist, having ignored all the evidence, would make such a contention.

LA, being greedy, just wanted more money. That doesn't bother me as much as SOE's Smed repeated lying, the crappy job coding, the duplicitous ToOW expansion scam, the abject disrespect to the the paying customers and all that rest that was on SOE. All of which are facts.

 

As to TOR, I do not disagree, that was a POS that I did not buy after playing the beta.

 

 

 

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  2/29/12 6:10:28 PM#207
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Burntvet

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Obviously SOE dveloped the NGE, they were the developers for SWG, as Bioware is for SWTOR.

It was LA who wanted the NGE, they were the ones who wanted SWG to get better. If they just let SOE just continue with CU or pre-CU, it could have been awesome, but LA interfered and changed the game twice, and resulted in code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code upon code, and it ended it up being a coding disaster. Not even the best developers could have fixed SWG. SOE could have fixed it but it meant rewriting the code from the ground up - not a viable solution.

I did not see anything in Rubenfields quote to say that they did not care about existing players. What I saw in it was SOE was trying not to get the NGE implented, but LA won out.

You are reading it all wrong. There is no conspiracies. It was all down to LA - plain and simple.

In case you missed it from the Rubenfeld blog:

 

We told them. “If you do this(the NGE), you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.”

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.  (
Showing definitively and without question that SOE didn't give a crap about anyone playing SWG)

The "they" is the SOE executives directing the NGE development, as alluded to in the Freeman blog.

Keep on howling, maybe the moon will answer.....

 

IT was LA they were telling, not SOE

Here is Julio Torres explaining the loss of of subscribers, which is more than alluding to, it is coming straight out of the horses mouth!

GameSpy: Many players feel that Dallas Dickinson made it seem that most of SWG's existing community was in favor of the change. Those who mentioned this, of course, disagreed with his prognosis. Can you comment on this?

JT: We appreciate the concerns of all Galaxies players. Though we are taking Galaxies in a direction that can be enjoyed by all players (current, new, and prospective), we know that not all of our current players are going to be receptive to this direction simply based on the fact that it is something different that they aren't yet used to. There was a large outcry initially at last spring's Combat Upgrade, but when all was said and done, we had only lost a very small number of players. We anticipate the same thing to happen here once players have given the new enhancements a chance.

And explained in this video at about 1:50, again straight from the horses mouth

All the evidence points directly to LA, anything that points to SOE is just make believe "alluded to"

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2724

2/29/12 7:38:58 PM#208

You sir, are a fanatic.

Such are described as someone who won't change their mind and can't change the subject.

 

In case you have never worked for a corpaorate entity, I will make it very clear:

When Rubenfeld and Freeman talk about "we told them" and "they told us" that is obviously talking about the leadership of SOE, because people from LA, no matter what the position, do NOT talk to lower level devs about things. SOE executives do that. No LA people. It is just not done. They do not give them instructions, orders, or demand anything from them.

In spite of all evidence, and the words of the people responsible for  the NGE, THEMSELVES, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, including Smed and other SOE people, you contine to assert that LA is wholely responsible for the disaster, when people from SOE admitted publically and on many occasions that the NGE originated with SOE, and SOE programmed the whole thing. Further, you assert SOE "cares about their players" when two sources, Freeman and Rubenfeld, both said that SOE knew they were going to lose the SWG playerbase as a result of the NGE and SOE did not care.

Your perspective is so far gone, it is obvious that any further discourse with you is a waste of electrons. That was obvious when you asserted that an upset former SOE customer needs to have had a one on one meeting with Smed before they can be justified in criticising SOE for anything.

Feel free to let us all know when you come back from around the bend.

Good day sir.

 

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  2/29/12 7:52:01 PM#209
Originally posted by Burntvet

You sir, are a fanatic.

Such are described as someone who won't change their mind and can't change the subject.

 

In case you have never worked for a corpaorate entity, I will make it very clear:

When Rubenfeld and Freeman talk about "we told them" and "they told us" that is obviously talking about the leadership of SOE, because people from LA, no matter what the position, do NOT talk to lower level devs about things. SOE executives do that. No LA people. It is just not done. They do not give them instructions, orders, or demand anything from them.

In spite of all evidence, and the words of the people responsible for  the NGE, THEMSELVES, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, including Smed and other SOE people, you contine to assert that LA is wholely responsible for the disaster, when people from SOE admitted publically and on many occasions that the NGE originated with SOE, and SOE programmed the whole thing. Further, you assert SOE "cares about their players" when two sources, Freeman and Rubenfeld, both said that SOE knew they were going to lose the SWG playerbase as a result of the NGE and SOE did not care.

Your perspective is so far gone, it is obvious that any further discourse with you is a waste of electrons. That was obvious when you asserted that an upset former SOE customer needs to have had a one on one meeting with Smed before they can be justified in criticising SOE for anything.

Feel free to let us all know when you come back from around the bend.

Good day sir.

 

I suppose it could be SOE executives who told them but the main source of the request came from LA.

LA --> SOE execs ---> SOE devs. I was just going to the root source, and missing out the middle man (the SOE execs)

You are more a fanatic by the seems of it.. You can see all the evidence points to LA directly but still will not change your mind. Many other people here have disagreed with you as well.

You assume that it is SOE, yet Julio Torres (LA) talks about the NGE directly. There is nothing out there that points to SOE directly So, unless there is, then we'll see if I will change my mind, but nothing has been presented in all the time this has been in discussion.

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  2/29/12 8:12:57 PM#210
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by JYCowboy
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Burntvet

And that is all on SOE, nothing to do with LA.

Is that simple enough for you?

SWG failed and was closed because of SOE's atrocious decison making. lack of vision,  and terrible coding/game management more than another other factor(s) and 10X more than anything LA did or said.

 

 it was LA that spoke out in favor of the NGE - downplaying what SOE had created for launch

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts.
"There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer.

We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

 

 

 I never said LA/LEC were not "on-board" with the changes, but it was SOE that was actually designing and making the changes, even driving the changes. From the famous Freeman blog/chat (full text over at www.mmofringe):

 

An almost complete change in upper management at the (SOE) studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.

Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it (Doing the NGE).

and

I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.

At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.

 

and as an added bonus about SOE's corporate  opinion of their customers, as is the original title of the thread:

 

To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.

That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.

I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.

 

So, there we have it: Executives at SOE pushing forward the NGE (with LA approval, no doubt) to be done in SOE facilities by SOE people - i.e. the NGE was SOE's DOING, as they did it and very poorly. AND:

To the original title of this thread, No, SOE didn't give a crap about their existing players of SWG while the NGE was being done. The Rubenfeld quote echoes this point.

This is all from the SOE employees that were doing it at the time.

SOE Apologists may continue to howl at their regularly scheduled moon about LA conspiracies, the rest of us know better.

 

 

Burntvet I totally understand your SOE targeting per thier words,

However, LA was totally responcible for the Market Research of SWG.  It was thier exit questionairs and research groups that led them to agree with SOE to alienate the existing veterians for the more desireable WOW demographic.  Did SOE come to this idea on thier own?  Did thier past and congruent history of keeping games alive and or keeping changes only minimal compared to the NGE follow in suit?  NO, "hand-in-hand" they chose to make these changes that lead to the down fall of SWG.  I further say SOE collectively didn't have the guts to make such a decision that would cost them subs.  LA knew this hadn't been done before but was willing to gamble.  When Freeman talks of "head guys" don't you think Jim Ward was there? SWG was one of LA's largest ventures at the time.

I'm a Star Wars fanatic ( fanboi), but I have got to say LA is not loving me.  Look at TOR and tell me you can't see the NGE formula refined.  Dallas Dixon and other LA emplyees worked on SWG as they have with TOR. SOE rushed dev of SWG and it showed at launch and for years after.  They deserve to sit in the mess they created ... and did for eight years.  LA is at fault for caring for only making a "money tree" and not pleasing thier fans first.

I never said and do not believe that LA had no role in deciding to do the NGE. They obviously supported the idea.

SOE, as joint publisher had just as much responsibilty for the decision.

However, SOE was also responsible for designing and coding the disaster (which they did) and that is all on them. Many SWG fans blame the adject lack of quality of the NGEd game for making the game terrible, as much as  the changes themselves. I agree with this opinion.

So, if the decision to do the NGE was 50/50 on SOE and LA, and the other half of the reason the NGE failed so spectacularly is that it was very badly coded / tested (and it was), then the majority of the blame for the NGE's destruction of SWG goes to SOE, be it 75% or not. (As an aside: had SWG-NGE actually "worked" out of the gate, I do not expect the customer response would have been quite as severe, but SOE codes like I sing opera: badly and with no skill whatsoever.)

The whole entire point of this thread, put all of the blame on LA and none on SOE, when there is mountains of evidence to the contrary. No one but a hardcore apologist, having ignored all the evidence, would make such a contention.

LA, being greedy, just wanted more money. That doesn't bother me as much as SOE's Smed repeated lying, the crappy job coding, the duplicitous ToOW expansion scam, the abject disrespect to the the paying customers and all that rest that was on SOE. All of which are facts.

 

As to TOR, I do not disagree, that was a POS that I did not buy after playing the beta.

 

 

 


The NGE was only badly coded because it was code on top of code on top of code. It was not bugged because SOE are crappy at coding. If it was coded from the ground up and given 5 years in development it would have been a different matter  SOE were not given enough time and had to change the game. It would have been just as bad as if Bioware coded it.

The request of changing the game for the better to do the NGE was from LA. SOE would have been quite happy tinkering away at in in the CU, if LA did not request it.

Smedley was also not lying, and the TOOW scam came from confidentiality agreements with LA

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11296

3/01/12 1:57:13 AM#211
Originally posted by Burntvet

I never said and do not believe that LA had no role in deciding to do the NGE. They obviously supported the idea.

SOE, as joint publisher had just as much responsibilty for the decision.


I agree

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/21/soes-john-smedley-expresses-regrets-over-swg-mishaps/

What would Smedley do if he could go back and give it another try? His first regret is launching the game before the space combat system was done, and his second (regret) is that SOE didn't talk and listen to its players more. "We would have encouraged more in-depth discussion with the community surrounding the idea of any game modifications," he said.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/01/12 2:03:41 AM#212

Keep in mind that this IS dear old Smed... Given his past history, if he said that the sky was blue, I'd go out side and look up, before I believed him.  SOE is just like any other corporation. Customers/players are only a means to an end. That end being additions to their bottom line, on this quarters report.  That of course is only to be expected. But never lose sight of that reality.

  JYCowboy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/05
Posts: 660

SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-AhaziDCUO: Blue Horizon(CIA)STO: John West(USS Texas)NCC-91836

3/01/12 2:03:45 AM#213

Originally posted by superniceguy
 

The NGE was only badly coded because it was code on top of code on top of code. It was not bugged because SOE are crappy at coding. If it was coded from the ground up and given 5 years in development it would have been a different matter  SOE were not given enough time and had to change the game. It would have been just as bad as if Bioware coded it.

The request of changing the game for the better to do the NGE was from LA. SOE would have been quite happy tinkering away at in in the CU, if LA did not request it.

Smedley was also not lying, and the TOOW scam came from confidentiality agreements with LA

If you had any idea of bad code, LOL

Pre-CU when patch day came many a time we waited in fear to what would happen.  Often a fix would go in and it would solve one problem but break 2-5 other issues.  Speculation became rampent on why SOE could not get SWG fixed.  My favorite theroy was SOE devs broke code so they could keep job security on the Star Wars Cash Cow.  What a laugh.  The NGE was terriable code dropped on then fair code (CU with fixes) which was dropped on semi working code.  This history of broken code is one of the reasons that a true 3D engine could not be addapted to SWG.  Most of these problem stem from the launch of SWG which SOE had about the standard 5 years to build with a massive team. LA even gave them additional time to fix and get SWG ready for launch when they were not going to meet thier window.  So becareful  when you say SOE was rushed to code.  That is true for the NGE but not for the initial game.  From the beta vets, its known that the SWG that launch was not the same as in beta.  A new system was put together.  I however, can not confirm that as I was not in beta.

Every game SOE made or aquired has had buggy launches.  Those that are owned by SOE get taken care of such as EQ and EQ2 first in the hiarchy.  Special care is had with those games but even they have had thier troubles.  IP license games seem to get the hind end teet when resources are set.  MxO and SWG really suffered while DCUO got a great deal of attention and has faired well as of late.  Very rocky start but its done like STO and improved some.  It, however, is becoming lessor cared for as Planetside 2 becomes the new product of interest.

I have no idea where your praise for SOE originates. If they have a game you love, Great.  I hope it gives you years of enjoyment.  Just know they did knowenly take a dump on the existing player base of SWG with the NGE.  Losses were planned to be replaced with thier new customers.  Customers that were going to leave WOW to play a Star Wars MMO.  They (LA/SOE) were trading thousands for millions and lost it all.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11296

3/01/12 2:48:12 AM#214
Originally posted by JYCowboy
 Just know they did knowingly take a dump on the existing player base of SWG with the NGE.  Losses were planned to be replaced with thier new customers.

very true - many players got the shaft from SOE/Lucas Arts with the NGE

 

Q&A about the NGE

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/star-wars-galaxies-2005/667893p1.html

GameSpy: What about refunds? Will any be available to players who have, say, 10 months left on a year-long subscription and no longer want to play the "new" Galaxies?

JT: No.

 

anyone remember Woody's comic back in 2004 when he asked readers to boycott  EQs Omen of War?

http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20040526

I do like SOE games but SOE has a long history of not caring about their playerbase

during recent years SOE has gotten better  (ie mac users) but that doesnt excuse old history

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4838

3/01/12 2:58:55 AM#215

Seriously. I have said it many years (eventho I hate John Smedly... as he has two faces and has lied to his fans more than I can count) that Lucas Arts was solely responsible for the NGE!

You can bet that Lucas Arts is in 100% control of SW:TOR and calling all the shots as well and all that happens in it.

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  3/01/12 8:43:35 AM#216
Originally posted by JYCowboy

Originally posted by superniceguy
 

The NGE was only badly coded because it was code on top of code on top of code. It was not bugged because SOE are crappy at coding. If it was coded from the ground up and given 5 years in development it would have been a different matter  SOE were not given enough time and had to change the game. It would have been just as bad as if Bioware coded it.

The request of changing the game for the better to do the NGE was from LA. SOE would have been quite happy tinkering away at in in the CU, if LA did not request it.

Smedley was also not lying, and the TOOW scam came from confidentiality agreements with LA

If you had any idea of bad code, LOL

Pre-CU when patch day came many a time we waited in fear to what would happen.  Often a fix would go in and it would solve one problem but break 2-5 other issues.  Speculation became rampent on why SOE could not get SWG fixed.  My favorite theroy was SOE devs broke code so they could keep job security on the Star Wars Cash Cow.  What a laugh.  The NGE was terriable code dropped on then fair code (CU with fixes) which was dropped on semi working code.  This history of broken code is one of the reasons that a true 3D engine could not be addapted to SWG.  Most of these problem stem from the launch of SWG which SOE had about the standard 5 years to build with a massive team. LA even gave them additional time to fix and get SWG ready for launch when they were not going to meet thier window.  So becareful  when you say SOE was rushed to code.  That is true for the NGE but not for the initial game.  From the beta vets, its known that the SWG that launch was not the same as in beta.  A new system was put together.  I however, can not confirm that as I was not in beta.

Every game SOE made or aquired has had buggy launches.  Those that are owned by SOE get taken care of such as EQ and EQ2 first in the hiarchy.  Special care is had with those games but even they have had thier troubles.  IP license games seem to get the hind end teet when resources are set.  MxO and SWG really suffered while DCUO got a great deal of attention and has faired well as of late.  Very rocky start but its done like STO and improved some.  It, however, is becoming lessor cared for as Planetside 2 becomes the new product of interest.

I have no idea where your praise for SOE originates. If they have a game you love, Great.  I hope it gives you years of enjoyment.  Just know they did knowenly take a dump on the existing player base of SWG with the NGE.  Losses were planned to be replaced with thier new customers.  Customers that were going to leave WOW to play a Star Wars MMO.  They (LA/SOE) were trading thousands for millions and lost it all.


We will never know about the code in the end really. All I know was that the NGE was on top of the CU code on top of the pre-CU, and was said by SOE devs and the more knowledgable SWG players that SWG could be fixed if it was not for all the versions mixed in, and would need to be rewritten.

If the game still had bugs by the end and SWG did not have all those changes, then perhaps, but that will never be. ALthough having said that all MMOs start to get more buggy as time goes on as they change them and add more. Playing City of Heroes recently, seems more buggy than when first played it many years ago.

The main problem with SWG was that it just kept getting changed all the time, making it harder and harder to fix the bugs.

Either way, I still enjoyed the game even with all the bugs, and did not got frustrated with them. SWTOR is all smooth and less buggy but less things to do, so not my cup of tea. Preferably I would like a game with all the stuff as SWG and less buggy, but I would take buggy SWG over virtually bug free SWTOR any day. But at least it saves me loads of money not subbing to these MMOs.

My praise for SOE came from the fact that we wlll never know the full facts behind it all, and when ever dealing with SOE they always seemed to be more restrictive with what they do, than any other game. The only reason I can think of is that is was all down to LA. I have not any problems with SOE on any other game, and have played loads of other MMOs, due to the NGE, and realised that none of them were any better than SOE. SOE has its faults, but then so do others. Also they seem to think about their players and if they do something the players do not like they will change it if they can  whereas other comapnies make a decision and stick to it and do not change their mind even if they can do so.


Basically all my opinions are based off 8.5 solid years of experience with SWG/SOE, and alll comments ever made, and not basing it off what other companies do and then assume SOE will do the same, or picking bits and pieces of information here and there. SOE are most certainly unique.

  JYCowboy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/05
Posts: 660

SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-AhaziDCUO: Blue Horizon(CIA)STO: John West(USS Texas)NCC-91836

3/01/12 12:01:17 PM#217

With all this debate, fact finding and speculation, I wouild like to say I am very happy I got to play in a sandbox Star Wars MMO that was set in the time of my heroes. It was often a blast and I thank Lucas Arts and SOE for giving my friend  and me that game.  It fulfilled a childhood dream of living in the Star Wars universe. 

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  3/01/12 1:15:37 PM#218
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by superniceguy

SWTOR is another blunder on a different scale. There is simply not much variety in it to do. Nice to look at, just plain boring.

If they just keep adding Flashpoints and Operations to SWTOR, which is like DLC for consoles, and not enhancing it by adding in more systems, which gives the players enough content to mess around with daily and makes the monthly sub worth it, then it is going to be more dead than SWG in 8 years time.

SWTOR needs to be a social living breathing world which SWG still was on Dec 15th 2011. At the moment SWTOR is just like a single player game with onlin multiplayer options, with DLC added every 2 months - a rip off

[Mod Edit]


SWTOR has more players now, but I doubt it will have more than SWG as at Dec 15th 2011, in a few years time! At the rate t is declining. SWTOR is going need a miracle to recover

Truth hurtz eh?

  Datawarlock

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 311

You have been issued a temporary ban by one of our moderators.Category: Trolling!

3/01/12 1:19:07 PM#219

SWGEmu is still up and almost where SWG was pre-cu. so stop bitching about SWG already LOL! *goes back to his MTK/MCH and ignores the rest of this thread

“Generals think war should be waged like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. I have no use for knights; I need revolutionaries.” – Adolf Hitler

  superniceguy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2251

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

 
OP  3/01/12 1:19:38 PM#220
Originally posted by JYCowboy

With all this debate, fact finding and speculation, I wouild like to say I am very happy I got to play in a sandbox Star Wars MMO that was set in the time of my heroes. It was often a blast and I thank Lucas Arts and SOE for giving my friend  and me that game.  It fulfilled a childhood dream of living in the Star Wars universe. 

I emailed John  Smedley something like this, to thank him for SWG, and did not ask to save it as knew it was beyond his control.

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