Originally posted by Naqaj

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ffffa:daa.caa.Xaa.Yaa.aaa

Maximised 2hand, sword+shield. 30 points to distribute into whatever you like. Why does it force you to pick a mace?

Bam!

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-kNSfa:dba.cba.Xaa.Yaa.aaa

why do I have the uneasy feeling cali is preparing a beast of a post to smite me down ...

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

Makes me want to watch the Skilled Warrior PvE video again...

The first part with sword+shield, If that is "tanking" and a "tanking spec" then yes, please give me moar Anet.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Morcotulcon

You can't put Spirit Weapons  and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.

Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.

Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons. 

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.

So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?

And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?

Like maybe.. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ppfaa:dbc.cbZ.Xaa.aaa.aaa

Looks good to me.

Ok, I will now say the I WAS WRONG!  I tested it again and again untill I saw my mistake!

I will give you examples where I can have all of the weapons in the 2 sets gainning something from Traits.

Scepter/Shield + Greathammer  - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines. 

Scepter/Shield + Mace/Shield - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.

Sword/Shield + Greathammer - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.

My mistake was that I could have +10 points to use after 2 max Trait Lines in the  Scepter/Shield + Greathammer, but I had to give up on an additional bonus to one of the weapons in the other combinations (The only weapon that has 2 bonus).Then I realized, I was forgetting the 2nd bonus on one of the weapons in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer combination, it didn't had it in the beguinning.

Things really are more balanced than I thought! At least in the Guardian!

Great, enjoy your Guardian!

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

I'll go ahead and say that unless you're an engineer or a elementalist specializing into one weapon is a major mistake.

If you look at the videos of the gameplay you'll see that rotating your weapons is a must to keep yourself out of cooldown issues, unfortunatly most beta players stuck with one weapon and spammed 1.

Just played around with the build maker and i have no issues with traits.

I found it preety much impossible to do a "heal only" or "tank only" build, and trust me i tried, there's very little on the way of making any class good enough to take the all beating for the team and it's even harder to come up with any kind of build where the aoe healing would be enough to sustain a group.

With that said, man are some of the trait builds amazing, if you check out Necros for example you can clearly see at least 5 great builds with alot of variation between them.

Originally posted by Rivalen

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

I'll go ahead and say that unless you're an engineer or a elementalist specializing into one weapon is a major mistake.

If you look at the videos of the gameplay you'll see that rotating your weapons is a must to keep yourself out of cooldown issues, unfortunatly most beta players stuck with one weapon and spammed 1.

Just played around with the build maker and i have no issues with traits.

I found it preety much impossible to do a "heal only" or "tank only" build, and trust me i tried, there's very little on the way of making any class good enough to take the all beating for the team and it's even harder to come up with any kind of build where the aoe healing would be enough to sustain a group.

With that said, man are some of the trait builds amazing, if you check out Necros for example you can clearly see at least 5 great builds with alot of variation between them.

My knowledge of guild war 2 skills and stats is limited to say the least. But I've played a tank in more then one mmo and this is not much different of a build then most tanking trees. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-m-aapfp:aaa.aaa.Xcd.daa.bZY

Though I think it would be very fun to play. 

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Rivalen

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

I'll go ahead and say that unless you're an engineer or a elementalist specializing into one weapon is a major mistake.

If you look at the videos of the gameplay you'll see that rotating your weapons is a must to keep yourself out of cooldown issues, unfortunatly most beta players stuck with one weapon and spammed 1.

Just played around with the build maker and i have no issues with traits.

I found it preety much impossible to do a "heal only" or "tank only" build, and trust me i tried, there's very little on the way of making any class good enough to take the all beating for the team and it's even harder to come up with any kind of build where the aoe healing would be enough to sustain a group.

With that said, man are some of the trait builds amazing, if you check out Necros for example you can clearly see at least 5 great builds with alot of variation between them.

My knowledge of guild war 2 skills and stats is limited to say the least. But I've played a tank in more then one mmo and this is not much different of a build then most tanking trees. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-m-aapfp:aaa.aaa.Xcd.daa.bZY

Though I think it would be very fun to play. 

 You have a lot of toughness bonuses in that build which do look very tanky on paper, but remember this class is a cloth wearing caster ;).

Also, you didn't really invest heavily in the vitality tree for the HP bonus.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Rivalen

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

I'll go ahead and say that unless you're an engineer or a elementalist specializing into one weapon is a major mistake.

If you look at the videos of the gameplay you'll see that rotating your weapons is a must to keep yourself out of cooldown issues, unfortunatly most beta players stuck with one weapon and spammed 1.

Just played around with the build maker and i have no issues with traits.

I found it preety much impossible to do a "heal only" or "tank only" build, and trust me i tried, there's very little on the way of making any class good enough to take the all beating for the team and it's even harder to come up with any kind of build where the aoe healing would be enough to sustain a group.

With that said, man are some of the trait builds amazing, if you check out Necros for example you can clearly see at least 5 great builds with alot of variation between them.

My knowledge of guild war 2 skills and stats is limited to say the least. But I've played a tank in more then one mmo and this is not much different of a build then most tanking trees. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-m-aapfp:aaa.aaa.Xcd.daa.bZY

Though I think it would be very fun to play. 

 You have a lot of toughness bonuses in that build which do look very tanky on paper, but remember this class is a cloth wearing caster ;).

Also, you didn't really invest heavily in the vitality tree for the HP bonus.

Also, GW2 seems like a game where you don't want to stay there and get beat up, avoiding, blocking damage seems much more important, something that build doesn't have.

Originally posted by Rivalen

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by evicton

Originally posted by Rivalen

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

I'll go ahead and say that unless you're an engineer or a elementalist specializing into one weapon is a major mistake.

If you look at the videos of the gameplay you'll see that rotating your weapons is a must to keep yourself out of cooldown issues, unfortunatly most beta players stuck with one weapon and spammed 1.

Just played around with the build maker and i have no issues with traits.

I found it preety much impossible to do a "heal only" or "tank only" build, and trust me i tried, there's very little on the way of making any class good enough to take the all beating for the team and it's even harder to come up with any kind of build where the aoe healing would be enough to sustain a group.

With that said, man are some of the trait builds amazing, if you check out Necros for example you can clearly see at least 5 great builds with alot of variation between them.

My knowledge of guild war 2 skills and stats is limited to say the least. But I've played a tank in more then one mmo and this is not much different of a build then most tanking trees. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-m-aapfp:aaa.aaa.Xcd.daa.bZY

Though I think it would be very fun to play. 

 You have a lot of toughness bonuses in that build which do look very tanky on paper, but remember this class is a cloth wearing caster ;).

Also, you didn't really invest heavily in the vitality tree for the HP bonus.

Also, GW2 seems like a game where you don't want to stay there and get beat up, avoiding, blocking damage seems much more important, something that build doesn't have.

Thats true and this is all just speculation however the creation of clones breaks targeting on the mesmer, and makes the mesmer more tanky.

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-m-afppa:aaa.Xaa.Xcd.dbY.aaa

could also work, and may work better, it gives me the vitality bonus, plus the flexibitly of staff or scepter+torch as I think http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter works well with the overall feel of the build. Also charging up mantra of healing with this new build pre-fight gives me a self heal that I can cast in the middle of casting something else that also heals my party. 

Looking at these known traits I'd also argue that the pure amount of toughness is there to make up for the fact this is a cloth wearing class, I didn't see anywhere near those amounts in the other trees.

Of course in all honest I could have made the biggest fail build ever known in any mmo, until we can play the game its just what it looks like on paper.

There was a thread on guru where someone compared the maximum attainable attribute numbers. I cannot find that thread again for the life of me, but it was there.

Bottomline: A scholar profession focused on maximizing Toughness (traits, runes) is slightly above the numbers of a soldier profession that completely ignores it. 

Originally posted by Naqaj

I do understand you, cali, I just disagree. I know how important 5% may be in some other games. I've played them for 12 years. They are not that important in this game. 5% flat damage is one hit saved out of 20. That does not make a fight in a game where combat dynamics are so reliant on actual player skill. Synergy is fun because it rewards smart play, but it hardly affects raw performance.

 

Traits matter for your style, not your performance.

I was coming up with a concrete example, but it was for GW2Guru (I saw your other post. No smiting here!).  I think it's going to be more than just 5%, I think switching even just one trait line can have a dramatic impact.

Here's the example I came up with.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1172404&postcount=1728

I should probably post it here but I'm getting really tired of debating this issue in general, much less in two places at the same time.

I agree, no point in further discussion, it all boils down to the numbers at this point. We'll see how it plays out in the next beta.

Also for the comment of no healing trees I would say this guy would be a somewhat decent healer. Now I understand you wouldn't play this as your traditional healer as a matter of fact I would prolly start the fight taking damage to get my health down as some of the better stuff kicks in at 25% health. There is alot of flexibilty here as well, healing turret, med kit or elixir gun, healing mist and with the trait grenades will also heal.  Also I've heard that one of the reason there won't be healers in this game is because heals have a long cool down but Automated Medical Response pretty much makes it possible for a good player to dance around 25% health and refresh his cooldowns every 90 seconds. Now granted in pvp it would be kinda hard to bounce around but its possible in pve.

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

Originally posted by Creslin321

Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.

So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon.  And it can even get more specific than that.  Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.

So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games.  In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one.  But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.

Just because you have your points in greatsword doesn't mean you can't say "Hey, I need to knock back enemies here...hm I'll just switch to my hammer 'cos I have one". The only thing that can limit a character is if they don't have the weapon for the job in their inventory, if they do, it doesn't matter what spec they have, the weapon will work as intended every time.

Originally posted by evicton

Also for the comment of no healing trees I would say this guy would be a somewhat decent healer. Now I understand you wouldn't play this as your traditional healer as a matter of fact I would prolly start the fight taking damage to get my health down as some of the better stuff kicks in at 25% health. There is alot of flexibilty here as well, healing turret, med kit or elixir gun, healing mist and with the trait grenades will also heal.  Also I've heard that one of the reason there won't be healers in this game is because heals have a long cool down but Automated Medical Response pretty much makes it possible for a good player to dance around 25% health and refresh his cooldowns every 90 seconds. Now granted in pvp it would be kinda hard to bounce around but its possible in pve.

 

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

It's not because heals have a cooldown, it's because heals from a single player won't keep up all the players. Heals from every player on the other hand, would.

Originally posted by evicton

Also for the comment of no healing trees I would say this guy would be a somewhat decent healer. Now I understand you wouldn't play this as your traditional healer as a matter of fact I would prolly start the fight taking damage to get my health down as some of the better stuff kicks in at 25% health. There is alot of flexibilty here as well, healing turret, med kit or elixir gun, healing mist and with the trait grenades will also heal.  Also I've heard that one of the reason there won't be healers in this game is because heals have a long cool down but Automated Medical Response pretty much makes it possible for a good player to dance around 25% health and refresh his cooldowns every 90 seconds. Now granted in pvp it would be kinda hard to bounce around but its possible in pve.

 

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

Because I don't know much about the skills for the Engineer (I don't know what Elixir S and B do), I'd actually play it more like this;

Edit: I took a second look; Actually, more like this

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by evicton

Also for the comment of no healing trees I would say this guy would be a somewhat decent healer. Now I understand you wouldn't play this as your traditional healer as a matter of fact I would prolly start the fight taking damage to get my health down as some of the better stuff kicks in at 25% health. There is alot of flexibilty here as well, healing turret, med kit or elixir gun, healing mist and with the trait grenades will also heal.  Also I've heard that one of the reason there won't be healers in this game is because heals have a long cool down but Automated Medical Response pretty much makes it possible for a good player to dance around 25% health and refresh his cooldowns every 90 seconds. Now granted in pvp it would be kinda hard to bounce around but its possible in pve.

 

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

It's not because heals have a cooldown, it's because heals from a single player won't keep up all the players. Heals from every player on the other hand, would.

Until these have been tested there is really no way of knowing that. I mean that engineer can have 2 hots, a bandage allies can run over to heal themselves. While bomb explosions will also heal. Thats an awful lot of healing going out. Even more so if his health drops below 25%

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by evicton

Also for the comment of no healing trees I would say this guy would be a somewhat decent healer. Now I understand you wouldn't play this as your traditional healer as a matter of fact I would prolly start the fight taking damage to get my health down as some of the better stuff kicks in at 25% health. There is alot of flexibilty here as well, healing turret, med kit or elixir gun, healing mist and with the trait grenades will also heal.  Also I've heard that one of the reason there won't be healers in this game is because heals have a long cool down but Automated Medical Response pretty much makes it possible for a good player to dance around 25% health and refresh his cooldowns every 90 seconds. Now granted in pvp it would be kinda hard to bounce around but its possible in pve.

 

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-fapap:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.aaa.bZX

Because I don't know much about the skills for the Engineer (I don't know what Elixir S and B do), I'd actually play it more like this;

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-e-SapNa:Vaa.aaa.ZbW.bda.aaa

I actually though about going that route, my concern how much are heals improved when under 25% if its a pretty big number you'd want to stay there as long possible lol. From reading the tip it would seem you only get that bonus when your below, so if you went below, and regeneration ticked you above you may lose it. Transmute is nice though I'd just like to grab it without the regens when under 25%.