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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » ArenaNet: "Play your way" Jon Peters on Traits and Attributes

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183 posts found
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

2/29/12 9:56:50 AM#101

Yeah, 5% damage to a specific weapon type is peanuts when you compare it to the increased flexibility of say.... 

+5% damage to Spirt Weapons or +5% damage to Burning targets in Guardian Traits.

 

I don't think people quite understand that GW2 is NOT going to really be a min/max "must top DPS charts" raid Grinder MMO.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2514

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

2/29/12 9:58:46 AM#102
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
 

The problem is that THEY ARE.

http://www.gw2tools.com/

Check it OUT!

Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

What gave you that impression?

Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"

Duh.

Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?

Just because it has Axe mastery in it doesn't mean it is just for axes, there's a greatsword trait in there, another trait that encompases axes, maces and swords, two traits for spears (underwater weapon).... yea, not just an axe tree dude, you're blowing fish out of the water and you're looking silly doing it.

This is not a game.

  Barkam

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/12
Posts: 33

2/29/12 10:00:48 AM#103

How accurate is the information in this website http://www.gw2tools.com/?

 

Does it actually reflect the current changes to the traits system?

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2514

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

2/29/12 10:02:45 AM#104
Originally posted by Barkam

How accurate is the information in this website http://www.gw2tools.com/?

 

Does it actually reflect the current changes to the traits system?

It seems quite recent so I'd say yes.

This is not a game.

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

2/29/12 10:03:28 AM#105
Originally posted by Morcotulcon

In case of the Elementalist, since this profession doesn't swap weapons anymore, tying element attunements to Trait Lines is not so good of an idea too. WE already see many people beeing misleaded by the same name between them and the influence each Line has on one and only attunement. only the Line of Arcane Power will influence them all.

Unless you have access to information we don't this is simply not true. Roughly half the traits in a magic line directly relate to skills of that line, the other half is universal. The same pattern persists through the trait lines of other professions, there are always specific ones and general ones.

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2514

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

2/29/12 10:07:05 AM#106
Originally posted by ProfRed

People are confusing being forced into something with being given a choice.  All of the 'restrictive forcing me to blah' stuff is applied to the traits where you choose one of six to nine traits.  It is a choice you can use these to mix any trait lines with any others by choosing what to take.  Just take some time and try to make some creative builds and you will see how unrestrictive it really is. 

I don't know whether people think being better at something = stuck doing that thing and nothing else. It's just getting confusing now as to what the problem is exactly.

This is not a game.

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

2/29/12 10:07:51 AM#107
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by Barkam

How accurate is the information in this website http://www.gw2tools.com/?

 

Does it actually reflect the current changes to the traits system?

It seems quite recent so I'd say yes.

Some small errors, and many traits still missing, but it's the best we have so far

  Xzen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

2/29/12 10:09:02 AM#108
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by ProfRed

People are confusing being forced into something with being given a choice.  All of the 'restrictive forcing me to blah' stuff is applied to the traits where you choose one of six to nine traits.  It is a choice you can use these to mix any trait lines with any others by choosing what to take.  Just take some time and try to make some creative builds and you will see how unrestrictive it really is. 

I don't know whether people think being better at something = stuck doing that thing and nothing else. It's just getting confusing now as to what the problem is exactly.

Well I think it's just what we have been conditioned to. It does look like these attributes are going to be used by players to lock people into "tank" specs, "healing" specs, etc.

  User Deleted
2/29/12 10:12:23 AM#109

I like this because it really adds depth to the cusomization of your character. We haven't seen this type on customization in awhile now. This also makes you think alittle bit more too. I like it alot.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

2/29/12 10:16:25 AM#110

Choosing between 5% damage for swords and regeneration based on my endurance pool is the kind of choices I want to make in a character customization system.

 

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  User Deleted
2/29/12 10:18:02 AM#111
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by cali59

If you're planning on spending most of your time in fire spec, then it makes sense to spec so as to improve your fire by selecting traits which synergize with that.  The problem that I have is that this game is fluid.  If you then have to go primary (not exclusively) earth spec for an encounter, you're missing a bunch of talents (not to mention toughness) which probably will affect how the very hard explorable mode encounter plays out.

You're making the same mistake as Pilnk. Traiting for 5% mor crit with an axe doesn't force me to use axes exclusively. You assume that if you don't trait into a specific line, the skills attached to it somehow become invalid. I just don't see how this is true in any way.

I'll trait mainly into fire magic with a focus on maximising burning. I still have to switch to water whenever the situation calls for snaring and healing. I still have to switch to air to apply conditions, I still switch to earth to play defensively. The other attunements have not become invalidated just because my fire skills do better burning.

The flexibility of a class lies in weapon switching (or attunements/kits) and utility skills, not in the trait system. Traits actually are flavour. They allow to customise how I want to do damage, they do not force me to do damage.

This topic makes me want to scream.  You are not understanding me.

Yes, I know it doesn't make axes invalid.  You can still use axes.

Yes, if I traited into Fire I would still use the other attunements as I see fit.  Notice the part in orange.

The problem, as I illustrated in the part that you didn't quote, is that it's possible to have synergy with the skills needed for one encounter, and then have no synergy with the skills for another encounter.

If traits matter, then a person would be better off running back to town and respecing for a particular fight.  Remember this is ultra hard explorable mode I'm talking about where 5% here and 5% there might be what makes the difference.  If the fight is tuned around people with balanced specs, then it becomes easier if you have a spec tailored for it.  I'm not talking about a totally min/maxed holy trinity sense, but I'm talking about people who skew their builds towards control having more control oriented traits (yet still capable of doing damage or switching to do something else if needed).

 

 

Honestly, I think the problem with this change is that I have so many objections to it on so many levels, I can't even express them all in one post.

  doragon86

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 587

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

2/29/12 10:23:51 AM#112

There are a lot of unfounded fears of I'm going to be locked into a particular build, people are only going to look for particular builds to group with, or people are going to magically come up with tank and healer specs are pretty much running rampant here and on guru. Also it seems a lot of folks for some reason have an "I want it all" mentality as well. How bout waiting to see how it plays out in the betas or in release. Whining and raging doesn't work on A-Net. It may make them glance at a particular issue, but if they believe the raging and the whining is unwarranted, they won't change anything.

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

2/29/12 10:27:04 AM#113

Considering 90% of the game is open world free form group content, you won't know or care what specs other people have.

And the other 10%, the dungeons and instanced PvP, in the instanced PvP you get freedom to switch as often and as much as you like and in the dungeons it looks like your skill as a player and UTILITY is going to account for about 3418761% of your ability to succeed or not...

Not the 5% bonus damage to a particular weapon set.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

2/29/12 10:28:05 AM#114

I do understand you, cali, I just disagree. I know how important 5% may be in some other games. I've played them for 12 years. They are not that important in this game. 5% flat damage is one hit saved out of 20. That does not make a fight in a game where combat dynamics are so reliant on actual player skill. Synergy is fun because it rewards smart play, but it hardly affects raw performance.

 

Traits matter for your style, not your performance.

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2514

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

2/29/12 10:29:47 AM#115

Just played around with the trait system a bit and.. I can just say, I have no fears whatsoever.

This is not a game.

  Morcotulcon

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/10
Posts: 261

2/29/12 10:30:17 AM#116
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, 5% damage to a specific weapon type is peanuts when you compare it to the increased flexibility of say.... 

+5% damage to Spirt Weapons or +5% damage to Burning targets in Guardian Traits.

 

I don't think people quite understand that GW2 is NOT going to really be a min/max "must top DPS charts" raid Grinder MMO.

You can't put Spirit Weapons  and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.

Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.

Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons. 

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

 

So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

2/29/12 10:32:48 AM#117
Originally posted by Morcotulcon

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

Can we agree on including links to the calc when giving examples like this? Makes it easier to follow your argument.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

2/29/12 10:34:02 AM#118
Originally posted by Morcotulcon

You can't put Spirit Weapons  and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.

Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.

Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons. 

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.

So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?

And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?

Like maybe.. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ppfaa:dbc.cbZ.Xaa.aaa.aaa

Looks good to me.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

2/29/12 10:42:23 AM#119
Originally posted by needalife214
Originally posted by ariboersma
Originally posted by ipeka

Offense

  • Prowess: Improves the damage multiplier on critical strikes.
  • Malice: Improves the damage done by conditions like burning, poison, confusion, and bleeding.
  • Expertise: Improves the duration of all conditions inflicted by the character.

Support

  • Concentration: Improves the duration of all boons applied by the character.
  • Compassion: Improves all outgoing heals that your character does, including self heals.
hmmm almost makes me think that we can never escape the healer-role dilemma  , but at least we wont need tank .

yea and the main tree I planned to put points in.. for ranger Compassion is one of the attributes.. gogo healing ranger! I mean I don't mind doing it but its a bit weird.

you can't.. because there have been healers since D&D.

what i guess people still don't understand in that you will build your character to what you want to do. but those chocies will still wittle down a dmg dealer, a dmg taker, a healer, a support, or a control.   The warrior is not just a tank, as he can throw his banner around and give buffs and crazy knockbacks, or have everyone move fast and charge with his warhorn, or he can grab his bow and rifle and throw out some ranged dmg.

THERE ARE STILL ROLES TO BE FILLED, and arena net has never said these would go away.

 

WHAT THEY DID SAY- classes are not locked into roles (warior in WoW can only tank or dps), The better the players skills' at dodging and thinking through a fight will help him more then just gear.

The Elementalist can switch to earth and help soak up some dmg for the warrior if he needs it, or an agile theif can dart in and out to confuse the AI, but if you are good enough you will never take damage (this is not counting some dmg from traps or just dmg you cant avoid) 

5 elementalists can run in a dungeon, but dont you think they have someone supporting and dealing dmg and all of them are dodging and swaping skills and moving about?

The roles are still there, but if you use your mind and skills and you can overcome.

If it were my group, I'd ensure that there were a few AoE heals to go around and that are being spammed on cool down, plenty of CC and buffing from multiple sources (if it was really tough content, I'd also make sure that there was no redundant overlap), and that everyone was capable of stepping into the breach for at least a short span of taking the spotlight damage.  The only role that I would accept as being valid is who will be the first person to receive the focus fire.  You can call that person a tank, but to me, they are just the first warm body on the congo line.  When they get burned out, they roll and get replaced by whoever is closer and not doing anything critical like rezzing.

If you're looking for a challenge, by all means, create designated roles.  Hope you like fighting naked though. ;)

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

2/29/12 10:43:44 AM#120

http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ffffa:daa.caa.Xaa.Yaa.aaa

Maximised 2hand, sword+shield. 30 points to distribute into whatever you like. Why does it force you to pick a mace?

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