Hi I'm ozmono and I'm a MMORPG sandbox fan yet I cannot find a single one I like.

I've played most of them and even enjoyed a few for awhile but they end up ceasing to entertain me and leave me wanting more. For me it's not so much that there aren't any good sandbox games it's that they fall so short of what I consider to be there potential.  Sometimes it's simply that sandbox games just don't get the big budget love MMORPGs get.. Take wurm for example, wurm was my favourite MMORPG for along time but so many aspects of the game are lacking (putting it nicely) in comparison to other games. Another good example is Wakfu(the game I'll be playing tomorrow) it like wurm has alot of great features but it fails to deliver as a whole. Wakfu still entertains me but I purposely held out on beta testing because I knew I'd be burned out before launch if I didn't. I don't expect it to entertain me for long once it launches.

Sometimes I think it's the dependence on the community that ruins them like I did with games like MO and darkfall with the zerg attacks and griefing, other times I think it's the lack of polish or budget constraints but ultimately I think it's because they open my mind to the future possibilities of fun virtual worlds but fail to produce an existing one as a whole and free of the basic faults.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Epicent

 You show me an mmo that is a true sandbox in a medevil setting, with polished graphics equivalant to something like gw1(thats being generous) and modern day non buggy/broken gameplay mechanics then we will talk. To top it off, show me some innovation in gameplay.

UWO has graphics about on par with GW1, isn't very buggy (the most notable glitches are mistranslations of proper nouns), doesn't have that many broken game mechanics (though there are some problems caused by releasing expansions out of order, but that will be fixed when they release El Oriente), and is very highly innovative.  It's set roughly in the 1520s, so it missed the medieval era by a few decades.

If you don't like it, fine.  But it's probably for reasons not on your list.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at in this thread.  Some people say they want a sandbox game.  But what they really want is a sandbox game that also satisfies a long list of other criteria, some of which are very peculiar.  Some people have a list of things they want that is so restrictive that even if there were a hundred really good sandbox MMORPGs on the market, most likely none would satisfy their entire list.  And if they'd reject all hundred on that basis, then they'd probably find other excuses to dislike a sandbox game that did meet all of their criteria.  In which case, I'd say that such people don't like sandbox games.  Hence this thread.

I think your logic is peculiar.

I think this thread is peculiar.

Why do you even care what any of us crazy sandbox lovers think anyways?  The idea is simple.  There aren't any good sandbox games out other than EVE.  You can look at subscription numbers for an idea on what good is considered.  There are more sandbox gamers not playing EVE, than there are playing EVE.  There isn't a single good high fantasy sandbox MMORPG currently on the market.  This doesn't mean that people like myself are not sandbox fans.  It more likely is due to players like myself not wanting to spend money on an inferior product.  The list of our likes doesn't need to get past three or four things, not one hundred as you claim.  Modern graphics, UI, animations, server and network coding.  Not one sandbox game employs that short list of must-haves.  When one does, then we can bicker over lists of features that are, or are not feasible.  Until then, your reasoning makes zero sense.

Originally posted by DAS1337

The idea is simple.  There aren't any good sandbox games out other than EVE.  You can look at subscription numbers for an idea on what good is considered.

Except that there are other good sandbox games, which is much of the point of this thread.  And if you're only looking at subscription numbers, then you're implicitly saying that any non-subscription game can't be good.

Some games target a narrow niche.  And no matter how good such a game is, it's not going to have a huge subscription base.  For example, I'll concede that A Tale in the Desert isn't terribly polished.  But what if it were?  Do you think that style of game, with no combat at all, would be able to pull in millions of subscribers?  Hundreds of thousands of subscribers, even?  Certainly not without a huge marketing budget, and probably not even with a huge marketing budget, either.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by DAS1337

The idea is simple.  There aren't any good sandbox games out other than EVE.  You can look at subscription numbers for an idea on what good is considered.

Except that there are other good sandbox games, which is much of the point of this thread.  And if you're only looking at subscription numbers, then you're implicitly saying that any non-subscription game can't be good.

Some games target a narrow niche.  And no matter how good such a game is, it's not going to have a huge subscription base.  For example, I'll concede that A Tale in the Desert isn't terribly polished.  But what if it were?  Do you think that style of game, with no combat at all, would be able to pull in millions of subscribers?  Hundreds of thousands of subscribers, even?  Certainly not without a huge marketing budget, and probably not even with a huge marketing budget, either.

Yeah, some types of games have a hard time to get millions of subs even if they are done well.

But on the other hand are there plenty of singleplayer games with no violence that sold a lot, like "The Sims" and "Minecraft" so don´t count it out comnpletely.

The quality of sandbox games could be a lot better though. Most players actually don´t consider if a game is sandbox or not when they play it, they just want a fun game but if it is in a sad state it will turn away a lot of people.

I would go so far to say that if Wow were as unpolished asmost sandbox games are at launch it would never been a huge success.

Let´s hope WoDO, AA or whatever Bethesda/Zenimax is making is well coded.

Originally posted by Loke666

But on the other hand are there plenty of singleplayer games with no violence that sold a lot, like "The Sims" and "Minecraft" so don´t count it out comnpletely.

It's not just the "no combat".  It's also, "this is really complicated, and we're not going to explain how it works".  And then there's the "mods won't ban players for anything short of bug exploitation, but other players can ban you".

Some features are simply niche features that most MMORPG players would stay away from.  Think of permadeath, for example.  Or perhaps free for all full loot PVP.  Some feature sets could be implemented very, very well, but still not attract many players, simply because most players don't want those features.  That doesn't mean the game is bad.  It only means it's a niche game.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Loke666

But on the other hand are there plenty of singleplayer games with no violence that sold a lot, like "The Sims" and "Minecraft" so don´t count it out comnpletely.

It's not just the "no combat".  It's also, "this is really complicated, and we're not going to explain how it works".  And then there's the "mods won't ban players for anything short of bug exploitation, but other players can ban you".

Some features are simply niche features that most MMORPG players would stay away from.  Think of permadeath, for example.  Or perhaps free for all full loot PVP.  Some feature sets could be implemented very, very well, but still not attract many players, simply because most players don't want those features.  That doesn't mean the game is bad.  It only means it's a niche game.

 

Even so I think it's possible for a sandbox game to achieve mass success. I'm not saying it will happen but I think it's possible as there is no one “must have" sandbox feature by definition that makes the entire game only appeal to a very small audience. I think what loke666 was saying is that you shouldn't rule out the idea of a sandbox game being successful on mass because of this and I would have to agree. I'll also concede to you that no one MMO will capture the entire sandbox market no matter how good the game. That said I don't think it need to.

Originally posted by Quizzical

I'm sick of people creating threads to whine that there aren't any good sandbox games out there.  Which is completely absurd, as I've played several.  And I haven't played EVE, so it's hardly the only good sandbox game out there.

Now, different games will appeal to different people.  So I'm not saying that a sandbox fan should like all of the sandbox games out there; some games really are just terrible games, or simply not what you're after.  I can also understand if you've played a couple sandbox games and liked them, but eventually got tired of them, and only want to complain that there aren't enough good sandbox games.

But I don't have any sympathy for people who can't find a single sandbox game that they like, and want to whine loudly about it.  Even if they think they're sandbox fans, they're not.

I can't begin to explain how wrong you are... it's almost insane what you wrote there buddy.

Perhaps some of us expect more than any developer has yet to put out?

Perhaps some of us LOVE the ideas of several games yet they still do not cut it for our liking?

EVE - great game - only truly alive "world" - real economy - SHITTY COMBAT - CAN NEVER CATCH UP

If EVE had player skilled FPS style combat I'd drop everything and play it... however it does not.  Otherwise EVE is the perfect game in most regards... personally I find the PVP being based around warp gates a little retarded.

Again you're wrong.  I'm so sorry I'm not willing to compromise what I want out of a sandbox just to play one.

If you cant find an apple which is tasty in a basket full of rotten apples, youre not a apple conniseur.

Originally posted by rounner

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by DAS1337

The idea is simple.  There aren't any good sandbox games out other than EVE.  You can look at subscription numbers for an idea on what good is considered.

Except that there are other good sandbox games, which is much of the point of this thread.  And if you're only looking at subscription numbers, then you're implicitly saying that any non-subscription game can't be good.

Some games target a narrow niche.  And no matter how good such a game is, it's not going to have a huge subscription base.  For example, I'll concede that A Tale in the Desert isn't terribly polished.  But what if it were?  Do you think that style of game, with no combat at all, would be able to pull in millions of subscribers?  Hundreds of thousands of subscribers, even?  Certainly not without a huge marketing budget, and probably not even with a huge marketing budget, either.

The point of the thread sounded more like how you're smarter and better than others to me. I dont consider MO and DFO sandboxes. I am not playing a game with crappy 10 year old graphics or a game where all you do is craft. I am bored with Vangard, I have played every class and race to near max level. I am not interested in eve. Abuse me all you want but I consider myself a sandbox fan and I only see archeage on the horizon. I am not interested in debating the definition of sandbox because I really dont give a flying fig only that I cant find a single game that I like and am not bored with. Does this make you better than me? Grats but I am still not happy that so many MMO's just copy each other when so many of us will rape archeage if it ever comes to US/EU.

 

That's a little too much of a response for someone who doesn't care isn't it mate? A bit unfair too. Anyway if you don't care as you say than don't get so involved in the discussion. I'm actually of a similiar viewpoint regarding how you view sandbox games but I am willing to discuss it.  If you don't give "a flying fig" like you say than simply walk away.

The one thing this thread really proves is there is a passion out there for sandboxes. No matter what, as long as people are demanding them, theres room for improvement in the genre. Then again what genre doesn't have room for improvement. That demand is good. It drives game companies. Thats my real qualm with Quiz's opinion. Why worry about people complaining about no sandboxes. When it just drives the whole genre :D

OP didn't even respond to me. Too good of a point for you to even try to argue?

And you're making a thread whining about whining.

The cycle continues.

Originally posted by Zeno89

OP didn't even respond to me. Too good of a point for you to even try to argue?

There.  I replied.  Happy?

More seriously, I did reply earlier to your argument, even if I didn't quote you on it.  Basically, the problem is that real games can't compete with nostalgia, and you only get to do something for the first time once.

Originally posted by Bainwalker

Originally posted by Quizzical

I'm sick of people creating threads to whine that there aren't any good sandbox games out there.  Which is completely absurd, as I've played several.  And I haven't played EVE, so it's hardly the only good sandbox game out there.

Now, different games will appeal to different people.  So I'm not saying that a sandbox fan should like all of the sandbox games out there; some games really are just terrible games, or simply not what you're after.  I can also understand if you've played a couple sandbox games and liked them, but eventually got tired of them, and only want to complain that there aren't enough good sandbox games.

But I don't have any sympathy for people who can't find a single sandbox game that they like, and want to whine loudly about it.  Even if they think they're sandbox fans, they're not.

I can't begin to explain how wrong you are... it's almost insane what you wrote there buddy.

 

Perhaps some of us expect more than any developer has yet to put out?

 

Perhaps some of us LOVE the ideas of several games yet they still do not cut it for our liking?

EVE - great game - only truly alive "world" - real economy - SHITTY COMBAT - CAN NEVER CATCH UP

 

If EVE had player skilled FPS style combat I'd drop everything and play it... however it does not.  Otherwise EVE is the perfect game in most regards... personally I find the PVP being based around warp gates a little retarded.

 

Again you're wrong.  I'm so sorry I'm not willing to compromise what I want out of a sandbox just to play one.

 

 

 

Pretty sure you are the one who is  wrong. You are just saying that there is one feature of Eve you don't like. You basically are strengthening the OP's point. Face it you don't like Sandboxes because they aren't exactly what you want. Just admit that you would find some other excuse not to play EvE if they added twitch combat.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Zeno89

OP didn't even respond to me. Too good of a point for you to even try to argue?

There.  I replied.  Happy?

More seriously, I did reply earlier to your argument, even if I didn't quote you on it.  Basically, the problem is that real games can't compete with nostalgia, and you only get to do something for the first time once.

Yeah - nostalgia argument again.

That's really something cause I often replay for example old single player games and still BG2 has much better dialogs, story , lore , attention to details, much more flexibility and options , etc and overall game design than f.e. DA2 or even DA:O even though they are same type of game of game.

+ much more examples like that.

Of course I can also find NEW great games and SOME of old games when I tried to replay them they well werent as good as I remembered them BUT not ALL.

Some very old games still beat many of new similar productions in everything but graphics cause they are not dumbed down, streamlined, etc

That about nostalgia.

Now about sandbox mmorpgs.

UO and SWG were AAA sandboxes peroid.

EvE managed to became AAA sandbox.

There were few hybrid or themeparks with sandbox elements that were AAA as well in past.

-----

Currently except EvE all other sandboxes are

a) indie

b) broken

c) old

d) indie , broken and old

Yeah I know that you very much like UWO and consider it as AAA title.

Well I don't and what It seems most other people don't as well.

Yes I've tried UWO.

Will not repeat why it and other current sandboxes (Tale in the Desert, MO, DFO , etc ) does not work for me ,cause that would be like repeating myself for 5th time and repating what many other peopel said for like 100 th time.

If you cannot see substantial diffrence between what was offered for sandbox players years ago and what is offered now - then guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Just to be clear - I am not interested in playing AGAIN some underfinanced , broken, deserted by players (looking at you DFO EU server !) , cash shop financed ,old or indie / low-budget (Salem , Wakfu) title. Yes I tried many of them.

Originally posted by Kreedz

If you cant find an apple which is tasty in a basket full of rotten apples, youre not a apple conniseur.

This.

.....Can we get the pasta debate going again?

Penne is a waste of time, as it is near impossible to get more than two pieces on a fork at a time...

...discuss.

AAA = Mcdonalds

Indie = Joe's

Which do you go to for a better product?

Mcdonalds is quick and easy and you know basically what you'll get. It might be cold though.

Joe's takes a bit longer to make. It's not as clean, but to be fair it's just Joe back there putting his heart into the burgers.

Originally posted by Indol

.....Can we get the pasta debate going again?

Why aren't there more sandboxes with pasta in them?  Uncharted Waters Online has pasta in it.  You have to invest in Naples to be allowed to buy it.  But there isn't any pasta sauce in the game.  You can cook mushroom pasta, pork and turnip pasta, seafood pasta, and tonno pasta.  But people don't, because the first two don't recover enough vigor to justify using an inventory slot for them, the third requires mussels and I didn't even know that the game has mussels, and the fourth requires tuna.  And if someone is going to cook with tuna, he's probably going to make tuna olive steak, not tonno pasta.  Besides, having to get pasta from Naples and tomatoes from Merida or Guatemala for the same recipe means it would be a very expensive recipe to make, even apart from the tuna.

And so, if you can't find any pasta in sandbox MMORPGs that you like, then you don't like sandbox MMORPG pasta.  Which I don't.  Because I don't like sand in my pasta.