Originally posted by cali59

I saw your reply but then I had to step out so I didn't respond to it yet.  I'll probably end up copying something like this over there as well.

I did see that your Major Traits can still be reslotted and that's something at least.  I know that even if we trait a certain way our other skills won't become useless, but I am concerned about people being gimped for particular encounters.

For example, suppose you have a warrior with 30 points in Defense.  (I know this is a work in progress, but here's the trait list and what's available and how it presumably gives 300 Toughness and 300 Compassion)  http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_traits

Now suppose you reach a spider boss that 1-shots everyone in melee range like the one described here.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805995&postcount=42

If this warrior has to switch to a Longbow or Rifle, they'll still be able to contribute, but I'd think pretty poorly compared to a guy who could respec his traits.  He can presumably find 3 Majors which aren't totally useless (Adrenal Health, Cull the Weak, and Sure Footed for instance) but compared to what you'd come up with if a person could respec traits, it seems like a significant hit.  Even if they did have points in Tactics which they could switch to Longbow (they might, since it boosts Vitality), they'd still be missing out on all kinds of potential Strength and Arms points and traits, including possibly 200 or 300 points of Power.  Someone said you have base 916 to your 4 base stats at level cap (though also boosted by gear)?  Obviously we don't know how much attributes affect things or if these are even the final numbers or how much gear will play a role, but it seems like an awful lot to give up.

 

To everyone else here, I don't think this is the end of the world, but this what I had to say over at GW2Guru about this change.

 

After reading everything you posted (quite a lot, I already read some of that stuff but didn't remmember ) I understand your point of view quite well. But, IMO, I think you're forgetting some things.

Honestly I think that it's really a matter of balance between players and mobs/bosses, but that's not something you're unaware though. What I think you're forgetting is that players usually don't go to a dungeon after some minutes of gameplay, they need to be lvl 30 at least. Untill that time they will learn how to dodge properly, how to use their skills better and what kind of Build they want for themselves (including Traits). You are invulnerable while dodging and all the professions can do something else while dodging if their players feel the need to it untill they reach that level (You can see it in one of the Warrior's Minor Traits too). 

It's true, reading this article and thinking about it seems like they are trying too hard. Instead of going with something that clearly seems healthy, safe but with less variety in playstyles, they changed it to try one system with more playstyles in each profession and risk the healthy, safe condition of the game. But they are the ones playing everyday and none of the people that played during the Press Beta Weekend noticed most of the changes made (and they were there), probably because the game is more balanced and most of them learned how to play better after 1 day playing it (especially in movement and dodging).

Think of it this way: the devs are like the high levels of the game and they still changed it because they felt the lack of "personal taste in builds". Usually, high lvl players like to stay with the most effective build(s) and don't care about their own tastes besides the profession/role they are. If learners didn't had a hard time playing the game in the Press Beta, in fact they enjoyed it quite much, and if the masters of the game still find their uniqueness in their builds, this might be a good system after all. But I will still have my doubts, just like you and many more people, untill the next Beta Weekend players tell us how it really works out.

You can still swap your unlocked traits around when out of combat. The only thing you can't do is change your trait points around, i.e. change what traits in what lines are unlocked.

You unlock two major traits in Domination, for example, you can change what those traits are and experiment to your hearts content. You just can't take the points out of domination and put them somewhere else until you visit the trait dude.

Originally posted by doragon86

I care very little about the money sink. However, I don't like the idea of having to go to town to respec. I'd rather they allow you to respec for PvE on the fly and just integrate the fee into that, i.e. no respec NPC.

That would actually be cool. Yeah, I don't mind the money sink portion either and really it is the need to once again have to travel to a trainer to respec that I find annoying.

Originally posted by cali59

I really really dislike this change for two reasons.

 

First:

We realized that an important part of building a character is some sense of permanence. With this new system, you are flexible enough to change if you really want to, but you should still feel like the choices you made matter while you are out adventuring or slogging your way through a dungeon. In competitive PvP, you have a separately saved trait build and can respec free of charge.

 

I don't get this, it doesn't seem like it fits at all.  Combat is supposed to be fluid with people able to build towards different roles based on the encounter.  In some other game yeah I can kind of see the idea of having a tankish build of skills and then locking in traits to support that, but what if in GW2 you need to be controlling for one encounter and support for the next?  You can totally change your skills but now you have traits that don't support this change at all.

And in a game full of instant teleportation (and one person can leave a dungeon as long as they all don't) then what is the point of making people go back to town to pay a fee and make everyone wait?

The only way this makes sense to me is if traits are so complicated compared to skills that you want to actively discourage their respecing so people don't have to wait for people to keep allocating points before every boss battle.

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, we have this.

Major Traits (For each of the three unlocked slots, the warrior may choose any of these):

• Gain adrenaline whenever killing an enemy.
• Reduced signet-recharge time.
• Movement skills break out of the Immobilize condition.
• Reduced burst-skill recharge time.
• Gain adrenaline when inflicting a critical hit with an axe skill.
• Increased movement speed while wielding a melee weapon.
• Reduced burst-skill adrenaline cost.
• Chance to rally whenever killing an enemy while under the effects of Vengeance.
• Improved critical chance for each full level of adrenaline.

Traits that depend on specific things I think are particularly bad, but not so much when you can freely change them and your skills.  You just have to make a judgement call whether it's worth taking the trait when you have X number of Signets or certain weapons.  Now, if you switch your weapons/skills due to a different boss, you're now going to have 100% worthless major traits if you took these.

 

I really hope guildwars2guru is going ballistic over this.

 

edit: someone on GW2Guru is saying you need to go to a trainer to respec the points, but you can freely swap the major traits.  That's better but still not awesome to me.  Also I don't know if that's confirmed.

 

Originally posted by Zeroxin in Elemental Attunement Trait System

"Lol, as an active PvPer in the current GW1 I don't see this is a problem. Where you spec won't force you into just using two attunements, their damage is not gimped because you specced into a specific trait more than the other, their effectiveness still remains the same. In GW1 some Assassins use hammers, why? Because even if they are not effective with it (NOTE: in GW1 your effectiveness with a weapon is reduced if you haven't specced into it which is not the same in GW2. If your profession can use the weapon... well you can USE it) they still want to use it to get that one knockdown that starts the chain of destruction they will lay on you before you get back up. All their points are in Daggers but they still bring that Hammer. In the same vein, casters bring spears and shields, spears to gain adrenaline for Bonetti's defence and shields for the buff in defence and to use shield bash and they also have different sets to increase their base amout of energy. They could stick with the highest amount of energy and disregard everything else but there is an advantage to having these different sets.

I might've gone on for too long but I do hope my point is made clear; just because people are able to be specific in the traits they specialize in doesn't mean they are forced to disregard the other skills they have in their arsenal. The fact that the game doesn't even reduce the damage the other attunements do or the benefits you gain from them goes to show that it doesn't matter at all."

Now I'm going to reiterate; as long as they don't gimp your other weapons or abilities that you haven't specialized in for whatever reason, those are still valid roles you can take on regardless of your specialization.

Originally posted by Kityn

I am none too thrilled 

total reversal on what Anet has stated before.

 make it more like the usual MMOs  That is no longer the case.

 defended Anet plently  this time I can not.

This saddens me and I am truely disappointed in Anet.

lol, can you be any more dramatic? why is everyone so averse to actually thinking a little, and planning?

you can still change between builds in competitive pvp. in pve or pvpve, you actually have to PLAN your build and specialize in some way. it makes perfect sense, and it was done well.

ANet will probably change it if you guys cry harder.

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by Zeroxin in Elemental Attunement Trait System

"Lol, as an active PvPer in the current GW1 I don't see this is a problem. Where you spec won't force you into just using two attunements, their damage is not gimped because you specced into a specific trait more than the other, their effectiveness still remains the same. In GW1 some Assassins use hammers, why? Because even if they are not effective with it (NOTE: in GW1 your effectiveness with a weapon is reduced if you haven't specced into it which is not the same in GW2. If your profession can use the weapon... well you can USE it) they still want to use it to get that one knockdown that starts the chain of destruction they will lay on you before you get back up. All their points are in Daggers but they still bring that Hammer. In the same vein, casters bring spears and shields, spears to gain adrenaline for Bonetti's defence and shields for the buff in defence and to use shield bash and they also have different sets to increase their base amout of energy. They could stick with the highest amount of energy and disregard everything else but there is an advantage to having these different sets.

I might've gone on for too long but I do hope my point is made clear; just because people are able to be specific in the traits they specialize in doesn't mean they are forced to disregard the other skills they have in their arsenal. The fact that the game doesn't even reduce the damage the other attunements do or the benefits you gain from them goes to show that it doesn't matter at all."

Now I'm going to reiterate; as long as they don't gimp your other weapons or abilities that you haven't specialized in for whatever reason, those are still valid roles you can take on regardless of your specialization.

I have no problem whatsoever with free and easy respec.  I believe that this game will have all kinds of different encounters where it will be advantageous to put together a strategy with your group before each attempt.  I've said on several occasions, it's like your group has a collection of skills, and it's up to you all to combine them as needed to beat an encounter.

The problem I have with this system is if they don't want you to respec your traits in a dungeon, it affects what happens in those different encounters.  The example I used was a warrior entering a dungeon in a spec skewed towards control with say 30 points in Defense, 30 in Tactics and 10 in Discipline.  This gives them max bonuses to Toughness, Vitality, Compassion and Concentration, with minor bonuses to Prowess and Brawn.

Suppose they reach a boss that can't be approached in melee and this warrior needs to take out a Rifle.  If they could respec, they might go for max bonuses to Power, Precision, Malice and Expertise (and still keep minor Prowess and Brawn).  If you can get 300 to TWO of these stats with 30 points and as that video shows, you can theoretically get 125 Power by equipping all five of your pieces of gear with Runes, then that seems like a pretty significant effect, not to mention the potential damage boosting from the actual traits themselves.

So I don't see it like it doesn't make a difference what traits you have.  And if it didn't make a difference what traits you have (because you couldn't gimp yourself no matter what you did), then why have a complicated trait system at all?

I share your concern Cali.  The reason the class/combat system with no dedicated healers and no dedicated tanks were working is because the damage cannot be mitigated enough to the point the weak non-self heals can heal through.  Now, the GW2 system with this new trait system is possibly bridging that gap.  Now non-self heals can heal more and more damage can be mitigated.  How much of this is true is still to be seen depending on how large the bonuses are.  But certainly, the environment is all of a sudden very conducive to the holy trinity coming back into GW2.  

This is the first time I am considering if GW2 is going to get me back into playing MMOs again.

lol, I would reserve my judgement until i actually test out the game. Without experiencing those earlier versions of attribute and traits would not allow me to make comparsion on which system is better. Hence i believe the impact wont too great for myself.

I will still be swapping to other weapons/skills in pve/dungeon (even if they do not benefit from my current traits) if the situation deems necessary. So what if i do less damage than a well spec player. All i have to do is to be 2x more skillful in dodging or applying hits to mobs. This is by far better than eating dirt all the time or jumping back to town for a respec.

Originally posted by cali59

I have no problem whatsoever with free and easy respec.  I believe that this game will have all kinds of different encounters where it will be advantageous to put together a strategy with your group before each attempt.  I've said on several occasions, it's like your group has a collection of skills, and it's up to you all to combine them as needed to beat an encounter.

The problem I have with this system is if they don't want you to respec your traits in a dungeon, it affects what happens in those different encounters.  The example I used was a warrior entering a dungeon in a spec skewed towards control with say 30 points in Defense, 30 in Tactics and 10 in Discipline.  This gives them max bonuses to Toughness, Vitality, Compassion and Concentration, with minor bonuses to Prowess and Brawn.

Suppose they reach a boss that can't be approached in melee and this warrior needs to take out a Rifle.  If they could respec, they might go for max bonuses to Power, Precision, Malice and Expertise (and still keep minor Prowess and Brawn).  If you can get 300 to TWO of these stats with 30 points and as that video shows, you can theoretically get 125 Power by equipping all five of your pieces of gear with Runes, then that seems like a pretty significant effect, not to mention the potential damage boosting from the actual traits themselves.

So I don't see it like it doesn't make a difference what traits you have.  And if it didn't make a difference what traits you have (because you couldn't gimp yourself no matter what you did), then why have a complicated trait system at all?

I see this as a major misunderstanding of what the trait system is supposed to do. It is not a talent tree. You're not supposed to respecc on the spot for a specific scenario. You cannot trait into a specific role, and not traiting for a specific role will not make you invalid for it.

There's this video that was posted a lot in the last days, of a Warrior who solo'd elite mobs without taking any damage at all. I love that video because it demonstrates so well why people need to let go of the idea of min-maxing for tank and healer roles. Could you even tell whether that Warrior was traited for offense or defense. Would it even matter?

You can never be required to trait for healing because traiting for healing still doesn't make you a healer. If you keep dieing in a dungeon, improving your healing is just one way of many ways to try and solve that, and from what we know about combat, it's actually the least efficient option.

Traits customize your character, allow you to emphasize specific aspects you like. I can trait my Elementalist to maximize the ability to cause burning. That doesn't make him a fire mage, and using nothing but fire attunement would be the wrong way to play. 

I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

THIS IS AWFUL!

Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

Don't do it ANet I beg you!

What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

Originally posted by friednietz

What a mess.

Permanence is the least of the problems I see here. One can always respec but for a fee to a trainer, so it's not so bad. Unlike Arena.Net I don't see the importance of ball and chaining players when they want to respec to try a different strategy against a difficult encounter while in a dungeon for example. But hey, wiki should be completed within 3 weeks of release so you can check what works and what doesn't work before entering a difficult instance lololol.

On the other hand, all the profession specific attributes that decrease recharge time seem lame when compared to the prof. specific attributes that improve life force (health), damage etc.

Good gracious look at how lame the guardian's attribute is. It either provides virtue spamming (lol dynamic comabt) or it reduces all recharge by 5-10 seconds which is just bland for the Virtues of Justice and Courage since they only trigger once. Why not let it provide longer durations on the boons that are triggered when they activate their virtues.

Recharge reduction was really broken in GW1 because it enabled ridiculous skill combos that otherwise wouldn't be possible (because of high recharge).    Depending on the build/skills you use, recharge reduction might actually be more worthwhile.

Regarding the whole issue though, I think it's a non-issue.   You shouldn't be able to change your skills/attributes on the fly because that'd make it way to easy to quickly switch to whatever specific skills/traits best fit each encounter.   In GW1, picking the right set of skills is challenging because you have to be prepared to deal with everything in the instance/dungeon before you exit town.    There shouldn't be an option to just swap in silver bullets then swap them back out again.   That'd defeat the whole purpose of a limited skill bar where every skill choice matters.  

These systems seem like pseudo-customization.... they make people think they can make their characters a lot differently than each other, but the systems are so watered down and cookie cutter builds will run amok. 

I hope gw2 makes it so you can't inspect or look at other people's builds online or in-game.  

love the Attributes!!!!!

Attribute points are a must in every mmorpg. Many mmos ( Most of them p2p) limit their players by not allowing  us to freely add attribute points to our character. This should not be accepted anymore

attributes + GW2 + me = <3

lol

I like the customization of the trait system. It seems like everyone wants to have a universal build which enables them to be the best at everything. Your weapon/utility selection are suppose to be versatile to enable you a choice as to what role you want to play. 

As far as not being picked for an dungeon, I heard that the devs have cleared dungeons with 5 elementalist just to show the flexiblity of control/support/dps system. The point of doing a dungeon is to clear it with as little deaths as possible and player skill should be the determing factor on if your fail a dungeon. It is not just to play a dungeon like wow be the top dps during every encounter and curse at your healer for not healing you, while you are standing in the fire. 

As far as only being able to have 2 attunements traited for max dps,I do not see why that is a problem? You are not going to be constantly swapping to all 4 attunements as an elementalist. Their is a 10/20 second cooldown so you will only be using your favorite 3 at most. Yes all 4 attunements have traited to reduce their skills cooldown. Still if you are planning on constantly swapping attunements I am sure once we see the full arcane power traits it will benifit that play style.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

THIS IS AWFUL!

Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

Don't do it ANet I beg you!

What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

I'm gonna' have to agree with the naysayers this time - this looks like Talent Points all over again, and all Talent Points have ever done is allowed people to screw up their character, or "gimp themselves" as it's called.

It may not be as big a deal without something like raiding to put traits under a microscope in order to get that extra 1% you need off the boss's health this time, but it's still going on my list of 'cons' for GW2.

Originally posted by Naqaj

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

THIS IS AWFUL!

Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

Don't do it ANet I beg you!

What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

seriously, listen to naqaj. this all would be hilarious if it didn't ressemble spooked cattle so much (spooked cattle are not hilarious, fyi). so first off: the warrior trees aren't weapon based at all. read the d**n article before you flip out. second off: you will have 70 points to put into the trees, where each tree has a max of 30 points. so  you have plenty of points to go around, even if it mattered. a quick google search will get you this page, and that clearly shows that the elemental traits let you do extra stuff in that element, and does not buff up that element until the other three are useless in comparison.

and as a final note: heaven forfend that your character should be unique and specialized. that would be tragic wouldn't it?

EDIT: have a video which reminds me of the new batch of doomsayers. seriously. i can't tell who is more annoying concerning GW2: the fanbois, or the doomsayers. neither party seems to want to use that few pounds of gray mush in their heads that they were endowed with.

Originally posted by atticusbc

Originally posted by Naqaj

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

THIS IS AWFUL!

Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

Don't do it ANet I beg you!

What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

seriously, listen to naqaj. this all would be hilarious if it didn't ressemble spooked cattle so much (spooked cattle are not hilarious, fyi). so first off: the warrior trees aren't weapon based at all. read the d**n article before you flip out. second off: you will have 70 points to put into the trees, where each tree has a max of 30 points. so  you have plenty of points to go around, even if it mattered. a quick google search will get you this page, and that clearly shows that the elemental traits let you do extra stuff in that element, and does not buff up that element until the other three are useless in comparison.

and as a final note: heaven forfend that your character should be unique and specialized. that would be tragic wouldn't it?

Not saying that being unique, which has a chance of not happening after stuff gets min/maxed, is a bad thing, but isn't one of the ideas behind this game being able to adapt to any situation and the traits might somewhat limit that? Maybe I got that adapting to any situation wrong, it's a genuine question. Because it will somewhat ipend that if what you said and I highlighted is right.

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Not saying that being unique, which has a chance of not happening after stuff gets min/maxed, is a bad thing, but isn't one of the ideas behind this game being able to adapt to any situation and the traits might somewhat limit that? Maybe I got that adapting to any situation wrong, it's a genuine question. Because it will somewhat ipend that if what you said and I highlighted is right.

Exactly the thing people are misunderstanding. The traits modify specific mechanics that are tied to your abilities, but they do not cause a massive shift in their functionality or power. They don't make an ability valid. It is valid all by itself. They cause your ability to have a neat extra effect. You don't use the ability for that effect, you use it for what the ability already does.

You don't have to trait into fire magic to make it your damage attunement. It already is your damage attunement. The traits just allow you to do more interesting things with it. And you'll still have to use the other attunements when the situation calls for it. An Elementalist that never leaves the fire attunement is a scrub, no matter what he traited in.

Originally posted by Creslin321

I'm cool with the attribute changes, but traits...scare me.

Let me be clear, that nothing about their specific implementation scared me, on the contrary, I loved all the trait examples they gave.  But traits are essentially an analog to talent trees, and talent trees have had a singular purpose in every MMORPG they are in.  And that purpose is to pigeonhole you into one role.

Maybe that's the only purpose they serve for some, but I think for others, they help with a feeling of attachment to the character, that you've developed and personalized it a certain way.  If you can swap it around on the fly, it ceases being different from anyone else's character.  It also makes leveling up more fun, if there are choices to be made along the way, and they cease being choices at all, if they can just be changed at any time.

I'm guessing the ESports crowd will hate this, but the RPG crowd will like it?