Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

To me, YES.

The way I see it, if you are regularly paying every month / 3 months / 6 months / yearly / Lifetime Sub, then that should give you fair access to anything introduced into the game, provided you earn it.  Earn it with the game's currency (no I'm not including bought credits either), questing, drops, or even just logging in (like veteran player rewards).  Whatever.

When companies hold back content to sell it to you repeatedly and trying to nickle and dime you every month, despite you being a regularly paying customer, I have big issues with that.

The only thing that is suitable is buying Expansion Packs, which usually meant a *massive* series of additions to the game.

Originally posted by legendsolo

Originally posted by WhySoShort

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by WhySoShort

Considering that the sub fee in most MMOs is a rip-off anyways, I think a sub fee with a cash shop is usually just a slap in the face. I would count LOTRO as the exception, because they give you points to buy stuff in the cash shop as a part of the subscription. 

So does Funcom.

Do they? I haven't heard anything about that. Source please

Most likely he meant  The Secret Wold which has a sub fee, cash shop and box price

"At the presentation we revealed that The Secret World will feature a traditional paid subscription model combined with micro-transactions through an in-game store. This information was provided as part of Funcom's financial forecast going forward, and no further details were given due to the fact that we are still working on finalizing the model."

http://www.darkdemonscrygaia.com/showthread.php?p=523662

Ah, so we were very confused.

pretty basic rule set for me when it comes to mmo's.
FTP/not PTW and I will play it.
FTP/ PTW and wont touch it.
box+item shop wont touch it.
sub only and I will play it.
sub+cash shop= rot in hell before I even look at it:)

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

To me, YES.

The way I see it, if you are regularly paying every month / 3 months / 6 months / yearly / Lifetime Sub, then that should give you fair access to anything introduced into the game, provided you earn it.  Earn it with the game's currency (no I'm not including bought credits either), questing, drops, or even just logging in (like veteran player rewards).  Whatever.

When companies hold back content to sell it to you repeatedly and trying to nickle and dime you every month, despite you being a regularly paying customer, I have big issues with that.

The only thing that is suitable is buying Expansion Packs, which usually meant a *massive* series of additions to the game.

That's cognitive bias at work.

Like it or not, its the way tje industry works now.  The only two MMORPGs in the last 6 or 7 years that I know of without a cash shop of some sort is swtor and ffxiv, and if I recall ffxiv gives you a tiny amount of character slots so youll have to buy more.  Could be wrong on that one though, been a while.

Depends on the cash shop

Xp pots and fluff items I could care less about. I have no interested in rushing to endgame so xp pots are useless to me, and fluff items. Well I never cared about those either

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

To me, YES.

The way I see it, if you are regularly paying every month / 3 months / 6 months / yearly / Lifetime Sub, then that should give you fair access to anything introduced into the game, provided you earn it.  Earn it with the game's currency (no I'm not including bought credits either), questing, drops, or even just logging in (like veteran player rewards).  Whatever.

When companies hold back content to sell it to you repeatedly and trying to nickle and dime you every month, despite you being a regularly paying customer, I have big issues with that.

The only thing that is suitable is buying Expansion Packs, which usually meant a *massive* series of additions to the game.

That's cognitive bias at work.

Expansion Packs for PC games, which of course MMORPGs are a part of, were worth it back in the day.  They really used to have to cram alot into those packs.  New, large maps, more classes, more abilities for all, more gear for all, more and more of everything.  Edit to add:  Also, NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY ever complained, even whispered any sort of discontent in the earlier years of MMORPG gaming, about having to pay for an Expansion Pack on top of the regular subscriptions that dominated the genre then.

Now, don't confuse old school Expansion Packs with what passes as "expansions" and DLC these days.  I've only seen ONE MMORPG title in all these years add massive expansions for free as part of the subscription.  And that was LOTRO before the F2P move a few years ago.

Originally posted by Zaltark

If Im already paying a sub, why am I being charged more for ingame content? Is that not what the sub is for? Sub + CashShop = greed to me. Im not buying it.

The sub is so you can fund all those talented artists while they create cash shop content that you aren't going to buy.

I have no problems paying the box price, I don't even have a problem with a sub or a cash shop.  I do have a problem with being ripped off; paying for the box, a sub and a cash shop is a no go.  If a game has all three the box can sit on the shelf until such time that it is free to play, I have no desire to be ripped off.

I hate cash shops and I hate esports in my mmos. But it doesnt look like that is going to change anytime soon so I just have to deal with it.

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by Zaltark

If Im already paying a sub, why am I being charged more for ingame content? Is that not what the sub is for? Sub + CashShop = greed to me. Im not buying it.

The sub is so you can fund all those talented artists while they create cash shop content that you aren't going to buy.

Don't say that too loud. They'll start charging you a subscription fee to use shops in real life soon. A sort of wellfare system for stores that sell things that people won't buy.

...I can actually see that happening. 

Yes because its greedy to give out the points along with the sub fee so you can access the cash shop for no additional charge. in truth if you wanna argue it. they are making you spend LESS monthy if you consiter the cost for the points you are getting.

Originally posted by LadyNoh

Yes because its greedy to give out the points along with the sub fee so you can access the cash shop for no additional charge. in truth if you wanna argue it. they are making you spend LESS monthy if you consiter the cost for the points you are getting.

"give out" "getting" Seriously?

First of all - you're buying them with your subscription.

Secondly - just cause they include bit of points in things you buy with your sub ,it does NOT make it better in ANY way. It still totally violate what subsription should be. Not to mention this argument totally misses point that OP made.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

To me, YES.

The way I see it, if you are regularly paying every month / 3 months / 6 months / yearly / Lifetime Sub, then that should give you fair access to anything introduced into the game, provided you earn it.  Earn it with the game's currency (no I'm not including bought credits either), questing, drops, or even just logging in (like veteran player rewards).  Whatever.

When companies hold back content to sell it to you repeatedly and trying to nickle and dime you every month, despite you being a regularly paying customer, I have big issues with that.

The only thing that is suitable is buying Expansion Packs, which usually meant a *massive* series of additions to the game.

That's cognitive bias at work.

Expansion Packs for PC games, which of course MMORPGs are a part of, were worth it back in the day.  They really used to have to cram alot into those packs.  New, large maps, more classes, more abilities for all, more gear for all, more and more of everything.  Edit to add:  Also, NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY ever complained, even whispered any sort of discontent in the earlier years of MMORPG gaming, about having to pay for an Expansion Pack on top of the regular subscriptions that dominated the genre then.

Now, don't confuse old school Expansion Packs with what passes as "expansions" and DLC these days.  I've only seen ONE MMORPG title in all these years add massive expansions for free as part of the subscription.  And that was LOTRO before the F2P move a few years ago.

Still cognitive bias. You've always paid for expansion packs, so you accept that. Now, when presented with the option to pick the features you want and pay a fraction of the price for only the content you want, rather than have to pay full price even if you don't want all the content, you choose the latter. To put it numerically, when given the choice of selecting from 20 items at 2 dollars a piece or paying one 40 dollar price even if you only want a few of the items, you choose the latter, despite it being the less logical choice.

Your contention was that you should get everything for your 15 dollars. You don't want your money and the devteam resources diverted to content that they are going to make separately and sell back to you. Well, that's what an expansion is. However, you have already told yourself it is acceptable to buy the expansion and you have grown used to it. As a result of that, you are not looking at your choices rationally. Most subscription MMO developers are very happy about that, and they'd love for you to keep thinking the way you are thinking.

As for free expansions, plenty of developers have been doing them for eight or nine years now. EVE Online, Lineage 2 and City of Heroes are examples of that.

I'd like you to list each of the issues you have with Item Malls, Cash Shops, in-game microtransactions, or whatever it's being called this week. After that, look down that list and - with an open mind - ask yourself is that applies to expansions. I'm not asking you to post it in this thread but rather for you to do it at your leisure on paper, Notepad or even just mentally. You'll be surprised at the results.

Cheers!

City of heroes has sub option and cash shop.  BUT people who sub get 400 points a month these points can usually buy costume packs out right.

WoW sells mounts atm (for a high price imo) but people generally seem fine with it.

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

if you are paying monthly to access the game and all its content you must have access to that leather jacket as well via in game vendors / monster loot / pvp / etc...

If companies now consider monthly fees are not profitable enough and have to open cash shops, might as well become full cash shop mmos and remove the subscription. They are just killing their own game by having both. And silly the players who support them for the sake of playing a new game.

@Loktofeit

It is preety simple really.

Expansion pack = give everyone just access to new zones / classes / quests ,etc  AND it has finite max price.  Still provide level playing field.

Cash shop = dozens, hundreads or even thousands items and things added on on-going term. Huge majority is direct items (cosmetics ,armors, mounts, buffs ,in-game gold, etc) or even mechanics taken out of game and put into cash shop.  Sometimes there is a bit of content (zones, classes ,etc) but almsot all of items and sales are made on direct item buying.

Virtually infinite amount of money can be spend in there. It promote and lives on making diffrences between players, it affects game play directly (best looking cosmetics exclusive at store, increasing in-game grind to fuel certain item sales or xp boosts sales , not to mention direct advantage sales in some games , gambling sales like lockboxes with small chance on rare item, etc) + it ruin immersion by having this huge direct connetion between game itself and real world money at all times.

That is just scratching the surface.

If you cannot see diffrence between microtransaction cash shop and one time buy expasnion pack which is usually 1 -once per year (or rarer even) - then really I have no more words.

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

It is more or less standard procedure nowadays, EQ2 started it 3 years or so ago and Wow soon followed.

I agree with you, why boxes + monthly fees can´t be enough for us to get al of the content is a good question. It seems like most MMO devs were highway robbers in thier past lifes or something.

@Loke666

Publishers don't do this because they have to.  They do it cause they CAN.

When this kind of behaviour will start to affect their sales they some of them may reconsider this with future titles.

This is only way - vote with wallet.

One of reasons I am not playing WoW, EQ2 and freemium games. If my sub is not enough to give me level playing field (ofc there is still issue of illegal rmt, botting and other things but well nothing is perfect) and provide me with virtual world with sub then it is not worth my money and I am better with playing non-mmorpg multiplayer games where I don't care about immersion and spending on non-gaming things.

It is just that simple.

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by MaikkyWin

For me, when I buy a MMO and there is a sub fee I expect access to everything, even if its just cosmetic .

I just read somewhere (I don't remember if it was on MMORPG.com) that The Secret World (Or was that that other funcom game) might have a model that requires sub to play but a cash shop for cosmetics . (If my information is incorrect, I'm sorry, but I'd still like the question to be answered.)

This has complelty turned me off from the game, which I was really excited for.

So what do you think about paying a box-price, having to pay a sub price and also needing to use cash shop to get ALL content for a game ?

Depends.

Do you consider wearing a black leather jacket from a cash shop, content?

 

if you are paying monthly to access the game and all its content you must have access to that leather jacket as well via in game vendors / monster loot / pvp / etc...

If companies now consider monthly fees are not profitable enough and have to open cash shops, might as well become full cash shop mmos and remove the subscription. They are just killing their own game by having both. And silly the players who support them for the sake of playing a new game.

 

I think it's silly that fluff is considered content. Is it really going to be a gamebreaker if I look different than you?