Originally posted by mmoDAD

I strongly disagree with #5 and #1.

#1. Guild Wars' WvW does seem like a cool idea. However, it's ultimately still scripted pvp. In MMO games, I yearn for unpredictability. We need an elaborate World PvP setting with meaning and proper sanctions.

What do you mean by its still scripted pvp? It seems that if you want open "ganking mess" world pvp with sanctions you end up with what you seem to be calling scripted pvp.....

Originally posted by Azureal

I shudder to think that other development studios may also see SWTOR's cinematics as "innovative" and trundle along the same tracks as BW, completely ignoring other fundamental game systems (UI, guild functions, PvP).

 

 

 

agreed. it's nice to have obviously, but completely unnecessary fluff that adds nothing to the genre. the article also brings up a good point about only having VA for the main story quests, because why would anyone want to listen and respond to a 15 minute convo about collecting power generators and killing space rats?

I'd be curious to see a story done right in an MMO some day, as long as they don't just hamfist a single player game set up into an online game with a monthly fee

Not showing my edit for some reason, but I forgot also TSW since not released it's just a promised feature.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Coldren

I would disagree with getting credit for "open" WvWvW.. If I understand it correctly, you have to que up for it. Through that necessity alone, it makes it instanced, not open. You can't just go out and join, you have to wait in line.

DAoC is the only game that had true open, non-istanced WvWvW (RvRvR), and technically when they clustered servers (Before the merged to Ywain, or whatever the super cluster is called) 3 or 4 at a time, they did it first.

GW2 WvWvW might be persistant, which in and of itself is good, but it's not truly open. Although if I am wrong about the necessity to que up, than I apologize.

 

1. You queue up only if the WvW zone you want to enter is overcrowded. But you have 3 other zones to choose from. It's the same as queuing for an overcrowded server.

2. As I recall, DAoC's RvR took place in specially designated zones. Just like GW2. And unlike in DAoC you can go and meaningfully RvR (WvW) from level 2... So, GW2's open PvP is actually more "open" than DAoC's.

 

Neither DAoC nor GW2 has open world pvp. It's all instanced or "dedicated zone".

I want a game where the ENTIRE WORLD is the battleground. EverQuest II's Nagafen PvP did this to a very mild extend. There were no guild bases to take down or anything, but pvp was certainly more exciting that this "expected" pvp balogna.

 

Well, it's "scripted" just like a game of chess is "scripted" - I mean, it's all about who gets the king first, right? Yawn... And RL wars are soo scripted and predictable as well, you know that you can't shoot guys wearing your own uniform.. Booooriiiing.

Joking aside, I see your point with whole world being PvP zone. That's a matter of taste for sure and I totally would like a game like that... HOWEVER The WvW area is so huge and varied it could basically be a game in itself. You don't have to set foot into any other part of the game if you wish to...

Personally, I've been waiting for a DAoC style three way massive warfare for so long, I'd happily pay the box price if GW2 had nothing except WvW.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

 

Neither DAoC nor GW2 has open world pvp. It's all instanced or "dedicated zone".

I want a game where the ENTIRE WORLD is the battleground. EverQuest II's Nagafen PvP did this to a very mild extend. There were no guild bases to take down or anything, but pvp was certainly more exciting that this "expected" pvp balogna.

hmm that sounds like a good helping of gank fest to no end......fun...

Originally posted by Coldren

I would disagree with getting credit for "open" WvWvW.. If I understand it correctly, you have to que up for it. Through that necessity alone, it makes it instanced, not open. You can't just go out and join, you have to wait in line.

DAoC is the only game that had true open, non-istanced WvWvW (RvRvR), and technically when they clustered servers (Before the merged to Ywain, or whatever the super cluster is called) 3 or 4 at a time, they did it first.

GW2 WvWvW might be persistant, which in and of itself is good, but it's not truly open. Although if I am wrong about the necessity to que up, than I apologize.

 

You can go out and join unless the zone you're trying to enter is full or has reached the max amount of characters your World can have in that zone.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

1. You queue up only if the WvW zone you want to enter is overcrowded. But you have 3 other zones to choose from. It's the same as queuing for an overcrowded server.

2. As I recall, DAoC's RvR took place in specially designated zones. Just like GW2. And unlike in DAoC you can go and meaningfully RvR (WvW) from level 2... So, GW2's open PvP is actually more "open" than DAoC's.

1) If it was "open", anyone could walk in at any time, overcrowded or not, as you could in the RvR zones. Putting an artifical cap on the number of people immediately indicates that it is an access-restricted area, and not really open.

2) Yes, it was in specifically design zones, but you could go there at ANY time, at any level. Wether or not you were effective isn't the point. No, it did not scale up your level, so you were little more than cannon fodder, but you could most definitely walk in to any RvR zone if you wanted.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by mmoDAD

I strongly disagree with #5 and #1.

#1. Guild Wars' WvW does seem like a cool idea. However, it's ultimately still scripted pvp. In MMO games, I yearn for unpredictability. We need an elaborate World PvP setting with meaning and proper sanctions.

What do you mean by its still scripted pvp? It seems that if you want open "ganking mess" world pvp with sanctions you end up with what you seem to be calling scripted pvp.....

 

"...with meaning and proper sanctions."

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by mmoDAD

 

Neither DAoC nor GW2 has open world pvp. It's all instanced or "dedicated zone".

I want a game where the ENTIRE WORLD is the battleground. EverQuest II's Nagafen PvP did this to a very mild extend. There were no guild bases to take down or anything, but pvp was certainly more exciting that this "expected" pvp balogna.

hmm that sounds like a good helping of gank fest to no end......fun...

 

You're right. Let's go play Huttball for the 10,000th time.

Nice list... BUT...

5 - 100% voice acting IS NOT innovative to me. Just an other way of bringing the story to the player and a way to remove the  <click-till-ACCEPT> way of questing for a lot of players.

3 - Foundry innovative..? I agree, let players build their quests is indeed an innovation (EQ2 included it as well last expansion), but STo was not the 1st MMO to bring it - Ryzom was (or was it Dark & Light?)

Of all the things that GW2 is doing, I'm suprised that WvW was selected as the most innovative, especially since it really isn't that much of innovation at all.  Dynamic events completely replacing questing and removing the holy in trinity in favor of a much more fluid and flexible system, are far greater game changers.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by mmoDAD

I strongly disagree with #5 and #1.

#1. Guild Wars' WvW does seem like a cool idea. However, it's ultimately still scripted pvp. In MMO games, I yearn for unpredictability. We need an elaborate World PvP setting with meaning and proper sanctions.

What do you mean by its still scripted pvp? It seems that if you want open "ganking mess" world pvp with sanctions you end up with what you seem to be calling scripted pvp.....

 

"...with meaning and proper sanctions."

So what are "proper sanctions"?

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by mmoDAD

 

Neither DAoC nor GW2 has open world pvp. It's all instanced or "dedicated zone".

I want a game where the ENTIRE WORLD is the battleground. EverQuest II's Nagafen PvP did this to a very mild extend. There were no guild bases to take down or anything, but pvp was certainly more exciting that this "expected" pvp balogna.

hmm that sounds like a good helping of gank fest to no end......fun...

 

You're right. Let's go play Huttball for the 10,000th time.

Dang, I never thought I would say this.....but I prefer huttball.....

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

 I keep telling myself I'll get around to prodcuing a foundry mission just to try it out. I'm not real creative, but the draw of telling a story in the Star Trek universe is appealing.

 

 

I gotta say... for the halibut I tried a couple foundry missions in STO this weekend, and I was really impressed!  I was expecting them to have alot of the same issues that the COX player built missions had, but at least in those 2, the plots were very well thought out and clearly made with the intent to be interesting rather than to grind XP/loot.

They were easily on par with the episode missions, only without the cutscenes.

I guess that's the lesson I learned after dismissing the system for so long without trying it.  If you have a beloved, rich IP, and you remove the XP/loot incentive(from my experience, anomalies are turned off and there are no EoM reward options) from the picture, people JUST MIGHT make some cool stuff.

There were some missions in the list that I was shy of... where they said "don't try if you don't like reading" and had puzzles, etc.  I can't help but consider my experience with some hardcore trekkies, and I'd wager they would stick a little factoid in at the beginning where "Naz Kahn Drogg received the medal of Vorpalkickassness in 2392 while wearing a Zebonoidinal chastity belt manufactured on Chevyvega 5 during the celebration of the running of the Nemoidian Bulls",  and then, an hour into the mission, have to recall the name of the 3rd bull that ran out of the pen and 5 dozen other things to continue.

I´m pretty sure Age of Conan did voice acting first in massive  scale,swtor just pushed it over the edge,or who wants to hear huttball opening ceremony 100 times per day ?

Originally posted by Coldren

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

1. You queue up only if the WvW zone you want to enter is overcrowded. But you have 3 other zones to choose from. It's the same as queuing for an overcrowded server.

2. As I recall, DAoC's RvR took place in specially designated zones. Just like GW2. And unlike in DAoC you can go and meaningfully RvR (WvW) from level 2... So, GW2's open PvP is actually more "open" than DAoC's.

1) If it was "open", anyone could walk in at any time, overcrowded or not, as you could in the RvR zones. Putting an artifical cap on the number of people immediately indicates that it is an access-restricted area, and not really open.

Lol, so no online game ever created was "open" by your yardstick. Lol. If the server is overcrowded it either closes up or crashes. Period. End of story. That's it. The server can't handle any more. It has nothing to do with game design but the fact that there are technical limitations still present in the genre.

2) Yes, it was in specifically design zones, but you could go there at ANY time, at any level. Wether or not you were effective isn't the point. No, it did not scale up your level, so you were little more than cannon fodder, but you could most definitely walk in to any RvR zone if you wanted.

Same thing then.

 

 

Almost forgot, I'm pretty sure the Mission Architect from CoX predates the Foundry by a year or two.  Wouldn't that make CoX the innovator?

Originally posted by ForumPvP

I´m pretty sure Age of Conan did voice acting first in massive  scale,swtor just pushed it over the edge,or who wants to hear huttball opening ceremony 100 times per day ?

 

 

Forsaken world has WvW too. About "no armor snobery", well, we had Chronicles of spellborn, Coh and so on.

Those are the best examples of innovation you can come up with?  Your list seems to be more about picking a feature in a high-profile game than searching for innovation.  It's kind of like how college football's Heisman Trophy supposedly goes to the "most outstanding player", but usually only goes to a pretty good quarterback or running back on one of the top few teams, so it's the most outstanding player from a group of about ten, rather than about ten thousand or so players in Division I-A.

#5)  Voiceovers in MMORPGs are hardly new.  Saying we're going to voice over everything isn't so much innovation as stupidity.  And besides, Wizard 101 had already done it.

#4)  A nice enough idea.  Champions Online already did it back in 2009.  Guild Wars came not far away from it years before that even.  For that matter, A Tale in the Desert did that about nine years ago.

#3)  Cool idea.  City of Heroes already did it.

So your first three examples of innovation are basically, game X copied something from some other game(s).  Now, I'm hardly against copying good ideas.  But that's not innovation.

I'm not familiar with your #2, and I don't think we can really gauge how innovative #1 will be just yet.

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It's not like there aren't any examples of innovation to point to.  How about Spiral Knights grouping system?  Dozens of games before it had struggled to make grouping with other players practical, and mostly failed at it.  Spiral Knights actually fixed the problem.

How about the adventuring system in Uncharted Waters Online?  Go out into the world and discover things--including much of the game's best gear.  I've never seen anything else remotely like it in any other game, MMORPG or otherwise.

How about Vanguard's diplomacy system?

Or how about A Tale in the Desert's... well, just about anything in A Tale in the Desert.

As has previously been mentioned point 3 and 4 are wrong. They were both beaten to that by Ryzom(3) (and according to some here even CoH) and The Chronicles of Spellborn (4). Sadly 2 great games that could have been so much more but still had some pretty nice features in them.