Originally posted by forest-nl

 

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Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.  
 
DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

---

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Here's what I dont get.

Why is it that if someone doesn't want to be inadvertantly caught up in a totally unfair fight they're automatically labled a "carebear" and they want their hands held through everything? Where's the middle ground?

If someone wants to fight me head on, one on one, on equal ground, I have no problem with it. When someone brings a bazooka to a knife fight, though, its just not fun anymore. This is the kind of mentality that turns a lot of people away from these types of games.

If someone at or near my own level attacks me, and I lose, I'll be like, "dammit I lost" and maybe try to get him back if I think I can. Hell, I'm one of those people who will try to help little guys if I see them being bullied by someone bigger than them. I did this a lot in Age of Conan. I camped the noob campers when I was bored. Those same people usually run from a fair fight.

Its not the game mechanics I hate, its the cowards that abuse it for the sole purpose of making other peoples lives miserable.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by forest-nl

 

---

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.  
 
DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

---

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Here's what I dont get.

Why is it that if someone doesn't want to be inadvertantly caught up in a totally unfair fight they're automatically labled a "carebear" and they want their hands held through everything? Where's the middle ground?

If someone wants to fight me head on, one on one, on equal ground, I have no problem with it. When someone brings a bazooka to a knife fight, though, its just not fun anymore. This is the kind of mentality that turns a lot of people away from these types of games.

If someone at or near my own level attacks me, and I lose, I'll be like, "dammit I lost" and maybe try to get him back if I think I can. Hell, I'm one of those people who will try to help little guys if I see them being bullied by someone bigger than them. I did this a lot in Age of Conan. I camped the noob campers when I was bored. Those same people usually run from a fair fight.

Its not the game mechanics I hate, its the cowards that abuse it for the sole purpose causing other people trouble.

I don't understand why the pure crafter does not have a skill that makes him able to elude the predators. It makes no sense really. It is a poor game design that requires the people who create and toil nothing more than lambs to slaughter.  Someone wearing gathering clothes and with the right skills attainable only to pure crafter characters should be able to outrun a predator. This should not be 100% guaranteed though. It should always be a possibility.

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by forest-nl

 

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Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.  
 
DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

---

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Here's what I dont get.

Why is it that if someone doesn't want to be inadvertantly caught up in a totally unfair fight they're automatically labled a "carebear" and they want their hands held through everything? Where's the middle ground?

If someone wants to fight me head on, one on one, on equal ground, I have no problem with it. When someone brings a bazooka to a knife fight, though, its just not fun anymore. This is the kind of mentality that turns a lot of people away from these types of games.

If someone at or near my own level attacks me, and I lose, I'll be like, "dammit I lost" and maybe try to get him back if I think I can. Hell, I'm one of those people who will try to help little guys if I see them being bullied by someone bigger than them. I did this a lot in Age of Conan. I camped the noob campers when I was bored. Those same people usually run from a fair fight.

Its not the game mechanics I hate, its the cowards that abuse it for the sole purpose causing other people trouble.

I don't understand why the pure crafter does not have a skill that makes him able to elude the predators. It makes no sense really. It is a poor game design that requires the people who create and toil nothing more than lambs to slaughter.  Someone wearing gathering clothes and with the right skills attainable only to pure crafter characters should be able to outrun a predator. This should not be 100% guaranteed though. It should always be a possibility.

Do you know of many farmers, artisans, merchants or present day Civilians that are able to elude professional trained military personnel?

It is just not the nature of things.

The way it is suposed to work is that the stronger defend the weaker against the predators.

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

Originally posted by Suraknar

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

Except you're on the internet.  The only white knights here rescue 'girls'.

Darkfall is cool and all but there's a motive behind these posts that people like lolmac make.  There's a lack of sheep in the game for people like him to prey on.

'Wolves' won't hunt other predators - they're looking for something they can easily kill without much risk.  So the newbies are their food.  Why waste your time actually risking death when you can take your gear and macroed skills to one of the newbie goblin spawns, wait for one to start on their first NPC kills, and jump them while they are figuring out how to drag the dead npc's gear to their backpack?

Frustrated by the ease of death to a veteran player - and the loss of all the gold and items they've collected and not put in the bank, which is pretty devastating to a newbie - they quit.  So the wolf succeeds by making a sheep ragequit, and they feel good.

But then they've realized that all their food is gone.

Adventurine doesn't realize that they need to support newbies a bit more, or else they will just end up quitting and not giving the game a fair shot.  CCP has it down, and IMO, it's the main reason why EVE is successful (even if the game is terrible, but that's really another discussion).  CCP supports the newbies so they get nice and fat, making them a tastier snack for the wolves AND giving the sheep some belief that they even belong in the game world.

Because of this, it's really up to the griefers and gankers to guide the newbies until they become nice and fat, since the developer won't.   That's a laugh, right?  There's anti-PKers, but when have they been 'feared', really?  The big clans in DF that pride themselves on protecting their newbies are laughable.

Catering to newbies isn't a 'hardcore' thing to do, I definitely agree.  But it's not a 'carebear' thing to do, either.  And being newbie unfriendly is a great way to bleed a potential playerbase.

I like pvp.  I like pvp in battlefield/warfronts, I also like open world pvp.  I thrill at having to keep an eye looking over my shoulder, it makes the game feel alive.  

That said, non-level-restricted pvp is a bad idea.  It is not hard-core to slay someone who couldn't kill you even if you afk'd to take a piss in the middle of the fight.  There is no challenge and no risk for the attacker.  It is just pointless and ruins a game.  

The wild west had gunslingers and outlaws and is the good example of hardcore.  You could get away with a lot, but not everything.  For common criminals, people would form possies and go after them, which players could do now if there was a criminal system in the game.  But if people kept murdering children (lowbies) the government (GM's) would eventually send an army to deal with it.  However if the wild west was like most hardcore pvp games are, everybody would have moved away except the gunslingers and outlaws and there would be nobody left to rob, no cattle left to rustle.  

Full loot doesn't need to be a haven for bullies.  PVP has always been about skill, which is what makes it so fun.  Many people like a challenge, they don't like futility.  If you wan't a Hardcore full-loot game to survive you need to find balance.  

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by forest-nl

 

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Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.  
 
DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

---

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Here's what I dont get.

Why is it that if someone doesn't want to be inadvertantly caught up in a totally unfair fight they're automatically labled a "carebear" and they want their hands held through everything? Where's the middle ground?

If someone wants to fight me head on, one on one, on equal ground, I have no problem with it. When someone brings a bazooka to a knife fight, though, its just not fun anymore. This is the kind of mentality that turns a lot of people away from these types of games.

If someone at or near my own level attacks me, and I lose, I'll be like, "dammit I lost" and maybe try to get him back if I think I can. Hell, I'm one of those people who will try to help little guys if I see them being bullied by someone bigger than them. I did this a lot in Age of Conan. I camped the noob campers when I was bored. Those same people usually run from a fair fight.

Its not the game mechanics I hate, its the cowards that abuse it for the sole purpose causing other people trouble.

I don't understand why the pure crafter does not have a skill that makes him able to elude the predators. It makes no sense really. It is a poor game design that requires the people who create and toil nothing more than lambs to slaughter.  Someone wearing gathering clothes and with the right skills attainable only to pure crafter characters should be able to outrun a predator. This should not be 100% guaranteed though. It should always be a possibility.

Do you know of many farmers, artisans, merchants or present day Civilians that are able to elude professional trained military personnel?

It is just not the nature of things.

The way it is suposed to work is that the stronger defend the weaker against the predators.

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

The current stock of gamers seems to be lacking in the Chivalry department though. It's not the game's fault but society as a whole. People in new York won't rush to your aid when you're being mugged. 9/10 they will just keep on walking and pretend they don't see you. 

The ultimate issue with FFA full loot PvP  is there is no effective means to enforce balance.  For instance, the real world is the ultimate sandbox (and anyone who says otherwise really needs to grow a pair and wake up) and in this ultimate sandbox you cannot just go around slaughtering everyone in sight.  Not to say people don't get killed, that there isn't a wolf vs sheep dynamic.  Obviously there is BUT there are laws in place to help those who cannot always (or ever) help themselves.  Not everyone wants conflict.  There are people out there who pride themselves on building, trading, gathering, researching...in essence doing what equates to a job in a video game and that's fine.  That is why sandbox games are so appealing, in concept, to so many people out there.  The ability to do as you will to have an impact on the world around you.  To literally create a new world or society.

The problem is once developers add in FFA full loot PvP without any sort of safeguards (or laws as we would call them in the real world) the game degenerates into anarchy.  For those out there who want to create, build, discover and enrich those around them, their dream is crushed by the cruel, cold reality that the world is inhabited by people who want nothing better than to destroy.  This is one of the primary reasons that FFA full loot PvP games with no restrictions are not successful.  At the end of the day, the only people that really want to play a game that way are those with destruction and conflict as their primary motivations.  Unfortunately for them, a proper society cannot function that way nor can a video game with asperations beyond just merely being a niche offering.  By niche I mean with a small population which equates to a small revenue stream which equates to an unhappy company with a poor or negative ROI (return on investment).

Am I completely against FFA full loot PvP games?  Not completely per se though I can honestly say I've never been a fan of full loot.  I always considered coin and backpack items to be enough.  I've played EvE on and off for about 3-4 years.  In my opinion, the systems that they have in place are, on the whole, on the right track if a company is trying to build a successful sandbox game that can have mass appeal.  Though they really do need to nerf income coming from high sec.  When you can make plenty of money in an area with very minimal risk, you throw off the whole risk vs reward dynamics that a sandbox needs in order to thrive.  It reduces incentive to break away from the minimal risk area of the game to explore the entirety but that's an argument for a different day.

While i celebrate this threads attempt...i fear peoples opinions are set in solid stone these days...its nearly impossible to change someone viewpoint with a post....

While id love to see more full loot games....not for the pvp but for the better pve it creates.  People overlook the added dynamic of risk involved in their game.  Games have become so stale and so riskless that...nothing matters...doesnt matter if you win or lose.  Theres no fear of an area, another player, the unknown.  I can afk in any themepark any part of the world and have not fear other than a possible free teleport and a tiny repair bill.

I like games where it makes sense to explore and watch an areas...you know scout.  Have to watch your back...have a need to make the decision on "do i bank now that i have something valuable or stay here longer and really make this run profitable?"

The actual need for playing near friendlies other than the forced 5man requirement.

I think Darkfall does the full loot well...gear is easy to come by, breaks though normal pve wear and tear...theres no repairs so its going to go away anyway...good gear is saved for seiges where your city is on the line or for serious pve activites where youll have numbers.

Anyway...another side of me like full loot for the lack of the normal mmorpg community.  Which in recent times has become one of the best parts of games like DF......the community lacks a certain type of player...and this is a good thing.

Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by Suraknar

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

 

Except you're on the internet.  The only white knights here rescue 'girls'.

 

Darkfall is cool and all but there's a motive behind these posts that people like lolmac make.  There's a lack of sheep in the game for people like him to prey on.

 

'Wolves' won't hunt other predators - they're looking for something they can easily kill without much risk.  So the newbies are their food.  Why waste your time actually risking death when you can take your gear and macroed skills to one of the newbie goblin spawns, wait for one to start on their first NPC kills, and jump them while they are figuring out how to drag the dead npc's gear to their backpack?

 

Frustrated by the ease of death to a veteran player - and the loss of all the gold and items they've collected and not put in the bank, which is pretty devastating to a newbie - they quit.  So the wolf succeeds by making a sheep ragequit, and they feel good.

 

But then they've realized that all their food is gone.

 

Adventurine doesn't realize that they need to support newbies a bit more, or else they will just end up quitting and not giving the game a fair shot.  CCP has it down, and IMO, it's the main reason why EVE is successful (even if the game is terrible, but that's really another discussion).  CCP supports the newbies so they get nice and fat, making them a tastier snack for the wolves AND giving the sheep some belief that they even belong in the game world.

 

Because of this, it's really up to the griefers and gankers to guide the newbies until they become nice and fat, since the developer won't.   That's a laugh, right?  There's anti-PKers, but when have they been 'feared', really?  The big clans in DF that pride themselves on protecting their newbies are laughable.

 

Catering to newbies isn't a 'hardcore' thing to do, I definitely agree.  But it's not a 'carebear' thing to do, either.  And being newbie unfriendly is a great way to bleed a potential playerbase.

 

I think you just described exactly what brought Age of Conan to its knees. Sure the game wasn't full loot, but there were enough greifers camping noob areas and pretty much totally preventing them from leveling, that many just decided to quit.

Originally posted by Crunchy221

I like... using ellipses... very much...  how about you...

It's cool for the game to put pressure and the threat of death over your head.  I talk good about games like EVE, especially when you get into low and nullsec.

It's not cool to be camped and ganked as a fresh newbie due to one of the shittiest PK prevention / consequence systems in the genre.  Even Conquer has a better system than DF, and we all know how good that game is.

It's one thing to make newbies play carefully and provide a difficult challenge for them.  It's another to intentionally drive away your playerbase so fast that suddenly, Darkfall players are scrambling to the forums trying to get more sheep to log in so they can camp the newbie towns again.

Oh yeah, and DF has a lack of the 'normal mmorpg community' because the only people left are griefers and bots!

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by forest-nl

 

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Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.  
 
DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

---

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Here's what I dont get.

Why is it that if someone doesn't want to be inadvertantly caught up in a totally unfair fight they're automatically labled a "carebear" and they want their hands held through everything? Where's the middle ground?

If someone wants to fight me head on, one on one, on equal ground, I have no problem with it. When someone brings a bazooka to a knife fight, though, its just not fun anymore. This is the kind of mentality that turns a lot of people away from these types of games.

If someone at or near my own level attacks me, and I lose, I'll be like, "dammit I lost" and maybe try to get him back if I think I can. Hell, I'm one of those people who will try to help little guys if I see them being bullied by someone bigger than them. I did this a lot in Age of Conan. I camped the noob campers when I was bored. Those same people usually run from a fair fight.

Its not the game mechanics I hate, its the cowards that abuse it for the sole purpose causing other people trouble.

I don't understand why the pure crafter does not have a skill that makes him able to elude the predators. It makes no sense really. It is a poor game design that requires the people who create and toil nothing more than lambs to slaughter.  Someone wearing gathering clothes and with the right skills attainable only to pure crafter characters should be able to outrun a predator. This should not be 100% guaranteed though. It should always be a possibility.

Do you know of many farmers, artisans, merchants or present day Civilians that are able to elude professional trained military personnel?

It is just not the nature of things.

The way it is suposed to work is that the stronger defend the weaker against the predators.

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

The current stock of gamers seems to be lacking in the Chivalry department though. It's not the game's fault but society as a whole. People in new York won't rush to your aid when you're being mugged. 9/10 they will just keep on walking and pretend they don't see you. 

Well, fortunatelly MMO's are not filled up by people living in NY. If people in NY act like that then that is very sad for them, they lost their Humanity and it is up to them to find it again.

For many playing MMO's constitutes an escape from reality. What does that mean exactly? Maybe it can mean being transported to a Fantastic world where the laws of physics do not work like they do in Real Life, it may means being transported in to a world that harbors Fantastic creatures such as Dragons and Deamons, a world where Magic exists, and a world where, the Knight in shining Armor does Protect the weak and defend the Innocent.

Why is that too hard to accept, if you seek to espace how can you bring your lack of Humanity attitude and behavior in to that Fantastic world and then say "I play it for escapism"...what exctly are you escaping from if you are not even willing to try something different with your own behavior, and play within a different role from RL?

@Kherros, enjoyed your post and agree with mush you have said. Rest assured it is how I see it as well, and understand why these posts are here. Seen it all before.

That is not to say that I am not looking for a Good Sandbox Game that does have a Dangerous Wilderness and there is something to Lose, but it will not be Darkfall.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Do you know of many farmers, artisans, merchants or present day Civilians that are able to elude professional trained military personnel?

It is just not the nature of things.

The way it is suposed to work is that the stronger defend the weaker against the predators.

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

How many civilians are out there doing things which would attract military attention so that they could elude them for fun?

Nobody?

Well then why would you think that would be fun in a game?

Truth's suggestion of making the Cat and Mouse game a game (rather than a one-sided predetermined bore-fest) would actually improve these types of games a lot.

FrostWyrm's comments are also smart.  PVP is players fighting players.  It's hard to pretend that the one-sided slaughters that happen in games like DF are truly PVP.  It makes for shallow gameplay, and the real PVPers strongly prefer the types of situations FrostWyrm describes, where it's a true stand-up fight where the skilled player wins.  DF definitely isn't like that and is more a test of how much you can outgrind and out-zerg your opposition (quite shallow.)

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by jusomdude

Last time I played Darkfall, just starting on the NA server, I was ganked or had gank attempts on me more than a handful of times in the newb areas in a matter of hours.

 

The game really isn't worth the hassle. Darkfall could increase their playerbase by many times if they just added some relatively safe areas to play. They don't even need %100 safe areas, just areas that are mostly safe, that actually also put the gankers at risk of losing something other than easily replaced gear.

 

Darkfall is a griefers paradise.

 

Having to watch your back every second is in no way, shape, or form, thrilling.

 

I can equate trying to start from scratch in the game to going into lvl 85 battlegrounds with green pve gear in wow. Except you're not rewarded nearly as much for playing.

 

 

Last time I played DFO I found the starter areas to be allmost completely devoid of other players. THey had all moved on because there wasn't anyone to gank anymore. I saw about 6 people in the ork capital cities in the month I bought. I ran the noob dungeons and surrounding areas almost completely uncontested. Only some random Alfar who had traveled to the Ork lands ever posed a threat.

This was very similar to my experience with DF.  Except in the first hour I played I only saw one other player.  There were barely any mobs either.  Darkfall felt like the devs created the landscape but forgot to put anything on it.

Where was all this ganking taking place?

Originally posted by dave6660

This was very similar to my experience with DF.  Except in the first hour I played I only saw one other player.  There were barely any mobs either.  Darkfall felt like the devs created the landscape but forgot to put anything on it.

Where was all this ganking taking place?

 

A few years ago, when the game started.  When there are actually people playing, before everyone left.

I just wanted to say that Anarchy does not equal Sandbox...

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Suraknar

Do you know of many farmers, artisans, merchants or present day Civilians that are able to elude professional trained military personnel?

It is just not the nature of things.

The way it is suposed to work is that the stronger defend the weaker against the predators.

So the response to the crafter being attacked by a ambushing coward is a Knight in shining armor comming to his/her defense.

How many civilians are out there doing things which would attract military attention so that they could elude them for fun?

Nobody?

Well then why would you think that would be fun in a game?

Truth's suggestion of making the Cat and Mouse game a game (rather than a one-sided predetermined bore-fest) would actually improve these types of games a lot.

FrostWyrm's comments are also smart.  PVP is players fighting players.  It's hard to pretend that the one-sided slaughters that happen in games like DF are truly PVP.  It makes for shallow gameplay, and the real PVPers strongly prefer the types of situations FrostWyrm describes, where it's a true stand-up fight where the skilled player wins.  DF definitely isn't like that and is more a test of how much you can outgrind and out-zerg your opposition (quite shallow.)

Actually there is plenty, in Africa and Asia....that are suffering...

Just becuase you do not see that in your negborhood it does not mean that it does not exist.

But the point was in relation to a game's interaction and environment. I am not saying Frostwyrm is not making some interesting idea here, all I am saying is that I see it from another angle.

Sadbox games are Worlds, inhabited by players, they should not be seen from the themepark eye, as single player focussed, Sandbox games appeal to the natural condition of people to be social beings.

Now, not all Sandbox games need to have FFA PvP and Full loot to be Sandbox, I agree to that.

Yet, in those that there are such mechanics it is intended for a certain interaction Dynamic to to take place and for a certain Atmosphere to be part of the experience.

in UO for instance, there was Full Loot, and you would have the Murderers (PK's) and you would have the Civilians (Crafters) and you would also have the Knights in Shining armor protecting the Weak and the innocent (Anti-PK's).

There was a relationship that established itself in a very natural manner.

Just like in our Medieval Histrory in RL, there was Marauding Murderous Groups, and there was communities of Farmers and Artisans who lived under the Protection of Men at Arms, Fighters, Knights etc...of course in our RL history there was some abuse too by the PRotectors towards the Farmers..but in a game this does not exist, players establish relationships and assume roles according to their free will. Some like to Fight some Like to Craft, Some like to Protect Others and some want to Murder and Steal from others.

It is a dynamic and atmosphere of a given world and environment that many do like to play in as it provides them with a more intense and real experience.

DF did not have this because DF was badly designed....but UO did.