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News & Features Discussion  » General: Credit Where Credit's Due

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Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/04
Posts: 7

2/24/12 1:35:25 PM#21

Hi, Isabelle.

Thanks for the great article! It is a well-needed breath of fresh air.

I agree with all your points, especially the indie-developers one. There are some fantastic gems out there. They are all labors of love that are created and maintained by people who really love and are invested in what they do. The larger a company/studio gets, the harder it is to maintain control. Indies are able to better express their focused vision than, say, a larger studio owned by a large game company. I can appreciate this. I am willing to give them some money and some of my time in order to experience their visions. A Tale in the Desert is a great example - narrowly focused yet incredibly complex. A very good experience if you are willing to give it some of your time.


Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 1488


2/24/12 1:44:13 PM#22

In my opinion what is less required in an RPG an more required in a text about an upcoming MMO (related to the hype-level):


edit: mmh, this sounds kinda stupid. What I was trying to say: Don´t give up diversity to support balance.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 68

2/24/12 2:11:59 PM#23

I personaly loved SWG's Usage XP. I got experience when people used my stuff. That is kind of cool but I doubt its something we will ever see again, at least on a large scale.

I agree in general with all of the props, but want to address those who feel WoW got slighted. WoW is evolutionary, whether we like the direction of the evolution, that is another story. Give them props for that, but they made a stable game capable of sustaining long term growth because it had a broad appeal. Its fast food and that is not a bad thing, but its not revolutionary and its not really breaking from the mold.  They made a better burger. They added some chicken nuggets. Good, but not "holy crow mind blowing".

SWTOR is generally the same way, they made some small evolutionary steps and only time if the larger ones forge a revolution or its an evolutionary dead end.

Just My 2 Lunars


Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/04
Posts: 83

2/24/12 2:24:54 PM#24

Originally posted by Ozmodan

The cowards who develop MMO's these days don't deserve any praise.



This... (Sorry for snipping, the other thoughts I cut had a point, too, but...)

In all these shiny, polished, well-advertised, new toys out there, there is nothing new. Noone daring a different approach (try recalling all screams as soon as someone says "permadeath" *snickers*). (Almost) Everything new looks nicely predigested, "let's try not to oversteer in the learning curve, crew". There's hardly anything out there (or mentioned in this article, sorry...) that's truely new, it was done before. Only, it didn't sell before.

Personally, I'm looking forward to two to three upcoming titles - I keep my innovational expectations low, though.


...activating morph from silent reader to active poster...



Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

2/24/12 2:32:06 PM#25
Originally posted by 77lolmac77
I still think Runescape gets lost in the whole MMO spectrum. I dont know about anyone else but that was the first MMO I played and it was very much like EVE with the Wilderness comparing to 0.0 space.

Obviously it doesnt compare well to newer titles but I think people overlook Runescape and point to WoW as the game that made MMOs popular when Id be willing to bet a lot o peoples first MMO was Runescape


Runescape is STILL one of my top five favorite MMOs.  I's underrated.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club



Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

2/24/12 2:41:49 PM#26
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

I REFUSE to give "props" to companies whom don't care about the story/world they're building, and are MORE interested in the bottom dollar. That is post EA-Consumed Blizzard & Post EA-Consumed Bioware. WoW cataclysm & beyond i'm told (since i don't play WoW) & SWTOR are only after money, and spit on their players on a daily basis.


Both EA-Controled Blizzard & Bioware continue to dilute the MMO market with more backwards thinking products that, again, are only "money grabs", and not ACTUAL advancement within the genre of MMOs. The Companion system is simply a more thought out version of STO's bridge officer system, and other games also did VERY similar systems but didn't flesh them out as far as EA-Bioware took them.

However, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself "Does this new Companion system from Bioware enhance, or detract, from the ACTUAL game as a whole? Is it only another rat-maze for me to burn my hours away without actually doing much for the game in the long run?". Their companion system deserves ZERO props, I am sorry to say :(.


With all of that being said, where "props" is due is when indie companies like MoJang (Minecraft) create games that are targeted at the PLAYERS and not their WALLETS. However, SOE has "vowed" to turn their path around from the "WoW-Cloning", and have "promised" to bring a new era in gaming again with EQ:Next & Planetside 2. Only time will tell with SOE though considering how badly they've butchered their own products for money only to hurt their reputation in the long run.

I'm told that after SOE was turned down for the 6th time for a new unique IP to bring into MMO form they decided a new path was required.



"Props" are due when it's worth giving out. SWTOR deserves none, but more games are on the horizon to show us whether or not the term "Where props are due..." will be used ever again for the good OR the bad.




All in all, good read, except EA doesn't own Blizzard, but rather Bioware.  So you got half of that right, I guess.


I don't think there's a remarkable amount of things in MMOs that deserve props, that's for sure.  And I certainly understand what you said about the companion system. Oy.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club


Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 659

"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain."

2/24/12 3:54:37 PM#27
Originally posted by methosx

Originally posted by MMOarQQ

These aren't charity workers or brave, life-saving heroes.

I pay my "props" in cash.

Let's not fool ourselves here. It's all about dollar signs.

Yes, because we don't pay doctors either... Obviously you don't understand what props means.



Props = respect and/or recognition

I don't see any reason to for the above among the listed games/developers.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

2/24/12 6:47:12 PM#28

Gotta give big ups to Pirates of the Burning Sea's combat system.  Yes, ganking was a little too prevalant due to the broken OS mechanics.  (Now they are so dumbed down as to be laughable.)  Yet a good quality 6 v 6 fight, or even better, 24 v 24 port battle, full of wind changes, ships blocking ships, perfectly timing skills, I've still yet to find more entertaining pvp.  POTBS earns a distinction for being the only video game I called off work to play.  Why?  Because we had 4 port battles that day, and the Spaniards really needed someone.  :)


I really wish one day we could see the economy SWG had (mainly pre-cu) in a future game.  I loved that it relied on people to get you the resources.  12 pt crafters really were gods amongst men at that time, especially the rare 12 pt doc or cm.  While I was one of those 12 pt cm's (one of only 4 on Eclipse at the time), I made almost all my money on resource gathering.  When 992 OQ radioactive gas spawned, I managed to get a good lead on a 98% concentration over a full field.  I made 50 million in that one week (with an admittedly steep initial investment of 3 million), and everything else after that was play money.

If you wanted to be a run of the mill crafter, you could, and it wasn't that hard.  If you wanted to be a rich man off of crafting, you could, though it wasn't that hard.  If you wanted to become a real economic overlord, you could do so, provided you put in a lot of hard work.  That 50 million I made in a week?  That was typically pocket change for Enkidu and his crafting stations, which every person on Eclipse used, and I mean EVERY.

EvE comes close, and has a great economic game in its own right, but SWG's original economic design was flat out inspired.  It worked, and when you go from that economy to WoW, you can't blame a man for refusing to touch the econ in that game.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 3

2/24/12 9:07:39 PM#29

I'm giving my props to DAoC for a PvP environment and a community that has never been matched in any other MMO I've ever played.

I also am giving out props to an indie company, PitchBlack Games, working hard on Dominus. They seem to be striving for that PvP environment that DAoC had, with 3 faction, objective based PVP. They have a great dev team over there, that actually listens to its community, and actually interacts with the great community they are building. For all you old Dark Age fans, this is one to keep your eyes on!

To Isabelle, Dominus is going to have real item decay, and the best items will always be player crafted. No end game gear grinding!


Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 1263

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

2/24/12 9:13:36 PM#30

Like iceman mentioned above, POTBS did have some great PvP (port battles, win or lose, were a blast) and at least they deserve props for trying something different. I still hold a special place in my heart for Shadowbane. Yes the game failed but god, building your own city, the open PvP and great politics. Those were the days!

A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...


Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 199

2/25/12 9:21:03 AM#31

As paying customers, who have to pay and pay and pay every month, after purchasing a 70 dollar product, I am entitled to complain about issues that are ruining my gaming experience, which I am forced to continue to pay for.  If you take my money, you get my complaints if I have any, and if they don't get resolved, or if there are too many of them, I stop paying you.  If I'm happy with the game and am too busy enjoying and playing it, then I won't have much time to sit around and tell you how much I like it.  My praise is the paycheck I give you.


On another note, I do not understand what the op means by RPG.  In my day RPG's meant that you were playing a make believe character in a make believe world where exciting and imaginative things happen.  I really don't see how twenty people standing around with twenty vettes helps in any way with RP, unless somehow there was a storyline that explained that there is a cloning factory that creats tons of the same types of companions.  You can't even control what they do, so basically they just stand there staring dumbly at nothing and are completely non-responsive to outside stimuli beyond the story videos you watch if you aren't in a full group.

Maybe I just don't understand modern RPGing anymore. ...But exactly how does having a companion that fights with you add to Massively Online  Role Playing?




Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 374

2/25/12 1:53:26 PM#32

Thanks for your article; I never played SWG and am sad because I heard great things about the player housing and RP community.

I have to give props to Midkemia Online for having the best mmo player housing and character customization.

Currently playing: Achaea


Advanced Member

Joined: 4/16/04
Posts: 1467

2/25/12 4:25:11 PM#33

Before handing out any praise, I have to make an admission.  I have been gaming since the days of the ATARI. I was a dungeons and dragons geek, I played games like Gemstone that were text based muds.  I spent countless hours playing DAOC.  I never jumped into UO with my friends because I was way to into the MUDS at the time.  I've beta tested everything from shadowbane and Vanilla WoW up to WAR.  When I say beta test, I mean test, not jump in and play for free then complain about it.

What does that all mean?  It means a few things.  First, I've pretty much been there done that.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I've had my share of wearing rose tinted glasses.


How is that relevant? I had to sit back for a minute and realize all of this so I could make a contribution to this thread that wasn't just complaining about the good old days and how bad games suck now.


So...disclaimer out of the way:  My props go to DAOC for the three faction combat and the way they implemented a pvp/pve world.  A little something for everyone.

I think the companion thing in SWTOR might not be a bad thing. I haven't played the game yet, but it could be a cool way to handle some of the mundane stuff, if done right.  I'd hate to see it become a replacement for real group members. If that happens, then I retract this statement.

I would agree with the article, and give a nod to Asherons call and their character development. Everything is too watered down these days. 

Love it or Hate it, WoW has done some pretty cool things with seasonal events, major quest cut scenes, etc. (I still hate them for a variety of other reasons...but that's a different post.)...oh, they are also pretty good at stealing any idea a new mmo puts out that might be a threat and promptly adding it to their game.

Shadowbane had some awesome classes and pretty cool sandbox and PVP ideas.  Too bad their budget didn't allow for a decent game engine or graphics. (hard to have massive battles when the screen locks up everytime you get 30-40 people fighting on the screen.)

Vanguard had some amazing graphics for its time. I played on the FFA PVP server, it was a lot of fun!  Too many bugs and unfinished parts though, and believe it or not, I think they made their world too big for the time.  It was a fun game though.


Guess that's it for now.



Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/06
Posts: 413

2/26/12 12:08:15 PM#34

I was one of those 12pt doctors on Eclipse.

SWG was my third full time MMO, and nothing has EVER compared to that game.

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 102

2/26/12 5:44:14 PM#35

Wow, talk about a bunch of bs off the top... We whine because games today suck and nothing more.. if you can't notice that at your age... then well... your part of the GAMERS problem

Nobotters - A better gaming experience


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/04
Posts: 827

Gamer Forums, where "First World Problems" are our specialty!

2/27/12 3:44:33 AM#36

I'd definitely vote Trion at the top of my personal list of developers that deserve credit where credit is due.

Sure, RIFT was released far too soon, and the content was short-sighted at best, but the amount of polish that went into the content-- and all of the free content updates-- is amazingly sound.

I no longer play RIFT, the game lacked the depth I was looking for, but I cannot deny that the impeccable level of quality that goes into the programming is impressive, considering the challenge that Trion took on to offer so many choices for skill trees and the amount of review that it demands in order to achieve some semblence of that elusive thing called "balance".



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Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

2/27/12 7:25:12 PM#37
Originally posted by xxpigxx

I was one of those 12pt doctors on Eclipse.

SWG was my third full time MMO, and nothing has EVER compared to that game.

I'll be honest...... a lot of my esteem for SWG is based on time.

If a game came out today, and was 100% like pre-cu SWG, I'd laugh it off the market.  But in 2004, the game was truly something to be experienced with a tight guild.  (The original SK > All on Eclipse)  It offered really unparalleled freedom, and to this day, nothing beats their player made cities and economy system.  The combat was really "meh" (let's be honest, pvp was dot wars and a mind fire weapon so absurdly OP, there was no challenge), but the social aspects, the econ stuff, all those things SWG did right, and did it better than anyone else.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

2/28/12 9:22:09 AM#38

I've always felt that LotRO's landscapes were more annoying than pretty. The land was nice and painted and all (though the graphics, based on AC2, are heavily outdated) but the hundreds of invisible walls that funnel you. The way no zone properly connects to the other. It's a terrible illusion that falls apart pretty quickly. It doesn't give the freedom I expected from Middle Earth.

On that, I also feel DAoC should be given more credit for their housing system. It always seemed to me like the best implementation of a housing system in MMOs. A good compromise between instanced housing and SWG urban crawl.


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Joined: 9/28/11
Posts: 469

2/28/12 9:26:18 AM#39
Originally posted by VikingGamer

isn't Blizzard owned by Activision?

I think it's Vivendi, but that one guy was on a roll thinking that EA owned them and I didn't want to stop him.



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