Originally posted by keithian

There are so many twisted people in these forums. If people are enjoying something, what kind of people want something to fail that takes away from the fun those people are having even if you don't like something? Whats the point of rooting for something to fail? Seems like a  lot of wasted energy to me.

Why try to insult others just because they have a different PoV to you?

The themepark sub genre is at a crossroads right now... if some folks want it to go the right way, and the only way for that to happen is if the money leads that way, they aren't 'twisted'.

SWTOR will still be there for the people that enjoy it, but others don't enjoy it and recognise that commercial performance dictates the industry, so they want it to not be as profitable as the model the DO enjoy.

@Kimmyboy

As we've discussed in another thread, i'm not 100% that having zones as opposed to a seamless world is as big a deal as you seem to think, but to each his own. I am sure that we don't know nearly enough to make a statement that Anet didn't make their world seamless simply because they were 'cutting corners'. As for the mounts, it has been explained in previous threads, you can teleport all over the map...which negates the necessity for mounts. In fact, the lack of mounts was a design decision by Anet, not a 'cutting corners' decision.

@OP

I agree with where you're coming from. I think alot of the posters in the thread kind of missed the point. The OP isn't advocating the bashing of games like SWTOR, he's simply pointing out that it failed to innovate and instead took the easier, softer way. This is the thing; Blizzard developed WoW and it was a breakthrough in its time, and thereafter we've had developer after developer try to copy that model. The problem is, noone has been better at making WoW than Bizzard. If a developer tries to make a game in the image of WoW, it is inevitable that it will be compared to WoW...and if it doesn't offer everything that WoW offers, it'll be criticized heavily by the gaming community. And, at the end of the day, why wouldn't it be? If a new game that copied the WoW model can't stand up against WoW, then why would a gamer who desires that model want to play anything but WoW? in other words, using the WoW model, SWTOR simply is not as good as WoW. That's the problem you get trying to develop a WoW clone...you have to defeat WoW. GW2 will not suffer from this. It brings enough innovation to the table and clearly establishes itself as a very different gaming experience than WoW, therefore it doesn't have to be a WoW killer. It can have success in its own right. And being B2P, people who enjoy BOTH games...can play both without regret.  

TL;DR

Since GW2 isn't trying to be WoW it doesn't have to be a WoW killer in order to be successful.

Anyone who wants SWTOR to fail needs to realize something.

Compeition makes all of us winners. If a game like Guild Wars 2 is competing four our attention and our dollars and games like TOR and WoW are also doing really well, it's just going to drive ArenaNet to make Guild Wars 2 even bigger and better. The best analogy because this is all I've got is professional wrestling.

The WWE was king for such a long time and nobody could touch it but then WCW Nitro came on and with the introduction of the nWo, people started to to shift to WCW to the point where their ratings were better than WWE's and then what happened? The WWE put on the best product they've ever put. We had two great shows doing their very best to out-do each other. When WWE crushed WCW for good and they went out of business, the WWE no longer had any competition and since then their content has been a little lackluster in my opinon because of the lack of compeition.

I think we should be cheering for World of Warcraft. We should be cheering for games like TOR, GW2 and Tera. Compeition makes products better. Period.

Originally posted by Kimmyboy

Originally posted by Jakard

Anyone who wants SWTOR to fail needs to realize something.

Compeition makes all of us winners. If a game like Guild Wars 2 is competing four our attention and our dollars and games like TOR and WoW are also doing really well, it's just going to drive ArenaNet to make Guild Wars 2 even bigger and better. The best analogy because this is all I've got is professional wrestling.

The WWE was king for such a long time and nobody could touch it but then WCW Nitro came on and with the introduction of the nWo, people started to to shift to WCW to the point where their ratings were better than WWE's and then what happened? The WWE put on the best product they've ever put. We had two great shows doing their very best to out-do each other. When WWE crushed WCW for good and they went out of business, the WWE no longer had any competition and since then their content has been a little lackluster in my opinon because of the lack of compeition.

I think we should be cheering for World of Warcraft. We should be cheering for games like TOR, GW2 and Tera. Compeition makes products better. Period.

Or ... competition could actually harm things too.

In MMORPG's the competition has entered a Nash equilibrium.  If each player has chosen a strategy and no player can benefit by changing his or her strategy while the other players keep theirs unchanged, then the current set of strategy choices and the corresponding payoffs constitute a Nash equilibrium.

In plain words: competition does not make products automatically better for the consumer.

I think innovation is critical to that equation.

Originally posted by Kimmyboy

Originally posted by Jakard

Anyone who wants SWTOR to fail needs to realize something.

Compeition makes all of us winners. If a game like Guild Wars 2 is competing four our attention and our dollars and games like TOR and WoW are also doing really well, it's just going to drive ArenaNet to make Guild Wars 2 even bigger and better. The best analogy because this is all I've got is professional wrestling.

The WWE was king for such a long time and nobody could touch it but then WCW Nitro came on and with the introduction of the nWo, people started to to shift to WCW to the point where their ratings were better than WWE's and then what happened? The WWE put on the best product they've ever put. We had two great shows doing their very best to out-do each other. When WWE crushed WCW for good and they went out of business, the WWE no longer had any competition and since then their content has been a little lackluster in my opinon because of the lack of compeition.

I think we should be cheering for World of Warcraft. We should be cheering for games like TOR, GW2 and Tera. Compeition makes products better. Period.

Or ... competition could actually harm things too.

In MMORPG's the competition has entered a Nash equilibrium.  If each player has chosen a strategy and no player can benefit by changing his or her strategy while the other players keep theirs unchanged, then the current set of strategy choices and the corresponding payoffs constitute a Nash equilibrium.

In plain words: competition does not make products automatically better for the consumer.

Fair enough :) I would just personally like to see a healthy MMO market where there is more than one or two realy good MMOs and I don't want  TOR to be a failure because we deserve a decent Star Wars game, dang it.

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Skyrim a game that sold over 12 million copies. Became fastest selling PC game. And why ?

Because its first quality sandbox RPG

Wait... what?

Skyrim isn't a sandbox game. It's a massive themepark in the sense that content is given to the player; regardless in how much there is and what they can do with it.

If Skyrim is a sandbox then technically GW2 would be too, even more so since while Skyrim has mainly quests (although non-linear), GW2's DEs are as sandbox-y as developer content gets. Yet neither of them are anyway.

A sandbox is where players create the content and then drive it. Skyrim just has lots of developer-made attraction sites. Whether you wanted to join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood is entirely driven by developer content rather than player.

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I said it all along SWTOR must die so that MMORPGs would live.

It represents everything that is wrong with post WOW MMO industry , and only if it crashes and burns the message will be loud enough (for investors) that gamers can not be taken for fools anymore.

 

On other hand GW2 is not MMO saviour. Far from that.

Its not even the perfect direction MMOs should take off. Its a big gamechanger though.

As a MMO that dares to challenge everything WOW does - from subscription , to gameplay.

Its sucess will send all the right signals to investors.

 

But if you ask me what is the real perfect storm ?

I would say Skyrim and Minecraft.

 

Skyrim a game that sold over 12 million copies. Became fastest selling PC game. And why ?

Because its first quality sandbox RPG

And Minecraft that sold just as much , and being just pure sandbox creativity tool.

 

I think this will pave the way for revolution in gaming and MMOs

 

And I think that real MMO revolution and perfect storm will be Archeage

( And still everyone and their dog will play GW2 - thats the smart trick from Anet)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see you are exaggerating as usual. You are the same guy who claimed Swtor made EA lose billion over billion right? by the way Skyrim hasn't sold 12 million copies yet and the reason for its huge sales is that it was released on consoles too. And consoles takes majority of cake when it comes to video game sales.

And even if i believe you then Archage should sell 4 to 5 million copies easily..on PC alone. I would love to see you stand by your ridiculous claims for once.

Originally posted by DLuna

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Skyrim a game that sold over 12 million copies. Became fastest selling PC game. And why ?

Because its first quality sandbox RPG

Wait... what?

Skyrim isn't a sandbox game. It's a massive themepark in the sense that content is given to the player; regardless in how much there is and what they can do with it.

If Skyrim is a sandbox then technically GW2 would be too, even more so since while Skyrim has mainly quests (although non-linear), GW2's DEs are as sandbox-y as developer content gets. Yet neither of them are anyway.

A sandbox is where players create the content and then drive it. Skyrim just has lots of developer-made attraction sites. Whether you wanted to join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood is entirely driven by developer content rather than player.

The difference you fail to see is that, while you're peppered with quests and here is an obvious main quest line, you don't have to follow it at all. In fact months after playing the game, I haven't progressed in the main quest almost at all while having a character in the upper 60s. Try doing that with a Bioware game and you will realise the difference. Sure, Skyrim is not Mount and Blade, but it's not DragonAge Origins either.

Originally posted by Nikkita

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

GW1 was a niche game with not much mainstream appeal (wasn't a true MMO). It was and is very popular; but there is a difference between popular and mainstream. GW2 on the other hand has the potential to become extremely mainstream while still retaining uniqueness, so it's very possible other developers will follow on. That's the difference between the two games.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by DLuna

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Skyrim a game that sold over 12 million copies. Became fastest selling PC game. And why ?

Because its first quality sandbox RPG

Wait... what?

Skyrim isn't a sandbox game. It's a massive themepark in the sense that content is given to the player; regardless in how much there is and what they can do with it.

If Skyrim is a sandbox then technically GW2 would be too, even more so since while Skyrim has mainly quests (although non-linear), GW2's DEs are as sandbox-y as developer content gets. Yet neither of them are anyway.

A sandbox is where players create the content and then drive it. Skyrim just has lots of developer-made attraction sites. Whether you wanted to join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood is entirely driven by developer content rather than player.

The difference you fail to see is that, while you're peppered with quests and here is an obvious main quest line, you don't have to follow it at all. In fact months after playing the game, I haven't progressed in the main quest almost at all while having a character in the upper 60s. Try doing that with a Bioware game and you will realise the difference. Sure, Skyrim is not Mount and Blade, but it's not DragonAge Origins either.

Why every game has to be like other? aren't we talkign about diversity here and yet people complain how every other RPG isn't Skyrim. Bioware's main strength is storytelling and strong character narration. Bethesda is known more for open world settings. Both studios have their own strengths. What ever happened to diversity? i don't want all RPG's to be like Skyrim and i also don't want all RPG's to be like DA or ME.

Originally posted by DLuna

Originally posted by Nikkita

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

GW1 was a niche game with not much mainstream appeal (wasn't a true MMO). It was and is very popular; but there is a difference between popular and mainstream. GW2 on the other hand has the potential to become extremely mainstream while still retaining uniqueness, so it's very possible other developers will follow on. That's the difference between the two games.

If you look at the total sales of GW i really don't believe that GW wasn't mainstream.  Fallen Earth isn't main stream. Darkfall and Mortal Online isn't mainstream. GW on the other hand sold 6.5 million units... it is pretty mainstream.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by DLuna

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Skyrim a game that sold over 12 million copies. Became fastest selling PC game. And why ?

Because its first quality sandbox RPG

Wait... what?

Skyrim isn't a sandbox game. It's a massive themepark in the sense that content is given to the player; regardless in how much there is and what they can do with it.

If Skyrim is a sandbox then technically GW2 would be too, even more so since while Skyrim has mainly quests (although non-linear), GW2's DEs are as sandbox-y as developer content gets. Yet neither of them are anyway.

A sandbox is where players create the content and then drive it. Skyrim just has lots of developer-made attraction sites. Whether you wanted to join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood is entirely driven by developer content rather than player.

The difference you fail to see is that, while you're peppered with quests and here is an obvious main quest line, you don't have to follow it at all. In fact months after playing the game, I haven't progressed in the main quest almost at all while having a character in the upper 60s. Try doing that with a Bioware game and you will realise the difference. Sure, Skyrim is not Mount and Blade, but it's not DragonAge Origins either.

But that doesn't mean Skyrim is a sandbox by definition.

I'm not arguing whether Skyrim is relevant in how the industry moves forward, but why it is labeled a sandbox. Like I said, GW2 is the exact same; you could go out and do non-linear DEs while completely ignoring your main personal story. But GW2 certainly isn't a sandbox either.

What I'm trying to say is that while the distinction between Themepark and Sandbox MMOs are commonly known, for single player RPGs the definitions are skewed for some reason.

Originally posted by Nikkita

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

GW2 is vastly different from GW1...either your logic is off, OR you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Nikkita

Originally posted by DLuna

Originally posted by Nikkita

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

What's more likely to happen in the event of a huge GW2 hit is that all the execs start ordering their studios to clone GW2 instead of WoW... Innovation and risk taking isn't part of these people's vocabulary.

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

GW1 was a niche game with not much mainstream appeal (wasn't a true MMO). It was and is very popular; but there is a difference between popular and mainstream. GW2 on the other hand has the potential to become extremely mainstream while still retaining uniqueness, so it's very possible other developers will follow on. That's the difference between the two games.

If you look at the total sales of GW i really don't believe that GW wasn't mainstream.  Fallen Earth isn't main stream. Darkfall and Mortal Online isn't mainstream. GW on the other hand sold 6.5 million units... it is pretty mainstream.

not necessarily, as those units that GW1 sold, you have to take into account over the time period the units were sold, and whether they were expacs or not, of which gw1 had more than a few,  thats not to say that gw1 wasnt good at what it did, but it was pretty much a niche game.

Originally posted by crewthief

If this was true we would see a lot more clones of GW..it was a pretty successful more than any MMOS released after it. Unless GW2  beats WOW to pulp i don't see anyone making GW2 clones.

GW2 is vastly different from GW1...either your logic is off, OR you don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for telling me the obvious even though that is not what we are talkign about here. Discussion is mostly about B2P, model and popularity of GW. 

Not anythign remotely negative being said about GW equals to attack on your beloved GW2. Take it easy.

Originally posted by SuperGuppy

The MMO gaming industry has been abysmal the past decade. I am not a WOW fan but Blizzard did do something right and something very very wrong. They created a formula that had every software house thinking they could reproduce Blizzards financial bottom line. What came was a myriad of cookie cutter MMO's that at best are supporting a handful of there original player base. Who is to blame for these games? The executives are the driving forces behind these sub par games. The ones who finance it but doubtfully ever even play them. Its all about the bottom line.

The latest WOW clone to be released is SWTOR. I wouldn't call it a failure, it's too soon for that. But i wouldn't call it a success either. They spent 200 million dollars for a game that allot of gamers don't find very much value in. With GW2 right around the corner and the praise it is receiving for its refreshingly different game play, it seems to make Star Wars even more of a target to the disillusioned masses. Good i say! I sincerely hope that SWTOR goes down in flames and I also hope Arena net delivers in the face of so much hype. Then maybe. Just maybe, the gaming execs will finally wake up and the new industry buzzwords will be "innovation" and "fun". Not WOW.

Somewhere along the way our dreams of what future games would be, became derailed and stuck in the mud. I hope these two games releasing within months of each other (fingers crossed) do become a perfect storm and force the future of gaming back on track.

Thoughts?

So five years from now when everyone is crying about all the GW2 clones, what then?

Originally posted by Phry

not necessarily, as those units that GW1 sold, you have to take into account over the time period the units were sold, and whether they were expacs or not, of which gw1 had more than a few,  thats not to say that gw1 wasnt good at what it did, but it was pretty much a niche game.

In the end it is always about how much the game sold isn't it? Even WOW didn't get 10 million subs in first few months. It grew slowly over the period of 4 to 5 years to get that many players. Since when a  game that sold close to 7 million copies considered a niche?