Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

Originally posted by BadSpock

I would disagree.

There are a lot of bad design decisions made that make no sense and are not good for a game.

And those bad designs suddenly make sense with GW2? sorry but it is not that simple.

All systems in a MMORPG are related. You can't just pluck feature X from game Y and put it into game Z.

All systems and features must work well in concert with each other to be "designed well."

You are still being very vague and offered no real explanation. Why is bad for other themepark MMOS to be released for consoles but it is ok for GW2, why is it bad for other themepark MMOS to have loading screens but it is ok for GW2.

I personally do not care for these issues but it does makes you pause and think for a while to see such double standards.

Originally posted by smh_alot

? The definition of what makes an MMO a sandbox sure has changed, if that's what's considered a sandbox nowadays. There have been quite a number of non-sandbox MMO's starting from EQ where this was very much possible, picking a direction and wandering out to do fun stuff

Afaik the difference between sandbox and themepark MMO's, or game driven and virtual world focused design as the debate went on before WoW, was that with sandbox MMO's the emphasis is on providing players the tools and flexible mechanics to make their stamp on the ingame world and create an emerging interactive community. Less focus on dev created content, and more on player/community interaction via tools provided, which if you look at UO, SWG and EVE Online is what was noticeable in player created houses and cities, persistent world territory control and a deep, multi layered and complex economy system.
I don't see that in GW2 at all, not like Arche Age has which I consider a true themepark/sandbox hybrid. What I do see is typical themepark style features, but then taken to the next level, which is a good thing too.

Not trying to ever say it's a pure sandbox. I think I made it very clear it's missing one of my favorite features - good housing.

But I do think it's as much of a sandbox as someting like Skyrim, which is obviously not a MMORPG though.

So maybe GW2 is a themepark with some sandbox feeling features?

I like Themebox for that reason. Not quite a hybrid and thus a sandpark, but not just a themepark either.

Originally posted by fiontar

Great aritcle. Glad to see that people are starting to get what this game is going to do to the MMORPG genre.

We don't know what percentage of MMO fans will adapt to and embrace the new design paradigm and what percent will cling to the pre-GW2 status quo of WoW-like MMORPG game design, but even if it were to split the community down the middle, it wouldn't make the game any less revolutionary. (It would probably just give developers an excuse to keep making WoW-clones).

In any event, the game design and the quality of game that get's paired with the Buy to Play business model will definitely shake up the genre.

I'm hoping that in addition to the inevitable attempts to clone GW2, GW2 will also inspire some talented and creative development teams to do their own innovative redesigns of the MMORPG formula and that publishers will fund more innovative projects, rather than just attempting to clone WoW, or any other game.

I've read a few of your posts and I've got a big critisism - you write a load of hot air. There is no detail to your posts at all.

Your posts are so bad that you could copy and paste all your posts to any forum - all you need to do is substitute the name of one game for another.

The reason some people like your posts is because they are like "fortune telling" - you write using 'truisms' without fastening them to details.

You use 'hanging comparisons'. For example, "This game is better." Well, compared to what? Banging your head against a brick wall?

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Originally posted by BadSpock

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Originally posted by raistlinm

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Originally posted by BadSpock

From what I gather - GW2 feels a lot like a Skyrim kind of sandbox.. sure, there are quests and some guidance and a main plot line, but you can also just pick a direction and wander out and find all kinds of fun stuff to do, that is actually worth while.
Exploration + content.

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Your description describes most mmorpg's I've played the only difference would be in ones perception of "fun".  One might not think it fun to ignore the "tunnels" in games like WOW,TOR,STO,LOTRO and the like but it's possible to do and to be honest I've often thought of alot of the supposed sandboxes that way, no they don't give you things like quests and the like as a reason to go out and explore and I've never found that to make the game fun at all.

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You are right, in the sense that you don't really get quests that tell you to go places in GW2 (except for a few of the ones that the Scouts will tell you about) so in reality it is more like all the quests are out in the world and don't require you to run back to town afterwards.
So is it sandbox? Really depends on how you define sandbox. It's much more themepark then say EvE, but it's far more sandbox then say TOR.
I like to call it a Themebox.
Heavier on the themepark side, but with a more sandbox feel to it.

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Sandbox elements are hard to find in GW2 but it certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it, it's a massive difference unto itself from what we've had from releases over the past four or five years. Those rails seem to have got tighter as the genre moved on (on not forward). As an explorer I'm really hyped by this new freedom, I won't have to go from quest giver to quest giver, from hub to hub, instead the world is my oyster, far closer to a virtual world feel than we've seen for a long time.

What really struck me from playing the demo was the fluidity of play or how organic it felt, sentiments echoed by a lot of the reviews we've had since the press beta. Tyria feels like a living breathing world because of this, the game became less and the world became more (if you get what I mean) and I was believing the world, my place in it and having crap loads of fun. Fun and accessible being the other words that hit strongly for me.

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

Originally posted by BadSpock

All systems in a MMORPG are related. You can't just pluck feature X from game Y and put it into game Z.

All systems and features must work well in concert with each other to be "designed well."

You are still being very vague and offered no real explanation. Why is bad for other themepark MMOS to be released for consoles but it is ok for GW2, why is it bad for other themepark MMOS to have loading screens but it is ok for GW2.

I personally do not care for these issues but it does makes you pause and think for a while to see such double standards.

I don't think there is anything bad with console gaming, and in truth I love the idea (far from confirmed) of a console version of GW2. I don't share that whole "elitist PC gamer" attitude.

As for loading screens, they are often a neccessary evil. Would I prefer to not have them? Of course. But I also like to have nice graphics and smooth game play.

If the engine can't give me all 3, I'll gladly sacrifice loading screens for better graphics with more players and smoother game play.

As with all things, it's a matter of degree - TOR goes too far in feeling like a very small closed off world, as GW1.

Is it possible to have smooth game play with great graphics and a lot of players and no loading screens between zones?

I don't know - supposedly Tera does pretty good at that.

Archeage looks to be looking good in that department too, but Tera looks to have basic quest-hub game play (despite action combat system) and Archeage also looks to have dated tab-target hot key combat and quest-hub level grinding - in addition to all the sandbox elements.

Originally posted by EvilGeek

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Sandbox elements are hard to find in GW2 but it certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it, it's a massive difference unto itself from what we've had from releases over the past four or five years. Those rails seem to have got tighter as the genre moved on (on not forward). As an explorer I'm really hyped by this new freedom, I won't have to go from quest giver to quest giver, from hub to hub, instead the world is my oyster, far closer to a virtual world feel than we've seen for a long time.

What really struck me from playing the demo was the fluidity of play or how organic it felt, sentiments echoed by a lot of the reviews we've had since the press beta. Tyria feels like a living breathing world because of this, the game became less and the world became more (if you get what I mean) and I was believing the world, my place in it and having crap loads of fun. Fun and accessible being the other words that hit strongly for me.

I like it.

Especially this line - "certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it"

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by smh_alot
Ok, I get the excitement of the article writer, but I don't get the sandbox comparison. In what way does GW2 use sandbox specific elements?? Now Arche Age, THAT I can understand that people describe it as a themepark/sandbox hybrid, with sandbox features like building your own houses, towns, keeps and ships and such. But GW2, nope, not really: best description imo would be themepark 2.0 or next-gen themepark. But still very solidly in the themepark or dev content driven branch of things.

From what I gather - GW2 feels a lot like a Skyrim kind of sandbox.. sure, there are quests and some guidance and a main plot line, but you can also just pick a direction and wander out and find all kinds of fun stuff to do, that is actually worth while.

Exploration + content.

 

 

? The definition of what makes an MMO a sandbox sure has changed, if that's what's considered a sandbox nowadays. There have been quite a number of non-sandbox MMO's starting from EQ where this was very much possible, picking a direction and wandering out to do fun stuff.

 

Afaik the difference between sandbox and themepark MMO's, or game driven and virtual world focused design as the debate went on before WoW, was that with sandbox MMO's the emphasis is on providing players the tools and flexible mechanics to make their stamp on the ingame world and create an emerging interactive community. Less focus on dev created content, and more on player/community interaction via tools provided, which if you look at UO, SWG and EVE Online is what was noticeable in player created houses and cities, persistent world territory control and a deep, multi layered and complex economy system.

 

I don't see that in GW2 at all, not like Arche Age has which I consider a true themepark/sandbox hybrid. What I do see is typical themepark style features, but then taken to the next level, which is a good thing too.

It is upsetting when somone is using the word "Sandbox" and doesn't even know the definition (within contex), or even understand the term (within actual use, in game).

The definition of "Sandbox" has not changed, only the technology allowing it's use, has changed. It is now alot easier to build Sandbox games, BECAUSE building an Open World is much, much, easier now given the technology of the day.

Sandbox games are predicated on the fact they have 360 degree content.

Everquest back in March 16th 1999 was/is considered a Sandbox game. There was no funneling of content, mulitple ways to leave a city and multi paths & direction to head out in...  given the technology @ the time. Zone walls were used, but the zones were all outward content.

When a game is predicated on inferior server technology...  and the business decision to funnel content and "theme" using zones/instances due to server cost... THEN, that game becomes themepark, becausde now the developers (limited by their choice/cost of server structure) have to develop eye catching rifts/public quests, etc..  so that you as a inhabitant of their world MUST spend time looking at what the Developers specifically deveoped for you, instead of heading off in THAT direction & exploring.

Just because a Sandbox has side shows, that some people like, or enjoy doesn't make it a "themepark". Anything can have "themepark" like qualities..  only sandboxes have sandbox qualities about them.

ALL ABOARD!

THE HYPE TRAIN!

I think a lot of things about this game sound really cool and I am looking forward to playing it. That being said, I don't think GW2 will be the 'messiah' of MMOs and I will be very surprised if the same people aren't on the forums whining about the game after release. I honestly don't think any game will meet the unrealistic expectations of this community.

Also... the more you all hype it, the more you set yourselves up for disappointment. This always happens!

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by EvilGeek

Sandbox elements are hard to find in GW2 but it certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it, it's a massive difference unto itself from what we've had from releases over the past four or five years. Those rails seem to have got tighter as the genre moved on (on not forward). As an explorer I'm really hyped by this new freedom, I won't have to go from quest giver to quest giver, from hub to hub, instead the world is my oyster, far closer to a virtual world feel than we've seen for a long time.

What really struck me from playing the demo was the fluidity of play or how organic it felt, sentiments echoed by a lot of the reviews we've had since the press beta. Tyria feels like a living breathing world because of this, the game became less and the world became more (if you get what I mean) and I was believing the world, my place in it and having crap loads of fun. Fun and accessible being the other words that hit strongly for me.

I like it. Especially this line - "certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it"

That's my take on it aswell. No other Themepark MMORPG gives players as much freedom as Guild Wars 2. From all the the press beta footage I've seen, they all seem to do something different right after the tutorial...

 - Some go straight for the personal story.

 - Some just roam around doing tasks & events.

 - Some explore the gorgeous vistas and stumble of across hidden areas.

 - Some head straight for the Competitive PvP.

 - And some level their character a bit, before heading to WvW.

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by EvilGeek

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Sandbox elements are hard to find in GW2 but it certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it, it's a massive difference unto itself from what we've had from releases over the past four or five years. Those rails seem to have got tighter as the genre moved on (on not forward). As an explorer I'm really hyped by this new freedom, I won't have to go from quest giver to quest giver, from hub to hub, instead the world is my oyster, far closer to a virtual world feel than we've seen for a long time.

What really struck me from playing the demo was the fluidity of play or how organic it felt, sentiments echoed by a lot of the reviews we've had since the press beta. Tyria feels like a living breathing world because of this, the game became less and the world became more (if you get what I mean) and I was believing the world, my place in it and having crap loads of fun. Fun and accessible being the other words that hit strongly for me.

I like it.

Especially this line - "certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it"

That's my take on it aswell. No other Themepark MMORPG gives players as much freedom as Guild Wars 2. From all the the press beta footage I've seen, they all seem to do something different right after the tutorial...

• 
  Some go straight for the personal story.


• 
  Some just roam around doing tasks & events.


• 
  Some explore the gorgeous vistas and stumble of across hidden areas.


• 
  Some head straight for the Competitive PvP.


• 
  And some level their character a bit, before heading to WvW.

No other Themepark MMORPG will allow you to do that many things right out the gate and that's what makes the game so amazing IMO.

In other themepark MMOS too once out of tutorial area players can go in any direction they like and start questing, exploring, PVP, crafting or whatever else they enjoy. Tera being the latest example i am sure others can come up with more examples.

To say NO other themepark MMOS offer so much freedom is a very false claim to make.

Gw2 is imo a hybrid themepark sandbox mmo. You go around and you can never tell for sure what awaits you because of the dynamic world. For those who like themepark and handholding they will find their place in personal story.

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Originally posted by Nikkita

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Originally posted by Master10K
No other Themepark MMORPG will allow you to do that many things right out the gate and that's what makes the game so amazing IMO.

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In other themepark MMOS too once out of tutorial area players can go in any direction they like and start questing, exploring, PVP, crafting or whatever else they enjoy. Tera being the latest example i am sure others can come up with more examples.
To say NO other themepark MMOS offer so much freedom is a very false claim to make.

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And how is the reward from doing that? In nearly every themepark quests are the best source of xp, gear and also the prime source of lore, in order to get at those goodies and level up most effectively you need to get on board the questing train. Getting off that train means grinding content, no lore, no quest rewards, no context. Events in GW2 provide all of that without keeping you on rails, that's what's unique.

Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

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Originally posted by Nikkita

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Originally posted by Master10K

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Originally posted by BadSpock

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Originally posted by EvilGeek

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Sandbox elements are hard to find in GW2 but it certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it, it's a massive difference unto itself from what we've had from releases over the past four or five years. Those rails seem to have got tighter as the genre moved on (on not forward). As an explorer I'm really hyped by this new freedom, I won't have to go from quest giver to quest giver, from hub to hub, instead the world is my oyster, far closer to a virtual world feel than we've seen for a long time.

What really struck me from playing the demo was the fluidity of play or how organic it felt, sentiments echoed by a lot of the reviews we've had since the press beta. Tyria feels like a living breathing world because of this, the game became less and the world became more (if you get what I mean) and I was believing the world, my place in it and having crap loads of fun. Fun and accessible being the other words that hit strongly for me.

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I like it.

Especially this line - "certainly gives back that notion of freedom in a theme park setting, it's a theme park without rails is my take on it"

---

That's my take on it aswell. No other Themepark MMORPG gives players as much freedom as Guild Wars 2. From all the the press beta footage I've seen, they all seem to do something different right after the tutorial...

• Some go straight for the personal story.
• Some just roam around doing tasks & events.
• Some explore the gorgeous vistas and stumble of across hidden areas. Some head straight for the Competitive PvP. And some level their character a bit, before heading to WvW.

No other Themepark MMORPG will allow you to do that many things right out the gate and that's what makes the game so amazing IMO.

---

In other themepark MMOS too once out of tutorial area players can go in any direction they like and start questing, exploring, PVP, crafting or whatever else they enjoy. Tera being the latest example i am sure others can come up with more examples.
To say NO other themepark MMOS offer so much freedom is a very false claim to make.

---

 

And how is the reward from doing that? In nearly every themepark quests are the best source of xp, gear and also the prime source of lore, in order to get at those goodies and level up most effectively you need to get on board the questing train. Getting off that train means grinding content, no lore, no quest rewards. Events in GW2 provide all of that without keeping you on rails, that's what's unique.

Sorry but you are goign completely off topic. We are talking about features as a whole and not just questing. Only because GW2 does away with questing doesn't mean no other MMO offers the same amount of freedom to players. Apart from questing other themepark too offer exploration, pvp, personal stories, leveling, craftin etc.

The guy i replied to make it sound as if only GW2 offers all these features.

You have innovators and those who posture as innovators.Arenanet is a true innovator.

Guild Wars 2 a new breed?

Quite.

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by smh_alot
Ok, I get the excitement of the article writer, but I don't get the sandbox comparison. In what way does GW2 use sandbox specific elements?? Now Arche Age, THAT I can understand that people describe it as a themepark/sandbox hybrid, with sandbox features like building your own houses, towns, keeps and ships and such. But GW2, nope, not really: best description imo would be themepark 2.0 or next-gen themepark. But still very solidly in the themepark or dev content driven branch of things.

From what I gather - GW2 feels a lot like a Skyrim kind of sandbox.. sure, there are quests and some guidance and a main plot line, but you can also just pick a direction and wander out and find all kinds of fun stuff to do, that is actually worth while.

Exploration + content.

 

 

? The definition of what makes an MMO a sandbox sure has changed, if that's what's considered a sandbox nowadays. There have been quite a number of non-sandbox MMO's starting from EQ where this was very much possible, picking a direction and wandering out to do fun stuff.

 

Afaik the difference between sandbox and themepark MMO's, or game driven and virtual world focused design as the debate went on before WoW, was that with sandbox MMO's the emphasis is on providing players the tools and flexible mechanics to make their stamp on the ingame world and create an emerging interactive community. Less focus on dev created content, and more on player/community interaction via tools provided, which if you look at UO, SWG and EVE Online is what was noticeable in player created houses and cities, persistent world territory control and a deep, multi layered and complex economy system.

 

I don't see that in GW2 at all, not like Arche Age has which I consider a true themepark/sandbox hybrid. What I do see is typical themepark style features, but then taken to the next level, which is a good thing too.

 

It is upsetting when somone is using the word "Sandbox" and doesn't even know the definition (within contex), or even understand the term (within actual use, in game).

The definition of "Sandbox" has not changed, only the technology allowing it's use, has changed. It is now alot easier to build Sandbox games, BECAUSE building an Open World is much, much, easier now given the technology of the day.

 

Sandbox games are predicated on the fact they have 360 degree content.

Everquest back in March 16th 1999 was/is considered a Sandbox game. There was no funneling of content, mulitple ways to leave a city and multi paths & direction to head out in...  given the technology @ the time. Zone walls were used, but the zones were all outward content.

When a game is predicated on inferior server technology...  and the business decision to funnel content and "theme" using zones/instances due to server cost... THEN, that game becomes themepark, becausde now the developers (limited by their choice/cost of server structure) have to develop eye catching rifts/public quests, etc..  so that you as a inhabitant of their world MUST spend time looking at what the Developers specifically deveoped for you, instead of heading off in THAT direction & exploring.

Just because a Sandbox has side shows, that some people like, or enjoy doesn't make it a "themepark". Anything can have "themepark" like qualities..  only sandboxes have sandbox qualities about them.

Originally posted by Nikkita

*snip*

Sorry but you are goign completely off topic. We are talking about features as a whole and not just questing. Only because GW2 does away with questing doesn't mean no other MMO offers the same amount of freedom to players. Apart from questing other themepark too offer exploration, pvp, personal stories, leveling, craftin etc.

The guy i replied to make it sound as if only GW2 offers all these features.

I am talking about a single Themepark MMORPG allowing players to do all of that, right out the gate and having it all be worthwhile. You bring up TERA, which honestly has one of the most horrid newbie zones, from about levels 1-10, that anything after that would feel like a breath of fresh air. TERA doesn't seem to offer much in the realm of open world or large scale PvP for someone who just hit level 10. Mostly just dueling at that point. Also how are the battlegrounds in TERA, cause I never got to try it in the beta. Can you try them from level 10? Are they bracketed like in Rift?

Eitherway, no other MMORPG allows you to do both competitve instanced PvP from level 2 and also take part in large scale meaningful warfare, whilst making a difference and progressing your character.