Trending Games | Elder Scrolls Online | World of Warcraft | Marvel Heroes | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,902,144 Users Online:0
Games:753  Posts:6,275,309
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » General: FFA PVP and the Sandbox MMO

9 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
170 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13794

 
OP  2/21/12 6:30:49 AM#1

There is this notion among players that free-for-all PvP is a necessary and, indeed critical, component of the mythical "sandbox" game. In today's Devil's Advocate, we take a look at that notion and analyze whether or not that's a fair expectation. Check it out!

The question is: does it always have to remain this way for the future of the sandbox MMORPG? Let's look at some of the constructive criticisms leveled towards the FFA PVP sandbox and see if something can be done to disconnect the notion of the two requiring each other in future games.

Read more Victor Barreiro Jr.'s The Devil's Advocate: FFA PVP and the Sandbox MMO.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

2/22/12 7:50:27 AM#2

I remember being so excited for the development of Darkfall online then all of a sudden I kept hearing this phrase from some other fans "FFA PVP" at the time I wasn't sure what people were talking about. After a few weeks of back and forth about what should be in and what shouldn't I learned from the attitude of fans of the idea what it meant and that was all I needed to learn that regardless of all the other cool things that seemed to be a part of the games plan this was going to be something that kept me away from playing the game.

From there the conversation was never again about anything remotely sandbox it was strictly about FFA PVP and it's hard to blame the devs for taking up those peoples cause because they were such the vocal group of people.

Let me end by saying this those who advocate and fight for FFA PVP are rarey if ever the people who praise other features of sandbox gameplay.  My experience is those who want FFA PVP don't care about anything other than FFA PVP they don['t care aboout community involvment (unless we are talking about guilld runs of ganking/war) they don't care about crafting,building, or community relations for that matter.

To me FFA PVP is a feature unto itself that has little to nothing to do with actual sandbox gameplay.

  logan400k

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 68

2/22/12 8:01:31 AM#3

Great little article, I enjoyed reading it.


I think there are very simple ways to improve the full loot PvP that makes it fun for both sides. One solution I have always preferred is a token for defeating a foe. The token would be of a certainl level based on the game skill (not person skill) and gear score of the defeated player. Trading these tokens in for gear or PvP bonuses still gives good and experienced players a bonus without neutering the new characters.  There could also be a penalty associated with fragging a significantly lower power player, but I am not in as much favor of this. It would be simpler and more fair simply not to reward people for killing the new or low powered players.


There are definitely not enough sandbox games and I think there would be more if companies could find investors who grokked the idea of 100000 player base being successful instead of need 1 million.


Just My 2 Lunars

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6748

2/22/12 8:08:57 AM#4

When you consider that one of the best sandbox games ever, SWG pre NGE, did not have ffa full loot pvp, that pretty much proves your theory.  IMO UO became a much better game with the addition of trammel.  Those that did not want the pvp aspect could avoid or lessen their exposure to it.  Even in Eve you can somewhat avoid the pvp aspect of the game if you so desire.

That is what has basically doomed the current crop of full loot ffa pvp games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and killed Shadowbane.  Populations are small because most people don't want to constantly deal with some of the asshats that always gravitate to such games.

The Sandbox definition has never required a ffa pvp aspect ever.  It was present in some of the early sandbox games, but those developers had to make changes to the game's pvp to keep them popular.

  UsulDaNeriak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 642

2/22/12 8:20:20 AM#5

full loot pvp is fully ok in huge pvp zones like the EVE 0.0 space. open persistent territorial pvp rueld by players and with player build and owned structures is one of the best endgames you can have in a MMO.


but EVE also has a huge safe zone called Empire. its easy to avoid any pvp in this huge area. some people play EVE since years and never made PvP.


but in other indie games, you walk out of the starter city and you get ganked. this does not work. such games did all fail. you need to implement a co-existence of pvp and pve, so that non-consensual pvp is nearly impossible in most areas. if darkfall would have 2 continents of its size, one for pvp and one pve-only. i would play it. well, at least if they would fix their bot-friendly skillsystem.


played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1641

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

2/22/12 8:22:33 AM#6
Originally posted by Ozmodan

When you consider that one of the best sandbox games ever, SWG pre NGE, did not have ffa full loot pvp, that pretty much proves your theory.  IMO UO became a much better game with the addition of trammel.  Those that did not want the pvp aspect could avoid or lessen their exposure to it.  Even in Eve you can somewhat avoid the pvp aspect of the game if you so desire.

That is what has basically doomed the current crop of full loot ffa pvp games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and killed Shadowbane.  Populations are small because most people don't want to constantly deal with some of the asshats that always gravitate to such games.

The Sandbox definition has never required a ffa pvp aspect ever.  It was present in some of the early sandbox games, but those developers had to make changes to the game's pvp to keep them popular.

SWG was a hybrid. There were Themeparks.

 

 

I think the problem with FFA pvp is the cheating and exploiting more than the actual looting.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3505

2/22/12 8:25:06 AM#7

There is no sandbox definition that ppl on this board agree on. Imo the only guideline for a sandbox MMO is that character progress is not lineair. Beyond that anything goes. PVP or not PVP, PVE  questhubs or not, skill system or not, anything can be used in a sandbox MMO.


If ppl come up with a list of required features for a sandbox, they are just listing their preferences.


  Bossalinie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 630

2/22/12 8:36:42 AM#8
Originally posted by Ozmodan

When you consider that one of the best sandbox games ever, SWG pre NGE, did not have ffa full loot pvp, that pretty much proves your theory.  IMO UO became a much better game with the addition of trammel.  Those that did not want the pvp aspect could avoid or lessen their exposure to it.  Even in Eve you can somewhat avoid the pvp aspect of the game if you so desire.

That is what has basically doomed the current crop of full loot ffa pvp games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and killed Shadowbane.  Populations are small because most people don't want to constantly deal with some of the asshats that always gravitate to such games.

The Sandbox definition has never required a ffa pvp aspect ever.  It was present in some of the early sandbox games, but those developers had to make changes to the game's pvp to keep them popular.

I disagree on your point with SWG. SWG's economy was wreck almost 2 months into the game because it's lack on constant need to fill build request, yet people still gathered their asses of. SWG felt more like Evony...when every spot on the map was consumed with empty houses, you had to deal with it. In fact, the thing objects that could be destroyed by opposite factions were built with faction points, not resources. There has to be a balance. Items weren't being destroyed or decayed fast enough to support the mass amount of harvestors...not to mention the catastrophe it had when people stop building houses.

That why EvE's economy worked better with its ffapvp. Every single item in that game takes resources to build and can be destroyed. When a Titan or a POS is destroyed which took TIME and RESOURCES, miners and manufactures rejoice.

Darkfall and Mortall Online are poor examples, because it is evident that economy was not their goal, but rather the joys of PvP, which is fine if you want to go tahat route.

  User Deleted
2/22/12 8:59:16 AM#9

Originally posted by raistlinm

I remember being so excited for the development of Darkfall online then all of a sudden I kept hearing this phrase from some other fans "FFA PVP" at the time I wasn't sure what people were talking about. After a few weeks of back and forth about what should be in and what shouldn't I learned from the attitude of fans of the idea what it meant and that was all I needed to learn that regardless of all the other cool things that seemed to be a part of the games plan this was going to be something that kept me away from playing the game.


From there the conversation was never again about anything remotely sandbox it was strictly about FFA PVP and it's hard to blame the devs for taking up those peoples cause because they were such the vocal group of people.


Let me end by saying this those who advocate and fight for FFA PVP are rarey if ever the people who praise other features of sandbox gameplay.  My experience is those who want FFA PVP don't care about anything other than FFA PVP they don['t care aboout community involvment (unless we are talking about guilld runs of ganking/war) they don't care about crafting,building, or community relations for that matter.


To me FFA PVP is a feature unto itself that has little to nothing to do with actual sandbox gameplay.



 


You summed it up really good. Thanks :)


  77lolmac77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 498

2/22/12 9:00:25 AM#10
If Darkfall would make a system like EVEs with safe areas to play in and then a seperate area that would be lawless it would explode in popularity. That and having skill caps + less of a magic grind would be a great change. Hopefully if DF 2.0 ever comes out this might happen. Until then Im playing Black Ops and Single Player games. MMOs need a shot in the arm atm hopefully a sandbox/themepark hybrid can do that
  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

2/22/12 9:04:33 AM#11

The OP raises a 'sort of' interesting point.

 

However, there is little point wasting time in discussing hypothetical issues.

 

Basically, the short answer is that there are no 'sandbox PvE' games because 'AI' is not good enough for unscripted events.

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 912

2/22/12 9:09:39 AM#12

I think the big mistake current indie devs have made is the assumption that Sandbox and Full Loot FFA PvP are mutually inclusive. There's no reason why a sandbox has to have PvP at all, never mind FFA PvP.


 


The fact is that fans of FFA Full Loot systems are the minority, but a very vocal one. Proof of this is the current state of games already mentioned, i.e. Darkfall Online and Mortal Online. We constantly see threads encouraging new players to join these games by existing players (probably because they want new players to gank). Why do new players not sub to these games? They know they'll get  ganked and guess what? That's not the kind of game they want to play.


 


These FFA fans are their own worst enemy. They want new blood to join the game and then spend their days griefing low lvl players, scaring them off. It's hardly surprising that these games have such low numbers.


 


I think the biggest problem isn't the FFA PvP but the Full Loot. Nobody wants to work for hours so some dickhead who thinks it's funny can come along and ruin their day just because that's how he gets his jollies.


 


It would be interesting to see if a Dev house could get serious funding for a sandbox MMO if they just faced the fact that they don't need the PvP to be so hardcore.


  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1049

2/22/12 9:12:52 AM#13

my only issue is full loot, with that on people will do things to prevent it or avoid it all together, also no death penalty means death have no meaning, and in some cases a easy way to get back to a town, I say you will drop something random from your bag and some money is enough, making people a little afraid but not enough to explore and do things.


 


shadow bane was like that before they closed it for good, full bag loot, but anyone who palyed a longer time could just pass over and start a fight when you was farming making all that hour or so uselees, so you most of time would impose a 30 min limit of grind so you could recall withn a scroll, bank it all, sell grabage, store resources, and run back, it would make it even worse in case if you don't have a guild because most of towns are player build(with is good) but since it can be sieged anytime, most of guilds make rules like if not from a allyed guild (with most cases a mother guild had several lower guilds using his stores and services) would be on KOS, and with a high req for guilds, make any new player burned and with no growth.


 


from what archeage promise till now(and if live for that promise) it should make a win for sandbox line, with hope it can be the new base for future games


FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  robert4818

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/14/03
Posts: 661

"Everyone is born with just a spark of madness. You mustn't lose it."

--Robin Williams

2/22/12 9:23:29 AM#14

To me, the biggest problem with FFA, Fulll Loot,  PVP  is the inherent LONG TERM imbalance in risk v reward.


There is the argument that in the short term, the risk between the hunter and the prey is equal, both can kill each other, and both can take the other's stuff.  But the reality is that this isn't right as well.




  • The prey often are chosen from the non - ganker group.  Those who spend their time hunting instead of killing each other.  This means they are loaded up with loot from hunting.


  • The hunter on the other hand hunts near a banking source, and keeps himself as lightly geared/stocked as possible.  After a kill, where he reaps all the benefits the other guy spent more time to rank up, he can quickly bank and save all that loot.  The hunter also tends to choose his targets carefully, waiting until they are in the middle of another fight, he has numerical superiority, etc.  All of this goes to lessen his short term risk as well.


  • In the long run, these actions result in very little long-term risk for the hunter, as even his short term setbacks are merely bumps in the roads compared to the hauls he gets on successful kills.


In Real Lifetm, This sort of lifestyle comes with a very high risk that simply doesn't exist in most MMO's.  This risk, of course is death or long term incarceration.  Those who chose the life of crime often ended living high on the hog for a very short time.  John Dillenger ended up shot in the back of the head.  Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down in their car, etc.  Al Capone ended up spending the latter part of his life in Alcatraz.


I'm not sure what sort of heavy consequences could be had for in-game criminals that could make the playstyle fun, but also very high risk.  But I think finding that right balance would go a lont way towards making FFA PVP a much more interesting option that only a few choose to pick up.


 


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

2/22/12 9:24:01 AM#15
Originally posted by someforumguy

There is no sandbox definition that ppl on this board agree on. Imo the only guideline for a sandbox MMO is that character progress is not lineair. Beyond that anything goes. PVP or not PVP, PVE  questhubs or not, skill system or not, anything can be used in a sandbox MMO.


If ppl come up with a list of required features for a sandbox, they are just listing their preferences.

Lol. You may be right, even in the comments in the reference article they get bogged down discussing EvE/sandbox etc... *chuckles*.

This should be somewhere accessible on MMORPG.com: MMORPGs in diagrams

  • Sandbox: Every set nested within the super-set -> Simulation of a complex system
  • Themepark: Separate sets with some "items" intersecting with other sets; usually PvE main game with modes/modules of other game types attached in various amounts and positions of relationship.

Plug in for mmorpgs the 3 main features (imo: I'd include craftin/economy in OWI as derives from in game assets sources/sinks somewhere): Emphasis only:

  • Sandbox {OWI {PvE n PvP}}
  • Themepark {owi, PVE, PvP} ; variations of.

For Sandbox vs FFA PvP: In sandbox, design is intended for all to have some interaction, not all items in eg PvP need to intersect with PvE! Otherwise PvE becomes a set FULLY nested within PvP,because pvp players will gank any pve'ers! That's the difference between Sandbox-FFA-pvp & Sandbox + pvp surely? Needs to be explained in a lot of mmorpgs a lot more clearly!

TL;DR:

I like the idea of FFA-pvp in some items of the PvP set but not in all, where they don't intersect or phase out and into another set.... ie castle of the good emperor is free because the good emperor raised a city guard/militia to deal with the trouble. It can happen but in this area the pvp griefer is taking their chances - stacked against them/ punishable if caught etc.

So Sandbox should have pvp and should have some ffa-pvp (loot robbing etc) and some non-pvp.

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1641

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

2/22/12 9:25:58 AM#16
Originally posted by robert4818

To me, the biggest problem with FFA, Fulll Loot,  PVP  is the inherent LONG TERM imbalance in risk v reward.


There is the argument that in the short term, the risk between the hunter and the prey is equal, both can kill each other, and both can take the other's stuff.  But the reality is that this isn't right as well.




  • The prey often are chosen from the non - ganker group.  Those who spend their time hunting instead of killing each other.  This means they are loaded up with loot from hunting.


  • The hunter on the other hand hunts near a banking source, and keeps himself as lightly geared/stocked as possible.  After a kill, where he reaps all the benefits the other guy spent more time to rank up, he can quickly bank and save all that loot.  The hunter also tends to choose his targets carefully, waiting until they are in the middle of another fight, he has numerical superiority, etc.  All of this goes to lessen his short term risk as well.


  • In the long run, these actions result in very little long-term risk for the hunter, as even his short term setbacks are merely bumps in the roads compared to the hauls he gets on successful kills.


In Real Lifetm, This sort of lifestyle comes with a very high risk that simply doesn't exist in most MMO's.  This risk, of course is death or long term incarceration.  Those who chose the life of crime often ended living high on the hog for a very short time.  John Dillenger ended up shot in the back of the head.  Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down in their car, etc.  Al Capone ended up spending the latter part of his life in Alcatraz.


I'm not sure what sort of heavy consequences could be had for in-game criminals that could make the playstyle fun, but also very high risk.  But I think finding that right balance would go a lont way towards making FFA PVP a much more interesting option that only a few choose to pick up.


 

Predators don't tend to hunt eachother.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

2/22/12 9:45:23 AM#17

The problem with a "sandbox PvP game with no looting" is that you would end up with a strange version of Battlefield 3.


 


Perhaps there is though - World Of Tanks?




 





 

  kishe

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 1968

firefighter lvl90

2/22/12 9:47:34 AM#18

In best sandboxes (Post-trammel UO, SWG and Eve) PvP plays big part but is easily avoidable. The vocal minority wanting game-wide FFA-pvp are the niche market of sandboxes...Ganking and PKing was possible in pre-trammel UO because prey had no place else to go, nowadays PKing simply wont happen because non-masochist prey will just stay away from game-wide ffapvp games.


 


 


  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7755

Logic be damned!

2/22/12 9:51:26 AM#19
Originally posted by robert4818

To me, the biggest problem with FFA, Fulll Loot,  PVP  is the inherent LONG TERM imbalance in risk v reward.


There is the argument that in the short term, the risk between the hunter and the prey is equal, both can kill each other, and both can take the other's stuff.  But the reality is that this isn't right as well.


  • The prey often are chosen from the non - ganker group.  Those who spend their time hunting instead of killing each other.  This means they are loaded up with loot from hunting.


  • The hunter on the other hand hunts near a banking source, and keeps himself as lightly geared/stocked as possible.  After a kill, where he reaps all the benefits the other guy spent more time to rank up, he can quickly bank and save all that loot.  The hunter also tends to choose his targets carefully, waiting until they are in the middle of another fight, he has numerical superiority, etc.  All of this goes to lessen his short term risk as well.


  • In the long run, these actions result in very little long-term risk for the hunter, as even his short term setbacks are merely bumps in the roads compared to the hauls he gets on successful kills.

In Real Lifetm, This sort of lifestyle comes with a very high risk that simply doesn't exist in most MMO's.  This risk, of course is death or long term incarceration.  Those who chose the life of crime often ended living high on the hog for a very short time.  John Dillenger ended up shot in the back of the head.  Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down in their car, etc.  Al Capone ended up spending the latter part of his life in Alcatraz.


I'm not sure what sort of heavy consequences could be had for in-game criminals that could make the playstyle fun, but also very high risk.  But I think finding that right balance would go a lont way towards making FFA PVP a much more interesting option that only a few choose to pick up.

QFT - this is a great post.

The biggest problem with FFA PvP games is that it is too easy to be the bad guy - the negatives are inconsequential when compared to the positives.

-UO: red healers, Bucs Den, personal housing - no true "risk" involved in being a PK.

-EvE: low sec/null sec - PoS , alts for moving goods between high/low and null, etc. No real risk for being a PK.

Friend of mine plays EvE a lot - null sec corp, always telling me about these great battles and camping gates and blowing people up. Says he doesn't care if he loses 500 million in ships/parts in a night, easily makes that back in industry and null sec ratting. Or just buys Plex.

Where is the risk there?

The risk is all, 100% on the newbie who doesn't have the skills/connections to make that kind of isk.

Losing a 100 million battleship is nothing when you can make 100 million in an hour.

Losing a 2 million crusier is EVERYTHING when you have to grind L2 missions for a few days to make that 2 mil back.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

2/22/12 9:51:51 AM#20

sandbox doesn't need PVP.  at all.

players should have a choice to fight other players or not..  

PVP is great in real life skills based games.  with little or no vertical char progression.  but there should always be either a PVE  server with opt-in PVP, or significant PVE-only sections of the gameworld.

factions should never be of a pre-decided quantity or size.  factions should always allow as many as players care to create.

PVP does not need full loot.  AT ALL.

i'd be fine with none whatsoever.  if a reward needed to be given to killers it could just generate some goodies as if you were a mob.   where you don't lose anything, but the killer still gains something.   altho most killers don't need any other incentive other than to kill/dominate you.

however, the potential losses and gains from full loot does add alot of heart pounding excitement.  TOO MUCH for me personally.  but i think a great compromise might be that you never lose any equipped items/reagents/food, but will drop all your other carried stuff.

the worst aspect of losing all my shit in Darkfall is not so much the loss of items, but the loss of time & the boring frustration with constantly fiddling around dragging shit in and out of the bank to re/un-equip, and manage a bunch of sets of backup gear bags, etc., waiting for progress bars to change armours, etc.    not just when dying, but also to switch modes between different risk levels of fighting, or just crafting/skilling/whatever.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

9 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search