it always amazes me on these comment forums how so many people can come to absolute rock solid conclusions about games without ever having actuall played the game

"omg omg, because youve told me about x, y and z in this game, its bound to fail!!"

i wonder if its something in the genetic make up fo your average geek that makes us so arrogant and absolute in out opinion!!

"MY opinion is always right! anyone who dares dis agree with this conclusion that i have jumped to with the most minor of evidence is a complete idiot! "

It embarrasing to read sometimes.

Originally posted by ropenice                                                                                                    RPG games are about realism? You're in a fantasy, made up world casting spells, fighting with swords, trying to kill Monsters. RPG's are about fantasy, not realism. It's the immersion that mmo's need badly, as so many have little to none, and i agree that having difficult, but with experience beatable, content is important in immersing yourself in the role you play. Many people though don't play MMO's to play a role, only want to hack and slash, action zerg. That's why so many games don't have high subs-they try to cater to both and when the action gamers leave for the next game, leaves a mess for those that want to be part of a world and community for the long-term. Hopefully, Anet won't nerf/change to make heppy the gamers that won't be sticking around anyway.

 

well you didnt get what i meant, of course it's a fantasy but you need to beleive in what you're doing in that fantasy. 

Example : I go into a dungeon and I see that monsters are waiting there, doing nothing... well I like to beleive they have something to do all day long.  This is the kind of realism I'm talking about... Fantasy or not, I want to see those monster live like if they were real monster, not just "trash mobs".

Same thing about fighting a big boss monster, I want to get hurt and feel the consequences.  But if I'm a real hero, with talent, this challenge will be easier for me.  And if I'm a bad hero (or player), I don't deserve to kill the beast.  This is realism and immersion. 

We don't send a baby to war.  Too bad if you don't play well, just learn like we all did when we were noobs.  What dosen't kill you makes you stronger, well... when you're gonna resurect, try to get stronger.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by Bunks

Wasn't too happy to see a person have to confront the last boss with no armor on because of the broken armor thing. He couldn't leave to repair because it would have locked him from the instance.

 

Take note trolls- THAT is a serious issue the game has.

This is true.  Hopefully they'll just put an armor repair person near one of the portals, or allow people to carry kits with them.  Because it's not about being hard at this point, but being brutal.

 

I don't know, after years of playing MMOs where the only skill required to complete a dungeon was to show up I wouldn't mind a bit of brutality (and randomness). Also, if the dungeon is brutal, just think of the statisfaction of finally completeing it, something that is sorely missing from many games today.

I can see that it could get annoying though... maybe if they had armour repair kits but they were like 5 times the price of an NPC repair, so you could use them in an emergency, but wouldn't want to rely on them. This is assuimg the repair price is meaningful (i.e. not like Rift).

Some of these replies just make me want to scream.

I don't think I've ever actually been upset reading anything on these forums for the last 7+ years, until this.

I pray to the gods of GW2 that ArenaNet will not listen to the whiners and dumb down the dungeon content to the levels of today's MMO games.  I don't want to complete a dungeon my first run though, I don't want to be able to walk through an entire dungeon half alseep because it's so easy. 

There are 100s of EASY MMO games out there already, please, please let us gamers who enjoy challenging content have just 1 game of our own!

Even GW2's death penalty is nothing compared to what we used to have.  How about dying ONE time and losing every single thing you had on you at the time and being placed in a hostile location in the middle of no where?  How about dying once and everything you were carrying can be looted by the monsters that killed you while you run around looking for a healer?

Thinking that GW2's death penalty is harsh (even if you had to quit the dungeon to repair and had to wait to do it again, which is not the case) is just laughable to us that actually have played games with harsh dealth penalties.

And another thing, those death penalties, while frustrating and maddening sometimes, made the game better and made us better gamers because of them.

I would say, that dungeons look too easy :] you shouldn't make the dungeons so easy after playing two days all game. Good fight and its techniques comes with good experience. Also you have to know better your enemy before saying , that he is too hard to kill.

Keep in mind that most of the people who participate in a dungeon were new to the game, I mean if you start a character from 0 to 30 you will have enough knowledge to do it successfully.

I mean they were pretty bad.

Check this guy he was also new but they did a better work and finish the dungeon in 30 min:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bbBUFqZ9A

Here's MikeB's (aka Fony) walkthrough of the Dungeon. Doesn't seem that hard in the Story Mode version, seeing how he didn't even need to figure out certain boss mechanics.

 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bbBUFqZ9A

Originally posted by Master10K

Here's MikeB's (aka Fony) walkthrough of the Dungeon. Doesn't seem that hard in the Story Mode version, seeing how he didn't even need to figure out certain boss mechanics.

 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bbBUFqZ9A

Ninja'd... ^_^

 

No like the guy of the other video running to the boss again and again.... when the bosses were together with the shild active ROFL.

Originally posted by Banegrivm

Honestly, the fact that the dungeons are THAT difficult is going to be an issue. I can see them scaling them back in difficulty and later adding a hard mode. 

 

There is already a hard mode o.O

and then what the hard mode is too hard?

In the end economy always triumphs. If the dungeons are too dangerous, 90% will avoid them in the long run, which would make it a massive waste of money invested in this part.

So excited for this game! thanks for the article, and in the last paragraph second to last sentense theres a typo. It says them and I think its supposed to be they?

"Overall the dungeon was great.  The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot.  Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party.  I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "

This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time?  "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.

Originally posted by Mastada

"Overall the dungeon was great.  The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot.  Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party.  I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "

This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time?  "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.

It's just basic sense that you're more likely to give stuff away when you know that your character will be gone the next day.

Originally posted by Mastada

"Overall the dungeon was great.  The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot.  Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party.  I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "

This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time?  "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.

It used to happen all the time. Maybe if your first MMO was WoW you wouldnt understand the idea behind a good and proper community. Or maybe I just got lucky growing up in mmo's on the Solclaim server in Asherons Call. People actually helped other people just because it was the right thing to do.

That said I dont see what happened happening in live. Not with strangers. But thats because the idea of community simply doesnt exist in MMO's outside of guilds anymore. And even then you have to find the right guild.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Mastada

"Overall the dungeon was great.  The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot.  Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party.  I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "

This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time?  "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.

 

It's just basic sense that you're more likely to give stuff away when you know that your character will be gone the next day.

 

Or, you know, you can play with friends or guild members, who would also trade items around. MMO's are social games, and can be played with more than just random greedy people.

I do wonder though, if the story modes are 5 man, what happens to players that do wish to simply play on their own? Will they not be able to continue their personal story? Or what if a year after release a new player tried the game, or you roll an alt, and are having a hard time finding a group for the story mode and as such become 'stuck'?

Looks good to me, thanks for the writeup.

Originally posted by Mastada

"Overall the dungeon was great.  The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot.  Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party.  I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "

This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time?  "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.

 

In EQ, happened a lot. Now in DDO, people at least roll for it, but I've been in many groups-not just guild ones, but PUGs too, that people give good items to others if not for their class.

Originally posted by Banegrivm

Honestly, the fact that the dungeons are THAT difficult is going to be an issue. I can see them scaling them back in difficulty and later adding a hard mode. The dungeons sound a little too "hard core" for the mainstream player base. I think there should be a certain amount of difficulty, but people who play well should be able to finish a dungeon without dying. If a death is "guaranteed" to happen, I think that's a serious design flaw. Most people that play games want to enjoy themselves and not have a negative experience every time they enter some part of the game. It's fine if it happens as a result of bad play, but I don't think that's fine if it's an intended part of game play. I'll reserve judgment for when I get to play my first dungeon on my own however. One thing my experience as a gamer has taught me is that what you often hear versus what you actually experience are often two very different things. 

But Anet has said that the dungeons essentially are the one part of the game that would best suit players who are really looking for a pve challenge, similar to raiding in many MMOs.  At some point, there has to be some content to provide this challenge to players seeking one, however small a minority.  The VAST majority of the pve game--the open world dynamic events, world boss encounters, and your personal storyline--will be sufficiently easy for any player to experience.

You're also not "guaranteed" to die.  Each dungeon will just be really hard until everyone learns them, meaning most players will probably die quite a bit at first.  But as everyone gets some experience, all runs for players of all skill levels will gradually become smoother and smoother.  

In a game that lacks empowering progression incentives for the traditional "hardcore" pve player, achievements and gear sets (even without stat upgrades) from clearing dungeons can serve as the one badge of honor.  

If the average or sub-par player has a difficult time in dungeons initially, they need not fret because they will eventually get to complete them as all players improve.  Until then, the players who manage to beat the dungeons actually have something to feel accomplished about--at least for a little while.  

There's also story-mode dungeons versus explorable mode, so there's room to adjust difficulty to keep both demographics happy. 

Originally posted by raapnaap

Originally posted by grimfall

Or, you know, you can play with friends or guild members, who would also trade items around. MMO's are social games, and can be played with more than just random greedy people.

I do wonder though, if the story modes are 5 man, what happens to players that do wish to simply play on their own? Will they not be able to continue their personal story? Or what if a year after release a new player tried the game, or you roll an alt, and are having a hard time finding a group for the story mode and as such become 'stuck'?

 

 It is an MMO afterall. I dont think its too much to ask that some portion of the game require interaction with other players to complete. There are plenty of things to do that do not require large time investments or finding a particular group that can be enjoyed on the fly. I personally think they will lose more players trying to cater to the few that want a single player RPG for an MMO than by catering to those who actually want to play a multiplayer game.

What I love the most in GW 1 as also in other games, is parts in which Teamwork really matters.

By that I mean not only in PvP in which its obvious, I mean in PvE.

From what I saw and read so far, they took the right approach with this.

Unexperienced teams/players will be able to bond more to overcome the "impossible", find new strategies everytime depending on the classes involved and have something to work on together if they want to put their hands on these rewards.

What some people that said "I don't wanna carry tons of armor with me the whole time" forget is the waypoints system GW2 will offer and GW 1 already offered (In GW 2 is it even improved). This makes easy to say "hey, lets go grab our stuff, prepare and meet at the entrance or tp as a team there".

The other thing is, it makes it not only more fun, it makes it also more real.

I mean noone would love to stay in a cave full of ghosts for just in case a "customer" will come by asking for repair right? ;)

As a matter of fact, with a good coordination, healing/ressurect when needed, no armor will break there.

It doesn't break after the first time, you have at least 6 chances before it does.

Heck, if you got a drop of a cheaper armor there just switch so your precious one won't break if you die once more OR play a more supporting role while the others try to cover you and prevent you from dying again.

Put some good teamwork there and enough effort and the rewards will be yours.

The only people I can think of having issues with that will be:

- rushers

- soloers

- people that need a dictionary to find the word teamwork first

- selfish people that care only about others to cover their butts while they never want to return the favor due to the fact that they are too busy with themselves.

Work together as a team, learn to combo your skills and make them more effective, watch the back of your teammates and the rewards will be yours.

If the press people that had no clue or previous experience with the game could do it, you as mmo experienced players will definately be able to aswell.

As a sidenote: Test it first and if its indeed too cumbersome, post your complain and how do you think it would be better so the devs can eventually adjust things OR talk with others about strategies that would help not only you but also the whole community to finish the instance "easier".