Success: It's quick and easy. 

Failure: But it's part of what has led the industry down the path of E-Sport gaming and non-immersion.  It's rough to have to get a group together for a dungeon.  It takes time, getting to know folks, becoming part of a community.  But isn't that what the RPG part of mmo was always about?  If I wanted massively multi player eating, I'd go to McDonald's.  If I want something more meaningful, I'd seek out a small restaurant with high quality food.  Not only would the taste improve, but the folks around me might just be a little bit more into how the food is presented then just a ready made box of hamburger.

In the day...dungeon grinds were about the challenges as a team of folks that exist in your escape world, whether it was EQ, Vanguard, Dark Age, etc.  You got to know folks.  Being a turd was not acceptable, item stealing, and or just being childish usually limited your gaming experience. You were forced in a positive way, into not only the "massively multi-player" part of gaming, but into the social aspect of the RPG experience.    Granted, these days, there is no RPG other than the pic on the screen.  It's all about the gear, and dude, why are you running as a tank when you are heal specced, and demeaning someone who isn't in leveling gear and can't touch the dps of anyone else.

Times have changed.  So now, you can just leave the group at any time, do whatever you want, and talk to no one.  If IF you are lucky, you get a, "hello," a "sup," or what have you.  Sometimes in WoW (as the corporate example of all instanced theme park mmorpgs), when I actually do get so bored I dungeon finder a group, folks will just vanish in the middle of a pull (not link dead, but, they just left).  This tends to happen after an item isn't won on a roll, or after an item is won.  Chances are, you will NEVER see that person again anyway, so who cares, right?

Sadly, the same happens in pvp.  Who cares about the group, let's all solo our heads off.  Anyway - until mmorpgs start focusing on the grouping part, really trying to focus on what makes it enjoyable to group, then we will be filled with SW:ToR/GW2/Rift games ad nauseum. 

/my two cents

Back in the day MMORPGS required you to have some basic social skills and willingness to mingle with other people online if you wanted to accomplish something.
 

With cross server LFG tools you can just keep to yourself and not spend an iota of your time being social with anyone and still progress like everybody else.

If that's a good or a bad thing depends on your personality and your motivation for playing MMORPGS in the first place.

Cross server LFG and PvP has removed most if not all feeling of "us against them" and people have gotten so used to this instant gratification that they laugh at you when you talk about community feeling because they either never seen it or have forgotten all about it.

Got annoyed when they added cross server battlegrounds in WoW and downright disgusted when they added cross server LFG and now it seems to have taken over almost all of the mainstream MMO's. Games that don't have it yet will get it soon. Bioware for instance said they had learned from the mistakes Blizzard made with cross server application and that they had no intention of making the same mistake, yet now they are openly talking about adding it to swtor...

Sadly the majority of the vocal players want it and want it now. The rest of us are just not vocal enough or we are a dying breed of gamers.

I think we have to remember scope and size here as well.

Back when MMO and RPG meant what they actually stood for a great MMO barely bolstered more than 1 Million in subscribers.

Saying those of us who played back in they hay day of "community" are still playing would put us at roughly 1/10th or even less of todays current MMO population. Considering most of us haven't straight up given up on the drivel they call an MMORPG today.

We also have to keep in mind that there is a whole new generation or two of gamers playing these days. People who play MMOs now would never have touched them before WoW was introduced. These are people who don't put much thought into the MMO or the RPG aspect of the game, and a majority of those that do only role play the "chat troll" or "ninja douche."  I see many of todays gamers as the hit it and quit it type of player. "I came to win and everyone else be damned, there is too an I in team, because I am the team..." etc etc, you get the drift.

Basically a game medium which was meant to absorb hours upon hours of your time, immerse you and make you feel like part of the world, has gone to your typical ADD gamer. Hence the tools most of older MMO gamers see as eating away at the community aspect of the game. As well as the major mini game aspect of everything we commit time to. While I do enjoy not having to set a 3 am alarm for Monday mornings Relic Raid, and not spending 8 hours pushing through, or camping boss content, I miss all of the community aspect the older games fosters.

I personally see these tools eating the MMORPG Genre from the inside out. The fact that new games can't hold the attention of even the "now now now, mememe" crowd is saying something. They seemed to have traded immersion, innovation and creativity for the almighty $.

Things need to change, and it's not the subscription model.

Posting in a new and exciting thread #341653

After the dungeon finder was put in WoW, I created events using the connections I already had.  Nothing really changed. 

I still used the server forums and my own user channels to host PvP events in the world.  People still attended.  None of the attendees magically turned into antisocial neckbeards when the update came (well, at least for those that weren't already antisocial neckbeards).  Many fun battles were held, even if the rewards were miniscule.  We weren't hosting the events for rewards anyway.

I ran with my guild when I wanted to do a dungeon / raid - there was much socializing.  We were thankful that we didn't have to mess with meeting stones, and since we've 'explored' the entrances of the instances a thousand times already, we didn't care much for not seeing / having to travel the distance.

I personally think that the dungeon finder update separated the crowd that was really looking for socialization from the crowd that was just interested in socializing for rewards.  I agree that a staggering amount of people fit in the latter - they didn't want to put in any effort to socialize anyway, they were just forced to spam LFGs and join a guild they had no business in to see content.  So it gave them a reason to stop spamming lfg and allowed them to view guilds as a structure they should join more for the companionship (raids are another topic, but - made up statistic warning - it's only around 5% of players who see them anyway)

People like us, who were social from the start and were all about doing things with the community like hosting events (for fun and not reward) were not really affected by the finder.  The world still turned, and the sky stayed in the air.  The dungeon finder is just a path of least resistance to your reward, and so it attracts people who are in it for the reward. 

If someone complains about the decline of socializing in MMOs, I have to wonder if they were really interested in socializing or if it was only a means to an end.  In addition, I would recommend those people host their own events and network with their own server communities and guilds.  Yes, it takes a lot of effort and it's a little intimidating since you actually have to put effort into socializing (whereas before, people who were forced into socializing just came to you since it was the only way to get rewarded), but if you're so passionate about socializiation like you guys say you are, I'm sure you can handle it.

Personally, I think this is all a side-effect of overly-instanced content breaking down the community. There's nothing tying me to the game. No real sense of loss if I want to go do something else in the middle of playing (it's an instance, who cares?), no reason to build bridges when I can burn them and get a random group later, no need to seek out a solid guild if I don't feel like it. Most MMOs have lax death penalties, so I have basically infinite attempts if the group is willing to keep going after I wipe everyone because I went to look up a recipe for pesto chicken.

There is literally no reason to try hard in instanced content other than my own personal beliefs in "gaming courtesy".

The only thing that was 'broken' was people (who did not want to socialize) being forced to socialize to get rewarded.  Better off that the dungeon finder happened, anyway - it was clear who was into socializing because they wanted to, and who did it because it was in their way of a piece of loot.

In fact, in addition to what I've said in the post above, I have to say that the dungeon finder strengthened the community we had created on our server.  We got to play with people who were genuinely interested in having a good time with other people - not those who sought out friendship to serve their own needs.  I can see how a socialite that craved attention would be bothered by the update (due to less 'new' people coming to them to get connected and get loot, making them feel important), but I never associated myself with the cravings of rewards or attention anyway, and was happy with the community we grew.

All one click Dungeon finder are degrading the MMO genre.

Originally posted by Khaeros

Posting in a new and exciting thread #341653

 

I have to say, yours was a shockingly insightful post. Guild membership and interaction with strangers shifted from "I have to or I can't play most of the game" to "I want to because it's fun to be social" due to dungeon finders making LFG not an issue; if that's something that really happened (and I believe you when you say that you've witnessed it yourself), that is a very potent counterargument.

Dungeon Finder could well be the downfall of the MMO genre. After all, just look at all the threads created rehashing the same things over and over. Pretty much points to the idea that the genre is indeed dead and they have nowhere to turn.

Originally posted by Comaf

Failure: But it's part of what has led the industry down the path of E-Sport gaming and non-immersion.  It's rough to have to get a group together for a dungeon.  It takes time, getting to know folks, becoming part of a community.  But isn't that what the RPG part of mmo was always about?  If I wanted massively multi player eating, I'd go to McDonald's.  If I want something more meaningful, I'd seek out a small restaurant with high quality food.  Not only would the taste improve, but the folks around me might just be a little bit more into how the food is presented then just a ready made box of hamburger.

I will take e-sport and lobby gaming as a success.

Remember the G part .. it is about having fun in a good game.

LFD/LFG does not prevent you from playing with real friends, nor guildies. All it does is to make finding a group, when you don't have anyone to play with, faster and less cumbersome.

I remember the EQ days .. it was HORRIBLE. Spending time trying to get a group (and don't tell me it is about socialization, often it is nothing more than shouting your class & level over and over again) is a lot of non-fun.

Lastly, i do not play games to socialiize. I can do that in real life or in a chat room. Before LFD/LFR, how often do I chat about stuff in dungeon except how to proceed? NOT OFTEN. So nothing changes, except the game is much better now.

I fully endorse this direction of MMORPgaming. In fact, Diablo 3, which strictly is not a MMORPG, probably is going to be best, a shining example going down this path.

Rift x-server dungeon finder has worked fine. I meet new people all the time. Just because the community in WoW is crap and represented by pricks does not mean the x-server lfg is to blame.

Take my word I was getting ninja looted and screwed over by groups long before WoW put in that x-server thing.

Originally posted by Puremallace

Rift x-server dungeon finder has worked fine. I meet new people all the time. Just because the community in WoW is crap and represented by pricks does not mean the x-server lfg is to blame.

 

Take my word I was getting ninja looted and screwed over by groups long before WoW put in that x-server thing.

And there is nothing wrong with ninja loot. It is a two-way street. You can always do it yourself.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And there is nothing wrong with ninja loot. It is a two-way street. You can always do it yourself.

You do realize, that extending that logic would take us to the realm of Godwin's law? :)

But jokes aside, a LFG tool is a symptom in my opinion, not the disease, wow made it successfully to nearly 12 millions over 4 years, it changed nothing in itself, the game has changed, the expectation the average player and the developers had after wotlk hit about the general gameplay and "what do players do all day" has changed, the players are not expected to die in normal dungeons for hours, they are not expected to chase after quests and reputations, they are just expected to gather gear and tokens to get to the raids where the "main game" is. In this situation a lfg tool helps and is a good thing.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And there is nothing wrong with ninja loot. It is a two-way street. You can always do it yourself.

You do realize, that extending that logic would take us to the realm of Godwin's law? :)

But jokes aside, a LFG tool is a symptom in my opinion, not the disease, wow made it successfully to nearly 12 millions over 4 years, it changed nothing in itself, the game has changed, the expectation the average player and the developers had after wotlk hit about the general gameplay and "what do players do all day" has changed, the players are not expected to die in normal dungeons for hours, they are not expected to chase after quests and reputations, they are just expected to gather gear and tokens to get to the raids where the "main game" is. In this situation a lfg tool helps and is a good thing.

Flame on!

:)

I am viewing it as a feature. It is neither a symptom nor a disease. If that is what makes the game more fun, it is a good thing.

they only reason there are differnt servers in the frist place is that they cant fit everyone all on one becuase of current  tech limit. cross server trys to fix this problem.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

And there is nothing wrong with ninja loot. It is a two-way street. You can always do it yourself.

You do realize, that extending that logic would take us to the realm of Godwin's law? :)

But jokes aside, a LFG tool is a symptom in my opinion, not the disease, wow made it successfully to nearly 12 millions over 4 years, it changed nothing in itself, the game has changed, the expectation the average player and the developers had after wotlk hit about the general gameplay and "what do players do all day" has changed, the players are not expected to die in normal dungeons for hours, they are not expected to chase after quests and reputations, they are just expected to gather gear and tokens to get to the raids where the "main game" is. In this situation a lfg tool helps and is a good thing.

Flame on!

:)

 

I am viewing it as a feature. It is neither a symptom nor a disease. If that is what makes the game more fun, it is a good thing.

A symptom is not inherently negative or positive, its a subjective deviation from normal, and i have explained why i view it as such, you may disagree and we may argue about the design change that made this feature desirable and needed, ofc, but this may take a new thread :)

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

A symptom is not inherently negative or positive, its a subjective deviation from normal, and i have explained why i view it as such, you may disagree and we may argue about the design change that made this feature desirable and needed, ofc, but this may take a new thread :)

Flame on!

:)

 

"its a subjective deviation from normal" .. well this feature is getting more and more popular, so it is no longer a deviation from normal. It has BECOME normal.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

"its a subjective deviation from normal" .. well this feature is getting more and more popular, so it is no longer a deviation from normal. It has BECOME normal.

Not for me, and not for the players which foolishly think it was "the thing which has destroyed mmo community"

And you dont even want to go into things which are becoming more popular, yet we do not generally think they are "normal" or good :)

Flame on!

:)

Destroys all sense of community. Might aswell just have a lobby system you log on and at charecter creator you can pick your a dungeon you want to do today.. Push Cross Realm button. When everyone is found you start playing.

DIABLO annyone??