You know what's funny?

If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.

Only thing about this genre failing is the community.

The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.

Failing...

Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.

It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.

Originally posted by BadSpock

You know what's funny?

If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.

Only thing about this genre failing is the community.

The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.

Failing...

Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.

It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.

I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by BadSpock

You know what's funny?

If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.

Only thing about this genre failing is the community.

The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.

Failing...

Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.

It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.

I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.

Maybe, but I doubt they'll really care because they have made and will make ridiculous amounts of money on Kingdoms of Armular or whatever and Mass Effect 3... and then not care even more when the next EA sports game comes out and actually prints its own money.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

I think given the money spent and how the game plays, SWTOR will hit EA hard in the pocket.

When I ran the numbers, even in the worst case scenario they broke even ~5 months after launch.  And I used some really conservative values for that estimate (the game losing 30% of subscribers every single month.)

If TOR doesn't bleed subs like that (past the first month, where you expect to lose ~60% of your initial buyers) then it's actually going to be solidly profitable for EA depending on how many employees they've kept on the game.

Originally posted by Stathis1

Because today's games are linear non innovative and the game makes the community, and it should have been the other way around. It was wow that appealed at the masses, and almost every other big title had to appeal on the masses too to gain a piece of the pie. But this game, and this kind of games are created to make you do repetitve things at endgame without a real effect on the gameworld. If they had features like daoc did with faction vs faction and things that generally changed the gameworld depending on who won e.t.c, it would be different. The communities would be overall different. So, endgame should be the second phase of the game, when the game really begins, like in daoc, or other similar games. I've said it again, player driven worlds, or partially driven at least. Swotr for example could have been a blast if there was actually something to do in endgame other than repetitive warzones, or raids. Putting more of that into the game won't make it better. Personally i do not like arenas and all these stuff in mmos, i like the whole game to be an arena, or at least a big part of it. No instanced crap that just give you items which you wear to go do more instanced crap. This is not what true mmorpgs were about. All these go mainly for pvp games. And if someone doesn't like pvp, then for the pve'ers well i guess something close to eq and eq2 is the deal. But most complaints are from pvp'ers for the reasons i described.

 

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by nikoliath

....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums.

 

*Sarcasm detector alarm sounding*

 

Not intended as hate or troll, here's my paraphrased version...  If  you people think that the design of a holy grail game is so obvious, go build one.

 

My response... Yeah, if only it was so easy.

To make money on a large budget game it has to be mainstream (easy and casual friendly).  If it's mainstream those who want depth and difficulty aren't happy.

To make profit on a niche game with depth and difficulty it has to be low budget.  If it's niche, then people who want mainstream aren't happy.  If it's low budget then people who want AAA polish aren't happy.

To run on common consumer computer hardware it has to be low-poly and highly optimized.  If it's low-poly then people who want "immersive" [sic] graphics aren't happy.

 

So the holy grail game is big budget, is mainstream, is easy to play, has depth and difficulty, has AAA polish, runs on any hardware, and has graphics that look and feel like a CG movie.   ... and we haven't even touched on sandbox vs. themepark.

 

To that I say good-luck.

I don't need to be an engineer working for Toyota to understand cars.    Or to know a sub-standard car from a good one.

So as a consumer, when I buy a car, I expect certain features to be present.    Lets take side-impact air bags.    Consumer demand, effecting the market, has caused Toyota to put them in the models I'm interested in since 2007 as STANDARD EQUIPMENT.   Same goes with anti-lock brakes and electronic stability controls.

So, if you, as an auto manufacturor, after spending a BILLION DOLLARS to develop a new model, neglects to put these safety features in...   Oh well, I'm not going to buy the car and tell my friends to not buy the care because it's missing a key safety featuers.

Now, if you want to troll me and tell me it's not fair to have my opinion because Vanilla Toyota didn't have side impact bags, stability controls or anti-lock brakes in 2004 so I shouldn't expect these features and anyone who complains about a car that doesn't have these important safety feautures is a troll...   And they can just design their own car...

I'm going to laugh at you.,   Possibly mock you.  

But, more importantly, I'm going to point out that if auto companies can learn to 'keep up with the auto Joneses,' so can FRIGGIN BIOWARE which is what you post is about...    So, no more LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE posts...   I don't care about Vanilla WoW in 2004...   What I care is in 2011 SWTOR is leaving off 'standard features" that are normal, expected features and should be part and parcel of ANY AAA MMO.

Companies are in this business because it's a great way to make a quick profit.

Advertising is key when you're releasing a game (not just an MMO), if you make a trailer that looks amazing, guess what? People are going to buy your game. That's is our biggest weakness as humans, we see something that looks good, and we want it at any cost.

Say you see a hot chick in a bar and you want to tap dat ass, how do you know she hasn't got aids? Exactly, you don't, and the only way you're gonna know is if you risk your health (money in gaming terms) to try it and see what it's like.

I used to do that all the time (with MMOs), and every single one I did it with was a big regret, because all of them sucked ass.

I've now learnt the error of my ways, SWTOR looked good, but was it good? Nope. I didn't try it out, I wait for the reviews and everyone said it sucked. Free money for me!

TERA looked good, didn't get into beta, people say it sucks, I'm not getting it, free money for me.

Titan.. on the other hand.. that's a game I just GOT to play for myself, simply because of the reputation of the company who is making it.

Even if it fails, I don't care, cause it's Blizzard.. who once had the BEST damn MMO of all time, many, many years ago...

Originally posted by BadSpock

You know what's funny?

If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.

Only thing about this genre failing is the community.

The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.

Failing...

Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.

It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.

Logic dictates you didnt read my post and are repsonding to the title. It's a tongue in cheek jab at the countless "experts" that tell us what's wrong with the industry, when in actual fact, as you point out, the industry is booming.

OP - I like the way you think.

summed up

If you forum trolls know so bloody much, go put your money where your mouths are & be constructive.

Originally posted by Kimmyboy

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by BadSpock

You know what's funny?

If you imagine the publishers and development studios at places like Blizzard/Activision, EA/Bioware, CCP, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, etc. actually reading threads like this and laughing their asses off as their financial balance sheets just keep showing positive numbers.

Only thing about this genre failing is the community.

The genre is bigger, has more games, has more players, and makes more money today than it ever has in the short history of the MMORPG genre existing.

Failing...

Just because you don't like it or dislike game X or Y doesn't mean the genre is failing.

It may have failed your personal vision of what kind of games you'd like to see, as it has with ME, but the genre has not and is not failing kids.

Logic dictates you didnt read my post and are repsonding to the title. It's a tongue in cheek jab at the countless "experts" that tell us what's wrong with the industry, when in actual fact, as you point out, the industry is booming.

Yeah, but ... isn't it odd these "experts" were mostly right these last 6 years too ? I mean, ex EA Brown said their end goal was a market potential of 12.000.000 players and the goal was to make a monthly "100 million dollars" because WOW had those figures ...

I quote:

 

""If we do this successfully, we can capture the potential 12 million users, we all know that MMO players and gaming market rapidly growing in the West, and has formed a large group, we have seen the opportunity and the market can attract at least 12 million people."

 

reference: http://www.uswtor.com/NewsInfo-43.html

 

Now I ask you: WHO were the most realistic?, The posters saying (after Beta) "No way SW TOR will get to that because of XXXX (fill in)."

 

Or the EA financial director who had a salary of multi million dollars and apparently has no clue ?

 

And no, the subscription based market is not booming, it is struggling.

 

Yes very clever of you... now link the section where i stated that the subscription model is booming.

Yeah, expecting 12m subs is a bit naive. That said since when has realism won you financial backing?

The sadest part of this is some of you actually do believe that no effort is ever made by the development teams ~ sod it, that'll do they'll never notice ~. Any large scale, complex and expensive project is an undertaking in itself, let alone bringing it all together on budget and on schedule. You muppets talk as if the designers didn't even think about feature B or X, I assure you they most probably did but these things stayed on the story board or ended up on the cutting room floor - for now.

Oh but hang on! Aren't ALL mmorpgs "finished" the second they go gold? 

Sorry Boiware, Cryptic etc Blizzard had 8 years, EvE online 9 years.... You get 2 months!

I'm pretty sure no mmo or very few other than WoW achieved what investors aimed for. Turbine tried the F2P model with D&D online and it worked so others went down the same path otherwise those games were probably shut down by now.

What I mean is that they are having proft but nowhere near as market potential. And it's too early to say SWTOR is succesful. If you like it that's alright but I think people bashing it back and forth (with reason in my opinion) is making you mad.

People so easily expect a game to release in the same condition, with all the feature-set of every other game ever made previously.

SWTOR -  in dev 5 years. released December 20 2011  --- 5 years 2 months overall dev time

WoW - in dev 5 years,released November 23 2004 ---------12 years 2 months overall dev time

EVE - in Dev 5 years released May 2003 ----------------------- 12 years 8 months overall dev time

EverQuest - in dev  3 years released March 16 1999 ------  15 years 10 months overall dev time

Now if you had some idea of the total number of people working on a game over it's lifetime so far you could have an idea of the "man-hours" of each title's development, which might drastically alter those numbers above & be much more relative in terms of how much work has been done on each title.

Expecting a game to newly release in direct fully-matching competion to all of it's contemporaries is narrow-minded & short-sighted, the longer those titles have been out the bigger & bigger the budgets & teams would need to be to match them on release, completely & utterly inflationary & unrealistic.

Originally posted by nikoliath

....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x".

We have an abundance, nay over abundance of hardened industry veterans who lament the failings of the genre. Why punish us, go forth and create!

We have hundreds or market anylists that are able to "predict" what will happen and when. They tell us what is and isn't popular and why it isn't popular and like nothing more than rubbing our noses in our own ignorant filth. And yet none of these folks seem to return to their offices and continue the work they surely started before this industry wide "talent strike" took place.

There are game engine experts here that seem able to bemoan a developers choice in engine and go into lengthy detail, accurate we assume, about what said engine can and cannot do. Please, I beg of you, go back to work and make us your masterpiece so that we, the great unwashed can enjoy the fruits of your labour.

Amongst us there are hardened team leaders that know how to encourage and nuture a team of developers to create nearly a decades worth of content and new never before seen features in only 3 years! Go, now, please! By 2015 we could all be playing the new holy grail and you will be rich and famous.

I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!

 

Amen.

That's the way it is in the music industry, too.  You have one band playing on stage, and 10 bands watching, saying "we can do better".  After which they go home and play in their basements til' they break up.

Except here, most don't get as far as the basement.  I don't think I've seen more than 3 people on this forum even TRYING to develop something of their own.  Most just come here to bitch about games, the people that like them, and how stupid they are for doing so.

Yes, this billion dollar industry is failing.

Originally posted by Kimmyboy

Originally posted by Skuz

People so easily expect a game to release in the same condition, with all the feature-set of every other game ever made previously.

Expecting a game to newly release in direct fully-matching competion to all of it's contemporaries is narrow-minded & short-sighted, the longer those titles have been out the bigger & bigger the budgets & teams would need to be to match them on release, completely & utterly inflationary & unrealistic.

 

 

Since companies are always working on games, and there are several companies doing so, a game having all the features of current games means they would never go live.

TSW will have to have a dozen endgame raids, a means for players to create missions(STO, CoX),  Full VO with cinematic cutscenes, minigames, 6 starter areas, an archeologist system, instanced 10 minute quests with some random generated content(LotRO), dynamic invasions(Rift), full visual character and skill customization, at least 2 factions, full, unique content for about 1.5-2 characters per faction to level in, full PvP, non-instanced housing and player run cities, seige content, mounted combat...

...I could do this all day.

Oh yeah, WoW's new expac is coming out, so TSW will have to be postponed  to make sure they get everything from Pandaville into the game, as well.

Originally posted by timtrack

Yes, this billion dollar industry is failing.

You should read OP's before you respond to them.  He was being facetious.

Originally posted by nikoliath

....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x".

We have an abundance, nay over abundance of hardened industry veterans who lament the failings of the genre. Why punish us, go forth and create!

 

We have hundreds or market anylists that are able to "predict" what will happen and when. They tell us what is and isn't popular and why it isn't popular and like nothing more than rubbing our noses in our own ignorant filth. And yet none of these folks seem to return to their offices and continue the work they surely started before this industry wide "talent strike" took place.

 

There are game engine experts here that seem able to bemoan a developers choice in engine and go into lengthy detail, accurate we assume, about what said engine can and cannot do. Please, I beg of you, go back to work and make us your masterpiece so that we, the great unwashed can enjoy the fruits of your labour.

 

Amongst us there are hardened team leaders that know how to encourage and nuture a team of developers to create nearly a decades worth of content and new never before seen features in only 3 years! Go, now, please! By 2015 we could all be playing the new holy grail and you will be rich and famous.

 

I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!

 

Point taken....too many arm chair devs giving sophmoric advice on forums as to somehow do better than the industry experts that actually earn a pay check.

With that said....these are public forums for people who are interested in the subject matter to discuss various topics related to MMO gaming.  While there are some posts that are less thought out than others......there are some interesting & competing points of view presented.  People debate issues they feel passionately about.  The public discussion forums are exactly the place to do that.

As to the topic of the MMO industry failing....while most of these attempts to reproduce WOW's success have inked out marginal profits.....you cannot deny that most of these endeavors have not lived up to expectations....OR have come any where near what Blizzard has been able to acomlish. 

Yet no matter how much money a publisher throws at a game, they can't seen to understand why.  And thats what people have been talking about.  That seems like a fair dicussion point no?

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by nikoliath

....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x".

We have an abundance, nay over abundance of hardened industry veterans who lament the failings of the genre. Why punish us, go forth and create!

We have hundreds or market anylists that are able to "predict" what will happen and when. They tell us what is and isn't popular and why it isn't popular and like nothing more than rubbing our noses in our own ignorant filth. And yet none of these folks seem to return to their offices and continue the work they surely started before this industry wide "talent strike" took place.

There are game engine experts here that seem able to bemoan a developers choice in engine and go into lengthy detail, accurate we assume, about what said engine can and cannot do. Please, I beg of you, go back to work and make us your masterpiece so that we, the great unwashed can enjoy the fruits of your labour.

Amongst us there are hardened team leaders that know how to encourage and nuture a team of developers to create nearly a decades worth of content and new never before seen features in only 3 years! Go, now, please! By 2015 we could all be playing the new holy grail and you will be rich and famous.

I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!

 

Amen.

That's the way it is in the music industry, too.  You have one band playing on stage, and 10 bands watching, saying "we can do better".  After which they go home and play in their basements til' they break up.

Except here, most don't get as far as the basement.  I don't think I've seen more than 3 people on this forum even TRYING to develop something of their own.  Most just come here to bitch about games, the people that like them, and how stupid they are for doing so.

So as a precondition of arguing any point on anything....you must be a licesed professional in said field?

Without a doubt....any developer commenting on this or that has more crediabilty than most in the realm of MMO development, publishing, etc.  But that doesn't keep people trained in Business from commenting on good or poor business decisions.  It doesn't keep trained IT professionals from commenting on good or poor IT or data mgmt decisions.  It also doesn't keep people who have been playing these kind of games for 10+ years from commenting on what is fun and what isn't.

Originally posted by RajCaj

As to the topic of the MMO industry failing....while most of these attempts to reproduce WOW's success have inked out marginal profits.....you cannot deny that most of these endeavors have not lived up to expectations....OR have come any where near what Blizzard has been able to acomlish. 

Yet no matter how much money a publisher throws at a game, they can't seen to understand why.  And thats what people have been talking about.  That seems like a fair dicussion point no?

 

How can we really be sure that's the case?  Aside from maybe WAR's developers, and... sure, Rift's MARKETING department("You're not in Azeroth, anymore"), can we really assume that developers are expecting WoW-like success?  I remember Funcom saying AoC would have to have about 50k subs to break even; that doesn't sound like a design plan that expects to have millions of subs.  Even TOR with its 500k sub "break even" point doesn't sound like it's seeking to topple a 12 million sub game.

As to us armchair quarterbacks, I have little doubt some among us have probably made the "WoW killer" comment(not me, I assure you).  I keep one quote memorized from years ago:

"Anybody who thinks this game(WAR) is going to have ANYTHING south of 3 million subs is smoking some serious WoW-crack."

Personally, I think WoW's success was due to a perfect storm at just the right time.  I don't expect it to be repeated, EVER, in this genre.  JMO.

Originally posted by Skuz

People so easily expect a game to release in the same condition, with all the feature-set of every other game ever made previously.

SWTOR -  in dev 5 years. released December 20 2011  --- 5 years 2 months overall dev time

WoW - in dev 5 years,released November 23 2004 ---------12 years 2 months overall dev time

EVE - in Dev 5 years released May 2003 ----------------------- 12 years 8 months overall dev time

EverQuest - in dev  3 years released March 16 1999 ------  15 years 10 months overall dev time

Now if you had some idea of the total number of people working on a game over it's lifetime so far you could have an idea of the "man-hours" of each title's development, which might drastically alter those numbers above & be much more relative in terms of how much work has been done on each title.

Expecting a game to newly release in direct fully-matching competion to all of it's contemporaries is narrow-minded & short-sighted, the longer those titles have been out the bigger & bigger the budgets & teams would need to be to match them on release, completely & utterly inflationary & unrealistic.

 

It's not just a question of time but also direction.

I can run due south all I want, chances are I'll be dead before I reach the north pole.

It seems to me that the people in charge of these WoW cloning business ventures aren't MMO players themselves and therefore are incapable of grasping what makes an MMO work.

Anyone who has once loved an MMO can tell you in an instant why WoW worked and why SWTOR doesn't, you don't need to be a senior developper in a big studio for that, all you need is to have lived the experience at least once and have enough intelligence to understand why the game had that effect on you.

My guess is at Bioware (and other fail MMO developpers of today) they have the intelligence, they have the talent and the experience in game development but they lack a leader with solid player MMO experience (or any other type of multiplayer RPG for that matter, online or off) who knows wtf he's doing.